IceTrades Feedback

[chrisp9au (Chris)]

I've searched IIS for threads about the need for giving feedback on IceTrades, but can't find anything, so...

I've just had an unsatisfactory outcome on an IceTrades listing.
I've raised my concerns with the moderators.

I would like to have the facility to warn IIS members to be wary when considering buying from an IIS member who, to my mind, is not doing the right thing.

I would like to see a "Feedback" section included in Icetrades.
Strict rules, all feedback to be screened by moderators prior to being posted, to ensure that negative feedback is courteous, accurate, and appropriate.

I'm not sure how many purchase I've made through IceTrades, quite a few, and all, until today, have been completed amicably with good will on all sides.

I would like to be able to give credit and good feedback where it is due.
I would like to be able to give poor feedback, and a warning to IIS members, when somebody goes outside the spirit of Ice In Space.

I feel sure there are members out there who might be happier to avail themselves of the IceTrades offerings, if they had some guidance on who is reliable to buy from, and who should be treated with caution.

I understand that the moderators have more than enough to do, and hope that this would not represent a huge increase in 'house keeping', but I reckon it's a question worth talking about.

I would be interested in everyone's views.

Cheers
Chris

[mercedes_sl1970]

Hi Chris

Sorry to hear about your situation.

What you propose sounds like it could be very helpful.

There are rating tools on Cloudynights and Astromart which I know that I have found useful. I'm not sure how difficult they would be to add to the IIS website?

Andrew

[torana68 (Roger)]

been discussed before
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...ative+feedback
possable on other threads as well ....

[chrisp9au (Chris)]

As a follow up...

Following advice from the seller, it appears that an IIS member failed to indicate on the listing that a PM had been sent offering to buy, prior to my PM offering to buy.
The seller failed to respond to my PM indicating that I was not the first to make an offer, thus leaving me in the dark.

A communication failure that has left me feeling, to my mind, justifiably aggrieved!

Maybe I'm just an old grump, but the topic is still valid!
This thread may lead to positive outcomes...

Cheers
Chris

[ballaratdragons (Ken)]

Originally Posted by torana68

been discussed before
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...ative+feedback
possable on other threads as well ....

Yes, discussed a year ago, but nothing was ever done.

As an example of a good way to handle it is the same as some other forums have.

One forum I am in uses the 'Colour' method.

Blue for a good seller or buyer, Red for a bad seller or buyer.

Here is the direct copy/paste from that forum so you can understand how some other forums handle it:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

If you have bought something from a member here, please give us your feedback.

Please Include:

* Timeframe for delivery -
* Communication -
* Were goods received ( at all ) -
* Were goods in the quoted fashion -
* Would you recommend your seller to others -

and a brief comment.

etc etc.

Not just good feedback either guys, I want BAD FEEDBACK too, so we can protect our members from assholes trying to rip us off, as this seems to be happening a lot lately, even by members with big post counts, lets put an end to it, and keep this section running.

cheers

The Admin Team

How it will work: If you had a positive purchase please use BLUE for the users name.
If you wouldnt deal with them again please use RED.

Copy of rule 6.16 from the Main Forum Rules:
6.16 - For Sale Feedback thread.
The 'For Sale Feedback COLOURS!!' thread is set up to capture buy&sell transaction feedback.
• Only one post per member per transaction. This is not a debate forum.
• If you feel you have received unwarranted feedback, use the Report Post button and politely explain the problem.
• Positive feedback: Display the member’s user name in BLUE.
• Negative feedback: Display the member’s user name in RED.
Please Include:
• Were goods received and as described by the seller.
• Timeframe for delivery
• Communication
• Would you recommend this member to others.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Examples:

ERUPTOR
Great guy, and very helpful!
* Time frame for delivery: A week
* Communication: Very good
* Where goods received ( at all ): Yep
* Where goods in the quoted fashion: Yep
* Would you recommend your seller to others: Definitely

COMMENTS: Graham was a pleasure to deal with. Fast and friendly.



MR SPEEDIE
So Far, No Good
* Time frame for delivery: Haven't Received
* Communication: Below Average
* Where goods received ( at all ): No
* Where goods in the quoted fashion: N/A
* Would you recommend your seller to others: Not At The Moment

COMMENTS: I'll give him another week then I'm calling the cops. I sent money order for $1800 and recieved nothing yet!



BJ-BOSS
* Communication: Terrible (5%)
* Where goods received ( at all ): No
* Where goods in the quoted fashion: N.A.
* Would you recommend your seller to others: Not really!

