More Anti Science Hysteria

[renormalised (Carl)]

Words are the most powerful tools (and weapons) we have. It's not the fact that this guy and guys like him, are lunatics. It's that their words, as Craig has pointed out, resonate with those that have difficulty understanding science (or anything else, for that matter) and are swayed by the "charm" people like him bring to their words. It's people like him that show absolutely no responsibility for anything they say or write which makes them dangerous. They can and do influence a lot of people, especially youngster. Those youngster might grow up to hold important positions in society and if they've been indoctrinated with rubbish like Gaede's nonsense, the consequences could be far reaching and very onerous. Although, it can be just as such for adults, now. You only have to look at what's happening in the US and to a lesser extent in the UK and elsewhere in the West with fundamentalism in politics, education and religion. Freedom of speech and thought comes with a great responsibility to those around you. If you abuse this, then that freedom becomes something else...something that needs to be limited.

Just like a child-parent relationship...the child isn't mature enough to take responsibility for themselves, so the parent assumes that responsibility. Although the child mightn't understand why and rebel at times, they eventually grow to understand why, or if not they become delinquent. It's the same for the above. If people aren't ready, willing or able to assume proper social responsibility for their freedoms, especially the freedom to speak and think responsibly, then they forfeit that right and should be treated accordingly, until they learn to honour that freedom with the respect and maturity it deserves.

[bojan]

And, yes, we need more showmen ..
You must have noticed the huge impact of those young, good-looking scientists on a general population
For average Joe or Jane, this is much nicer to look at than at ugly agro, winging scientists or pseudo scientists (remember Richard's Hoagland's hair style? I bet this was a huge factor in winning hearts of many followers )

[renormalised (Carl)]

Hoagland looks like the well groomed salesman with a "honest" streak about him. He's not entirely unconnected in the science community and he presents his brand of reality quite convincingly. That's why his ideas get the coverage and following they do.

[bojan]

Originally Posted by renormalised

Words are the most powerful tools (and weapons) we have..

Yes, but words are just that .
We know better than to use them at a such low level, despite the momentary impact they may have (and let me assure you, this impact, if not supported with a bit more meaning than just aim for impact is VERY short term).
Well augmented discussion, contrary to the previous, will stay longer (and it still needs refreshing from time to time)

[bojan]

Originally Posted by renormalised

... quite convincingly. That's why his ideas get the coverage and following they do.

Exactly my point

[Zaps]

Carl Sagan was often criticized by many of his fellow scientists for the open and conciliatory stance he generally adopted when dealing with UFO believers and other similar types.

[marki]

That site is hilarious. Perhaps he should apply an electrical field to his nuts......it doesnt exist haha

Mark

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by bojan

Yes, but words are just that .
We know better than to use them at a such low level, despite the momentary impact they may have (and let me assure you, this impact, if not supported with a bit more meaning than just aim for impact is VERY short term).
Well augmented discussion, contrary to the previous, will stay longer (and it still needs refreshing from time to time)

Yes, they are just that. It's always the simplest of things which actually have the most impact or importance...and also the things which actually turn out to be the most powerful and potentially dangerous. Especially if they're used and abused.

We may know better than to use them in such a way (although, I would question that), but that doesn't mean that we wouldn't or be inclined to do so. It boils down to the ethical/moral and spiritual maturity of the person. The impact of words in never short term. Even if it's mostly forgotten after the fact, as word's influence can linger for a very long time. Sometimes for a lifetime. Words generate ideas, thoughts, symbols, which can impact the very essence of a person's being. Even the most innocuous and simple words can have a great impact, whether it's realised immediately or not, consciously remembered or kept hidden in the recesses of the subconscious.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by marki

That site is hilarious. Perhaps he should apply an electrical field to his nuts......it doesnt exist haha

Mark

What he doesn't realise is that if his arguments held sway, he wouldn't be able to type the garbage he has into a computer for public display

Actually, he wouldn't even exist

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by Zaps

Carl Sagan was often criticized by many of his fellow scientists for the open and conciliatory stance he generally adopted when dealing with UFO believers and other similar types.

Precisely, because he knew the power of words and he also respected their opinions and their right to have them. Even if he didn't agree with anything they believed in. But, so long as those opinions didn't cause harm in any way, shape or form.

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by renormalised

Yes, they are just that. It's always the simplest of things which actually have the most impact or importance...and also the things which actually turn out to be the most powerful and potentially dangerous. Especially if they're used and abused.

