What is gravity?

[AlexN]

Originally Posted by sjastro

Unfortunately Quantum Gravity is a theoretical mess as the mathematics produces infinite solutions for basic interactions between objects.

Could that not be easily explained by the uncertainty principle?

You can not predict exactly what will happen when two bodies interact, rather, you can extrapolate a list of likely outcomes with varying probability..

Take two interacting galaxies for example, you could not hope to model exactly how they will interact, however by determining their current trajectory and velocity in space you should be able to extrapolate quite a few likely outcomes. You could not know for certain how it will play out because you do not know the total amount of stars per galaxy or their distribution, black holes and neutron stars who's mass will change the outcome of the interaction, other matter be it dark matter/dark energy/virtual particles etc etc.. There is no certainty in the outcome, however there is many different outcomes of varying probability..

[AlexN]

Originally Posted by marki

Sure, with a bottle of hydrogen, a big piece of ali tube turned into a spiral, a few dozen super magnets and a kick ass power supply. put it all in the freezer and the universe is your play thing .

Oh did I mention the oxy? You will need that to ionise the gas on the way in, good luck .

Mark

I'll just stick to my current project... Operation Railgun. MMMM electromagnetism...

[Baron von Richthofen (Vaclav)]

Gravity is not a force, its a affect caused by the distortion of the universal plain, the larger the mass the larger the distortion the grater the effect

[avandonk]

Originally Posted by AlexN

I'll just stick to my current project... Operation Railgun. MMMM electromagnetism...

My boss used to send me to Chicago to collect xray data from protein crystals. This Synchroton is about one kilometer in diameter. It takes 40 min just to walk around the instrument hall.

I have also usd the Synchrotron at Grenoble in France and at Tsukuba in Japan.

If you want to see klystrons bigger than a house!


Bert

[Baron von Richthofen (Vaclav)]

Originally Posted by avandonk

My boss used to send me to Chicago to collect xray data from protein crystals. This Synchroton is about one kilometer in diameter. It takes 40 min just to walk around the instrument hall.

I have also usd the Synchrotron at Grenoble in France and at Tsukuba in Japan.

If you want to see klystrons bigger than a house!


Bert

What has all these machines contributed to the common man?

[AlexN]

I want one that I can keep in an area about the size of a double garage Bert..

[avandonk]

Originally Posted by Vars191

What has all these machines contributed to the common man?

In your case we invented Relenza. Tamiflu is a ripoff from our work. We have far more in the pipeline.

There is far more that these very expensive machines produce. We are just starting.

If you really want to ask awkward questions. Ask what all the non productive weapons have produced!

Bert

[xelasnave]

The current position as to gravity is lamentable.

Humans know nothing about gravity as if they did GR would be out the door as our best shot.

We can work out what will happen as a result of various gravity "set ups" using GR (or Newton) such that we can say what things will do... fall fly stuff... what but Newton and Dr A avoided was any consideration upon how gravity actually works..
AND before you all cry out DR A knew it all I say this ...no one will take up or answer the following question...

What is general relativity..is it any more than a sum???, and if so where is the briliance if there is no comment upon the way it works..
I saw someplace.. that general relativity is like a pythagarian theorum with a negitive line for time...whatever how else can you think about the universe.... but upon my understanding it does no more than "measure" ..and if it explains gravity then I dare anyone to explain gravity within that theory such to offer commentary upon what is going on .....

What is the premise of GR? why can that not be put in a statement simply explaining why and how gravity works...easy...easy that is if GR does half of what it claims... but explain gravity it does not! We get to think spacer is a mystery with time and bending but it takes away from the fact no one has expalined how gravity works... to much talk such we miss what we ask I feel... assume the sums are right etc..assume I accept the premise without math prove...just tell me...what is the premise of GR..in a sentence or two.

so how does gravirty work...no one knows is the state of science today...but one thing is certain..general relativity is not what makes it work... GR holds no joy and says zip really... so who will venture a consise statement as to what general relativity says.... what?..if space and time is being bent please explain the physical mechanism..it does not happen because a formula says it must.. the formula only gives an insist as to expected results etc.