After being quick and putting my name to the 'for sale' item in the thread then being told in the thread the item was mine. Then PM'ing several times to arrange payment/delivery, but waiting for over six weeks just to finally get a reply be told the item is no longer for sale.

Folks, if you aren't sure that you are actually going to sell something, don't list it for sale. It frustrates everyone and makes you look like a fool.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Those are all actual posts. The last one was unfortunately mine

The Thread is titled 'For Sale Feedback Colours' but would sound better being called 'For Sale - showing your True Colours'

The section is heavily moderated to stop abuse.

I have seen the exact same section in several Forums (Cars, Footie, and a Needlework Forum Cheryl is in) and in each forum it is well used.


Or do we see someone raise the same point in yet another year?

[Octane (Humayun)]

While I understand where you guys are coming from, bear in mind, for a moment the potential pitfalls.

Someone who may be dodgy with their for sale items, but, has an excellent reputation for helping newbies (or, experienced people, alike) out in other areas of the forum, may have their reputation tarnished because they failed to deliver an item, or not pay for something they've bought, etc.

Unfortunately, their buy/sell reputation wouldn't be limited to just the classifieds. Permafried.

Just putting it out there.

H

[Alchemy (Clive)]

To cut it short it will not happen. Terms and conditions of use of trades section would exempt any responsibility, and it's caveat emptor.

Buy from those you know, have lots of posts and have proven themselves..... If not then find a referrer who you can trust to vouch for them. If all these fail then a personal visit to check the goods.

You can give good feedback, it's simple enough to put up a thread saying you are delighted with your new purchase.

I am aware of poor outcomes but by doing what I have suggested above will help.

[iceman (Mike)]

This is the other thread where similar things were discussed:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...ad.php?t=59545

My posts in that thread are still relevant so I'll link to them directly:
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...27&postcount=7
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...9&postcount=23

There's nothing in the rules that says a potential buyer has to post "PM Sent". Many sellers are contacted directly via PM without the buyer posting "PM Sent".

To my mind, the posting of "PM Sent" is not for a 'pecking order' - most people would do it so the seller know to check his or her PM! Sure, some people do it to let other potential buyers know that they got in first, but it certainly doesn't mean you WERE first to contact the seller.

The seller may have also had the item for sale on ebay or another site, and sold it through other means first.

A different potential buyer contacted me last week because they hadn't heard from a seller after a day or two and they had deposited $1500 or something. I simply can't, and won't, get involved in ANY IceTrade transactions. There's thousands of goods bought and sold every year through IceTrade. I can't possible get involved in all of them and I don't want to be involved in any of them.

If I was concerned, I would ask for the sellers phone number before depositing $1500 into a bank account.

Clive's post above is spot on. Do your homework, speak to the person, get their phone number, go and see the item, speak to people who know the person, etc.

It's always going to be buyer beware.

In this instance (this thread) it's not even about someone getting ripped off - it's simply about Chris thinking he missed out on a sale because he felt he was first in line, when in reality, he wasn't.

It's not the first time that has happened and it won't be the last. So a reminder, posting of "PM Sent" does indicate a pecking order. However the seller of course should be honest and truthful and sell to the first legitimately interested buyer.

Cheers

[chrisp9au (Chris)]

Thank you Mike.

I would like to apologise to everyone. My reasons for starting this thread were just plain wrong, based on my poor understanding of things.
My reactions and statements were out of proportion, and, I would like to suggest, out of character for the way I normally behave.

I should keep my mouth shut, and my ears open more often.
I would learn a lot more, avoid upsetting people, and save myself a lot of embarrassment!

I have also PM'd the members concerned and offered my apologies.

Cheers
A very embarrassed Chris!

[wasyoungonce (Brendan)]

No need to apologise at all. This is something that I have also discussed (with other members by PM/email)...it works both ways for sellers and buyers.

Possibly some issues to deal with:

Sellers should be allowed to respond to negative feedback from buyers...like ebay....aka tell everyone what they have done to resolve the situation or what they think the problem is.

Do not allow members to sell item for 1st 3 months or so of membership...many forums have this.

How to deal with members who re-sign under a different name?

All this could put a bigger load on to the forum mods and owner who have already, and rightly so stated, "caveat emptor".

The only way buyers can get warning about sellers is by PM which is a behind the back thing. It's my guess this has been going on between experienced users but not so much for newbies...who can be burnt the most.

Lastly ...someone not replying to PMs...meh!..it happens all the time.

[Brundah1 (David)]

Saturday I read the recent comments posted, as a fairly new member I refrained from comment as recent experiences indicate the variations on trading are quite complex.