We may know better than to use them in such a way (although, I would question that), but that doesn't mean that we wouldn't or be inclined to do so. It boils down to the ethical/moral and spiritual maturity of the person. The impact of words in never short term. Even if it's mostly forgotten after the fact, as word's influence can linger for a very long time. Sometimes for a lifetime. Words generate ideas, thoughts, symbols, which can impact the very essence of a person's being. Even the most innocuous and simple words can have a great impact, whether it's realised immediately or not, consciously remembered or kept hidden in the recesses of the subconscious.

Are you arguing against the tactics which bojan already sees as unfit here Carl ?

Cheers

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Are you arguing against the tactics which bojan already sees as unfit here Carl ?

Cheers

What I am saying is that words, even the most innocuous, can have a great impact. Whether they're for or against an opinion/argument/debate. That's why you have to choose not only the words carefully, but the position from which you are coming.

We use words at all levels (as Bojan would put it), but unfortunately it seems to be the baser levels that many operate at most, if not all, of the time.

Sometimes it is quite obvious that no matter what you try to do to convince people to the contrary, they will believe these nutcases to the letter. That's what you get with the EU, this guy and others. The problem being that we know that if allowed to fester for too long, you will get these opinions holding sway over everything else at the expense of everything else. It's the same "engine" which drives religion and politics. Unfortunately, we have all seen what history has shown us when people or groups of people who have some notion of their opinions as being the "only opinions" get to hold sway. This is what Gaede is trying to achieve. Anyone who advocates the death of someone just because they hold contrary views (about anything) is as evil as the Inquisition.

I fully support having good and well structured arguments to counter guys like this. But you have to be aware that it might all be an exercise in futility if you let them get too much of a foothold and that to weed them out is going to take a monumental effort, which mightn't succeed. Sometimes attacking these guys doesn't work, at other times it does. It's entirely dependent on the individual situation.

Any sane person would laugh this nutcase off, but even lunatics can get away with appearing sane, if they have good enough arguments or a clever sales pitch and a willing audience.

[bojan]

Yes...
But what to do to neutralise them now when it is already too late for many?
The proper education (when it is on time - primary and secondary schools) should be the normal way to ensure the critical mass of scientific way of thinking.. but this implies involvement of government (or, better, some independent body.. we can't assume the government of the day will always have the same philosophy about those things).
And no private initiative whatsoever (charity-like or whatever) will ever succeed in this task - this is the open door to corruption and all sorts of vested interests.

BTW, have you ever wandered, why former USSR produced such a large number of mathematicians, artists.... all those non-profitable professions.. number disproportional to western percentages?

[OICURMT]

Originally Posted by renormalised

What I am saying is that words, even the most innocuous, can have a great impact. Whether they're for or against an opinion/argument/debate. That's why you have to choose not only the words carefully, but the position from which you are coming.

QFT!

One of the most logical and best phrased comments on this site...



Carefully chosen words carry a lot of weight.

" The pen is mightier than the sword "
Edward Bulwer Lytton


OIC!

[OICURMT]

Originally Posted by bojan

Yes...
But what to do to neutralise them now when it is already too late for many?
The proper education (when it is on time - primary and secondary schools) should be the normal way to ensure the critical mass of scientific way of thinking.. but this implies involvement of government (or, better, some independent body.. we can't assume the government of the day will always have the same philosophy about those things).
And no private initiative whatsoever (charity-like or whatever) will ever succeed in this task - this is the open door to corruption and all sorts of vested interests.

Agreed... and herein lies the rub. Educators are being marginalized.

<slight off-topic rant>
One of my biggest concerns is the simple fact that we, as a society, feel it is ok to underpay the people who educate our children, who will eventually be future leaders (scientist, educators, politicians, everyday working man etc...) of this world.

I will never understand why we spend thousands on our kids for Computers, Consoles, "designer this" ... "designer that" and then complain when the people who educate our children want more pay because they have to get second jobs in order to make ends meet... the extra minimal cost to society will reap back a dividend several fold over being passive and doing nothing.
</slight off-topic rant>

Guiding children to think for themselves in a logical fashion and question the world around them allows us to neutralize the problem before it starts...

Get them early and the world opens up... get them late and you have the blind being lead by the blind.


OIC!

<BTW: I am not an educator, nor is anyone in my family. I dated one once... but let's not get into that >

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by OICURMT

Agreed... and herein lies the rub. Educators are being marginalized.

<slight off-topic rant>
One of my biggest concerns is the simple fact that we, as a society, feel it is ok to underpay the people who educate our children, who will eventually be future leaders (scientist, educators, politicians, everyday working man etc...) of this world.