How does attraction work???... until someone says how it works how can we entertain dark matter...the only reason we need dark maTTER IS BECAUSE WE RELY ON A MYTHICAL FORCE..ATTRACTION..TO EXPLAIN THINGS.. sorry hit caps.. not shouting..
You can add dark matter until the cows come home it wont fix the problems but only makes it worse as the more you add the more you have to add ... think how will dark matter and attraction solve the fast outter star thing..it wont because it can not..


Gravity pushes irrespective of how your sums try to command it and accepting that it does push makes all things reasonable, managable..we dont need matter we that can not see or universes in parrallel or the crap that flows in the absence of a considered assessment of the matter we deal with.

alex

[starlooker (Duc)]

Originally Posted by Kevnool

Put a beer up to your mouth and pour it in and let gravity take over.

[avandonk]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

The current position as to gravity is lamentable.

Humans know nothing about gravity as if they did GR would be out the door as our best shot.

We can work out what will happen as a result of various gravity "set ups" using GR (or Newton) such that we can say what things will do... fall fly stuff... what but Newton and Dr A avoided was any consideration upon how gravity actually works..
AND before you all cry out DR A knew it all I say this ...no one will take up or answer the following question...

What is general relativity..is it any more than a sum???, and if so where is the briliance if there is no comment upon the way it works..
I saw someplace.. that general relativity is like a pythagarian theorum with a negitive line for time...whatever how else can you think about the universe.... but upon my understanding it does no more than "measure" ..and if it explains gravity then I dare anyone to explain gravity within that theory such to offer commentary upon what is going on .....

What is the premise of GR? why can that not be put in a statement simply explaining why and how gravity works...easy...easy that is if GR does half of what it claims... but explain gravity it does not! We get to think spacer is a mystery with time and bending but it takes away from the fact no one has expalined how gravity works... to much talk such we miss what we ask I feel... assume the sums are right etc..assume I accept the premise without math prove...just tell me...what is the premise of GR..in a sentence or two.

so how does gravirty work...no one knows is the state of science today...but one thing is certain..general relativity is not what makes it work... GR holds no joy and says zip really... so who will venture a consise statement as to what general relativity says.... what?..if space and time is being bent please explain the physical mechanism..it does not happen because a formula says it must.. the formula only gives an insist as to expected results etc.

How does attraction work???... until someone says how it works how can we entertain dark matter...the only reason we need dark maTTER IS BECAUSE WE RELY ON A MYTHICAL FORCE..ATTRACTION..TO EXPLAIN THINGS.. sorry hit caps.. not shouting..
You can add dark matter until the cows come home it wont fix the problems but only makes it worse as the more you add the more you have to add ... think how will dark matter and attraction solve the fast outter star thing..it wont because it can not..


Gravity pushes irrespective of how your sums try to command it and accepting that it does push makes all things reasonable, managable..we dont need matter we that can not see or universes in parrallel or the crap that flows in the absence of a considered assessment of the matter we deal with.

alex

If we know so little about gravity Alex, how did those ignorant twits at NASA fly their probe through the Cassini division?

Bert

[Baron von Richthofen (Vaclav)]

Originally Posted by avandonk

In your case we invented Relenza. Tamiflu is a ripoff from our work. We have far more in the pipeline.

There is far more that these very expensive machines produce. We are just starting.

If you really want to ask awkward questions. Ask what all the non productive weapons have produced!

Bert

Military madness has contributed to the common man such as high efficient jet engines for air travel just to name one, the space race
has given satellites of all kinds, weather, communications, but what you are doing is science for science sake I Don't mined that to much until it starts costing trillions of dollars which could be spent better ells ware

[avandonk]

Originally Posted by Vars191

Military madness has contributed to the common man such as high efficient jet engines for air travel just to name one, the space race
has given satellites of all kinds, weather, communications, but what you are doing is science for science sake I Don't mined that to much until it starts costing trillions of dollars which could be spent better ells ware

If your thought processes are as good as your spelling you are indeed fortunate.

Bert

[Baron von Richthofen (Vaclav)]

Originally Posted by avandonk

If your thought processes are as good as your spelling you are indeed fortunate.

Bert

Sorry if my selling is no up to your standard but I come from a non English speaking country so it a bit harder but if that all you have to say Ha-ha

[sjastro]

Originally Posted by AlexN

Could that not be easily explained by the uncertainty principle?