However was encouraged today by others constructive comments. So here goes with a collection of points, some in support of other members suggestions.

The general terms of trade are fine for honest helpful people ie; the vast majority of members here.

But newbies face a daunting challenge of not knowing who to rely upon and perhaps like me not knowing anyone in the astronomy world.

I have adopted the basic policy, to ask for a home address or personal phone number, plus bank account details. Most members don't hesitate, particularly after a brief phone call and those transactions have all been excellent, often with an email or phone call to check all is OK.
When a trade has been AOK a favorable reply can be posted to the advert.

I tend to agree with the five stars system, but without comments. Maybe a bit complex to program for the moderators. But the feedback ratings could be accumulated on each member's statistics page eg;

IceTrade Rating
1*= 0, 2*= 2, 3*=3, 4*= 10, 5*=25

Obviously you should only be able to post feedback, if you have at least responded when the item was listed "For Sale". Maybe more programming for Mike, but necessary to prevent many false inputs.

Polite pos / neg explanatory comments could be replied to the advert during time unlocked, which unlocked time could be extended from 2 weeks to 4 weeks.

Obviously Flaming and unacceptable language as per website policy should be removed by moderators, but replied feedback and star ratings should not be altered by anyone.

One insidious issue is that members who have developed a bad rating, could resign from the group and try to rejoin under a different ID. Apart from a personal IP address this is very hard to police. But members get banned for banned for breaching website policy, so this could be the same.

No system will be perfect or free from abuse, but a positive & negative 5 star system would be a great improvement. Particularly for the newer members.

These comments do not cast a slur against anyone, but these points do get shared privately quite a bit. Like others I'm just game enough to make some suggested improvements to a good system.

BTW "For Sale" Free clouds, quite solid & reliable, show up every night.
Pick-up only

David



David

[chrisp9au (Chris)]

The message is that nothing will change.

I've learned my lesson.

1. Caveat Emptor
2. Do the PM before you indicate you've done the PM !
3. Expect nothing, but be grateful if you do get something!
4. If something goes wrong , stay cool! (my 1st failing yesterday!)
5. If you communicate with anyone, remember, brain in gear before mouth in motion! (my 2nd failing yesterday)
6. Accept the facts, you win some, you lose some!

lesson concluded!

Chris

[sheeny (Al)]

Having just sold my PST and my C8 recently (I hope you aren't referring to the PST Chris! I tried to communicate with all involved as best I could) I had several PM replies to both with nothing posted in the Icetrades thread.

I worked on the principle that first PM in deserves first option.

It all comes down to courtesy to others I feel. Communicate, and don't try to do anything dodgy.

I'm sorry you were let down by the communication Chris (whoever it was with).

Al.

[chrisp9au (Chris)]

No Al, definitely not you!

Cheers
Chris

[mozzie (Peter)]

im in the process of selling my scope lx90 i had 1 pm posted that went no where tyre kicker,and ive had that much pm sent to me and follow on pm's with none posted .the person that wants to deposit funds first or come and give me the money will get it.
you cant be waiting for oh well maybe first in first served!!!!!!!!!!

[En1gma (Robert)]

Could I make one suggestion.

Put a clause in the ice trade FAQ for no PM trading. On another forum I trade over on, this is a clause used ensure all bids/offers etc are in absolute order and kept within the for sale thread. It would then be up to the seller to list their own personal Sale conditions or to reject any offers below their reserve made on the item for sale.

Regards,
Rob

[gbeal]

I'm an avid user of the Trades, love them, and have tried to put "something" back occasionally. I NEVER "PM Sent", the sale is between me and the seller/buyer, so may have even contributed on this matter, sorry. Cripes, people would think I am a wheeler and dealer.
I like the feedback idea, but given the size of this community, feel Clive is correct. If in doubt discretely check, people know people.
Gary

[Octane (Humayun)]

For what it's worth, Gary is worth his weight in gold when it comes to buying/selling.

My eBay-like appraisal of him:

A+++, excellent communciation, quick to post, would deal with again gladly!

H

[Jen]

Gday Chris

With the lucky bargins you have managed to score in here one bad egg wont hurt ya will it You will be back in there shopping tomorrow i bet hehehe

[chrisp9au (Chris)]

Originally Posted by Jen

Gday Chris

With the lucky bargins you have managed to score in here one bad egg wont hurt ya will it You will be back in there shopping tomorrow i bet hehehe

That's for sure Jen!
Got a bit upset at one I missed, but I'm over it now, and it was my fault!

Still looking for bargains!

Cheers
Chris