I will never understand why we spend thousands on our kids for Computers, Consoles, "designer this" ... "designer that" and then complain when the people who educate our children want more pay because they have to get second jobs in order to make ends meet... the extra minimal cost to society will reap back a dividend several fold over being passive and doing nothing.
</slight off-topic rant>

Guiding children to think for themselves in a logical fashion and question the world around them allows us to neutralize the problem before it starts...

Get them early and the world opens up... get them late and you have the blind being lead by the blind.


OIC!

<BTW: I am not an educator, nor is anyone in my family. I dated one once... but let's not get into that >

Interesting that this discussion has zoomed in on the Education system.

Whatever happened to parental responsibilities in all this ?

Teachers/Education systems are the dumping ground for many of society's undesirable tasks.

Cheers
PS: And "no" … I am not a professional teacher !

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by bojan

Yes...
But what to do to neutralise them now when it is already too late for many?
The proper education (when it is on time - primary and secondary schools) should be the normal way to ensure the critical mass of scientific way of thinking.. but this implies involvement of government (or, better, some independent body.. we can't assume the government of the day will always have the same philosophy about those things).
And no private initiative whatsoever (charity-like or whatever) will ever succeed in this task - this is the open door to corruption and all sorts of vested interests.

BTW, have you ever wandered, why former USSR produced such a large number of mathematicians, artists.... number disproportional to western percentages?

I'm all for the proper regime of education. One thing I feel is that kids should be looked at from an early age to see what they're competent in and their education tailored to help them to achieve the highest abilities in those competencies. They should still get a well rounded education, but not at the total expense of any abilities that they might have. If a kid's good at science, then they should be pursuing this course. If they're good with mechanical subjects, then they should pursue this. If any kid has a particular ability in any field of study, then they should be encouraged to pursue that field. In order to properly develop their potentials, they have to be identified and encouraged whilst they're still young. It's no use waiting until they leave high school. By that time, they've become set in their ways and/or developed bad educational habits, or have lost interest etc. The crucial learning period and when good habits of a lifetime are developed is when they're still young and growing. High school should be a consolidation of their previous skill building and a further extension of their study into their chosen areas. University should then become the consolidation of all that previous work and the beginnings of their dedicated research and study into their chosen fields.

Or, if they're mechanical/service/manual labour inclined, into those areas.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Interesting that this discussion has zoomed in on the Education system.

Whatever happened to parental responsibilities in all this ?

Teachers/Education systems are the dumping ground for many of society's undesirable tasks.

Cheers
PS: And "no" … I am not a professional teacher !

I agree, but it's also a case of many parents not being equipped enough themselves to be able to handle the responsibility (not always their fault), and it's also the case of the teachers having to face too much, or too little. The problem is the governments and the fact they listen to all the mamby pamby ideas that come out and then legislate into law things which, for the most part, they haven't a clue about. That's where the trouble begins.

The laws eventually take both the parents and the teachers out of the loop, so that neither can exercise their proper responsibilities towards the children.

[OICURMT]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Interesting that this discussion has zoomed in on the Education system.

Whatever happened to parental responsibilities in all this ?

Another very valid point. However, since I am not a educator, I must rely on those with the background to educate. Parents are clearly in a supportive role with respect to acquisition of knowledge. I see my parental role as a teacher of how to integrate with society, not as being the primary educator. I help my children with their homework and teach them my standard of morals and ethics. I teach them what I have learned through the "school of hard-knocks" and try to make sure they are a passionate person in anything they believe in.

Again, another very good point you have raised with respect to parents. But, if I may have a small rebuttal...

If a parent is one of the blind, who will ensure that the child is not blind?

OIC!

[bojan]

Originally Posted by renormalised

..... kids should be looked at from an early age to see what they're competent in and their education tailored to help them to achieve the highest abilities in those competencies. They should still get a well rounded education, but not at the total expense of any abilities that they might have...

This is very interesting view for me personally .. because when I was at that age (12) in the country I am originally from EXACTLY this system (it was called "professional orientation" ) was in place (as far as I remember.. and it helped my personal development a lot). Also a good basic education (8 years primary school - compulsory - , then 4 years gymnasia (math and nature sciences oriented in my case), then 4 years of uni (electrotechnical-telecommunications studies in my case) .. and it was a free, public system, more or less available to everyone (who was willing to learn and was capable).
In early '70ies they started to introduce reforms in high schools (more voluntary programs among other changes).. and ruined everything.
As a young professional I was watching the useless generations of technicians and engineering, and I was wandering where it will all end..
It ended in economical decay of the country (OK, there were many other causes for this disaster, not only bad education .. but I am sure it contributed to the situation a lot) and then a bloody war, the consequences of it are still visible in economy and general attitude of the public.