You can not predict exactly what will happen when two bodies interact, rather, you can extrapolate a list of likely outcomes with varying probability..

Take two interacting galaxies for example, you could not hope to model exactly how they will interact, however by determining their current trajectory and velocity in space you should be able to extrapolate quite a few likely outcomes. You could not know for certain how it will play out because you do not know the total amount of stars per galaxy or their distribution, black holes and neutron stars who's mass will change the outcome of the interaction, other matter be it dark matter/dark energy/virtual particles etc etc.. There is no certainty in the outcome, however there is many different outcomes of varying probability..

Hello Alex,

To answer your question requires a brief overview of Quantum Field Theory (QFT) which is the next step up from Quantum Mechanics (QM).
QFT is the interaction of particles in either the electromagnetic, weak or strong fields. Photons are the interaction or carrier particle in the electromagnetic field, W and Z bosons in the weak field and gluons in the strong field.

As you are aware the energy levels of the hydrogen atom are accurately described by QM. If however you stick a hydrogen atom into an external electrical field the energy levels change but remain finite.

Unfortunately QFT predicted the energy levels could become infinite.
To overcome this discrepancy scientists came up with a mathematical sleight of hand known as renormalization.

Renormalization involves subtracting out the mathematical terms which caused the energy levels to become infinite. While this appears to be mathematical trickery and has been criticized by renowned scientists such as Richard Feynman, it turns out that theory agrees quite well with experiment.

Quantum gravity is a variant of QFT. The interaction or carrier particle is the graviton. When a particle interacts in the gravitational field once again you end up with infinite energies according to theory.

Quantum gravity however is a non-renormalizable theory. There is simply no way to remove the infinite terms in the mathematics.

It's for this reason that other theories have evolved to remove the infinities such as string theory or loop gravity theories.

Regards

Steven

[sjastro]

Originally Posted by avandonk

If we know so little about gravity Alex, how did those ignorant twits at NASA fly their probe through the Cassini division?

Bert

Touche!

[astroron (Ron)]

quote from Vars

Sorry if my selling is no up to your standard but I come from a non English speaking country so it a bit harder but if that all you have to say Ha-ha

Vars, I don't think it is your spelling as such but as I see it it is you not checking your post before pressing send

[shane.mcneil]

As I understand physics, there are two aspects. Experimental physics and theoretical physics. Experimental physicists conduct experiments and measure results. Theoretical physicists try and develop mathematical models that match those results and which may in fact predict more things that the experimental physicists can then go try and find.

So Newton developed a mathematical model that predicted very well what was then known from observation about gravity. What he did not do is work out what gravity is, just how to predict its effect.

As data continued to accumulate it was realised that Newton did not match with every observation. So Relativity was developed to mathematical gel with what was now known. But again, as time has gone by Relativity too has been shown to fall short in some areas. So Quantum Gravity models have been developed to try and model what is going on.

So all we do is develop mathematical models that match with what we see in the real world. Maybe they will tell us what gravity is, maybe not. What amazes me is that we can mathematically model the real world and that we expect that the real world can be mathematically modeled some how.

Hooray for maths. Maybe someone forgot to carry the one...

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by avandonk

If we know so little about gravity Alex, how did those ignorant twits at NASA fly their probe through the Cassini division?

Bert

Hi Bert nice to "see" you.

You know Bert I often ask myself the same question but I figure it this way.... I can find my way around the city with a street directory and I dont need to know who lives in what house or anything about the city at all...

but as uninformed as I am I simply follow the street directory...

now many folk could marvel at how smart I am to navigate the city??? but in truth I know little about it, the people in it or the function of the city... so as I see it fools can do big things and fools then claim because they have done their small deed they know it all...how presumptious if I were to say I know all about the city simply because I have managed to navigate my way thru it...so on that basis just because NASA did this or that does not impress me..give me their budget and I will impress you of that I am certain...but lets not call them ignorant..for they do the best with what they have at their disposal..and as we have already observed as far as gravity goes that is indeed very little..Saturn would not even require GR I expect just simple sums that need not action at a distance etc..and so we must say they did well because they did in fact do it...but according to their science they made certain predictions as to what their space craft would do when they left the solar system having passed thru the heliosphere...and I point to this because on this point they did not "do it"... they were wrong in their prediction because they held upon a notion that gravity sucked when as we all know it in fact pushes..pushing creates a drag environment which will slow the craft which is what they did...If one could not entertain an aether one would never think they would slow..if one saw an aether slowing was inevitable..as it was and is...That was my prediction (I found my notes on it before the event but there was no date but I know what I said before the event and it is on the net someplace.. and although there are those who say without the math such a prediction is meaningless I say this..they did slow...I said they would slow...does that not mean they (NASA) could be wrong and in fact were wrong..that a mug (me) called it right because he saw the reality not the religiously constructed universe or the unrealistic math construction of our universe..were they wrong? were they? and I was right was I not... now I would not call them twits but I do say they got it absolutely wrong using their current science... I got it absolutely right because my universe depends on cause effect realities not mind games of men in lifts where men will never go in a lift... acceleration let in time and it has no place in the mix...
Bert I respect you more than most people..even though we have not met you seem like a cool fella and I marvel at the list of things you have done in your life.. you have my respect of that there is no question but if you still buy the lift thing you cant move forward on this subject... lets face it GR says little and as such leads us nowhere..the forces will not ..will never never never be united until gravity is defined with some realism and tangibility that relates it to a universe that does not depend on a man experiencing forces in a lift...if we are going to go with that mind game why dont we at least place a lift in space and observe the realities not the expectations of someone musing upon the Universe with the travel range and experience of a very very very ordinary man..a wonderful man but a very ordinary man, a man who I admire but a man nevertheless...so why can not another man..an outsider as they would say not come up with something "new"..well there is one reason why there is nothing new..well the answer is nothing..there is nothing to prevent a new and better idea or approach..history tells us that..and to think what we know now is all there is ...is simply stupid..and so I say throw out GR it sucks not gravity...it is the fear those with an idea seek to avoid..fear of ridicuel etc.. fortunately I dont get that it is a benefit of simple approach and simple assessment of matters..Anyone who has a go will get abuse etc so it is not available to those with no heart...I am confident of my ability to see thru the crap and meaningless info..and say that a man riding in a lift will reveal little about the mysteries of the universe... but dont call them guys at NASA twits they are the best of what is on offer it seems ..they get this dribble at school, and uni and with no original ideas science stays put... NASA was wrong I was right... but they are not twits... and nor am I a twit ..opinions deserve no qualification of their owner... ideas do not need verification upon the man who offered them ..they can stand or fall without relating them to the owner..his morals education etc..things hold water for their own merit not the experience etc of those presenting them... my ideas will stand of that
I am confident... I will back my sphere in space speculation against the lift each day every day... the math can not do anything but offer support...and in time I will get that support.

Still you missed my invitation to give a simple statement upon GR or an explanation as to how attraction works... clearing up either of these points I feel will take us futher than otherwise we have ventured to date

alex

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by Vars191

Military madness has contributed to the common man such as high efficient jet engines for air travel just to name one, the space race
has given satellites of all kinds, weather, communications, but what you are doing is science for science sake I Don't mined that to much until it starts costing trillions of dollars which could be spent better ells ware

Well if you wish to focus upon who costs trillions lets not look to science..try the blood sucking bankers who take everything and give nothing in return except a promise that freedom is not your whilst their loans are being repaid...you miss the horror of a capitalist system that delivers not the promises certainly given via Hollywood movies as to the apple pie and right to be rich stuff..for it delivers folk who are less than comman criminals as they corrupt a workable system and have many crying for a newsystem....science is good it gives us so much..just think it thru..it is the only thing of worth humans can claim... of all the humans that may appear before God only scientists can say theu really did try to save the other suckers... their toil is mostly to see human benefit increase or suffering decrease..nothing wrong if we all did that I expect.
We as humans only do stuff for stuff's sake..so why not science it is less corrupt than other professions and deserves absolute respect...but science unlike banking produces benefit for all the people... scientists are the real heros give them all the cash they ask for..simple.

alex

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by avandonk

If your thought processes are as good as your spelling you are indeed fortunate.

Bert

Bravo Bert!

But it's obvious. Gravity works by suction! (I know this to be true as the aerofoils I use when at work produce anti-suction)

Plus, any fool can see the state of the Earth sucks at present. (yes, cleaned that old gag up a bit )