South Pacific Star Party 2009 (22 - 24 May)

[h0ughy (David)]

Originally Posted by Rodstar

Ah yes, thank goodness for the campfires! This year, with the encouragement of an experienced "glass melter" (John Gerkin) we melted at least a dozen beer bottles and a couple of wine bottles for good measure.

yep I did manage to get the artificial sun to make the steel glow on the sides and top of that fireplace

[Enchilada]

Originally Posted by h0ughy

yep I did manage to get the artificial sun to make the steel glow on the sides and top of that fireplace

Next you should try for a Pyrex meltdown !!

[Enchilada]

Originally Posted by Paul Hatchman

On occasion, members have taken simultaneous sky quality meter readings at both Wiruna and Coonabarabran and obtained almost identical results.
Paul Hatchman

Who among the members obtained these results? I'd also be very, very interested to read them and the methods used - not only for Wiruna, but elsewhere in Australia.

Suggest reading the useful thread IIS ; Where is the Best Astro Site in OZ?

[Paul Hatchman]

Originally Posted by Enchilada

Paul,
This is fairly disingenuous. Wiruna place is well documented as an observing site. I.e. Read Bart Bok's historical paper written in 1960. http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1960JRASC..54..257B

I've read the paper through several times now and I'm not sure what point you are really trying to make?

As to being disingenuous, I think my comments were clear to all that are not seeking to ascribe malice, but let me spell it out. We have had "on occasion" nights which have been of simlar quality to Coonabarabran. To be clear, I am not saying that Wiruna is the equivalent to Coonabarabran, only that we have had nights of similar quality as reported by a hand-held sky quality meter.

Originally Posted by Enchilada

Sorry. The real available site testing data simply doesn't scientifically back up your statement.

I am a lowly amateur astronomer, who enjoys visually observing the night sky as a hobby. Nothing I say should be taken as a scientific statement. I have presented the data that I have about clear nights and people can make their own decisions based on that, the papers you have provided etc. But mostly, I think people will make up their mind just by going there and working out if the conditions justify their commitment of time and effort.

Originally Posted by Enchilada

ASNSWI promotion and support for the Wiruna is necessarily needed, but the total spin about getting people there perhaps needs to change it primary focus.

I do not know why you want to invent some conspiracy where there is none. Wiruna is a place where a group of about 50 or so regulars go each month to observe, image and socialise. If people enjoy coming along, they are more than welcome.

We host a star party each year, which again people are free to attend or not. We have had observing at the previous 3 star parties, so the place can't be all bad?

Cheers.

[Paul Hatchman]

Originally Posted by Enchilada

Who among the members obtained these results? I'd also be very, very interested to read them and the methods used - not only for Wiruna, but elsewhere in Australia.

You seem to be expecting some sort of paper written up about this? Sorry to disappoint, but I can only offer 2 meters held up to the sky and a mobile phone conversation.

I believe our observations officer does take periodic SQM readings at Wiruna and if you are genuinely interested, I would suggest you contact him for his observations. However I doubt his methods will be documented to your satisfaction.

Cheers.

[Enchilada]

Originally Posted by Paul Hatchman

I've read the paper through several times now and I'm not sure what point you are really trying to make?

Wiruna is not the best site to select for an astronomical site, as the local terrain is highly influenced by localised weather. Clouds tend to hang around the tops of the mountain - and was overall rejected by the AAO for that reason alone. The site was chosen primarily because of the elevation - without site testing nor actual site testing by the sources mention here before - and that is it Achilles heel.

Known and an established fact.

Originally Posted by Paul Hatchman

As to being disingenuous, I think my comments were clear to all that are not seeking to ascribe malice, but let me spell it out. We have had "on occasion" nights which have been of simlar quality to Coonabarabran. To be clear, I am not saying that Wiruna is the equivalent to Coonabarabran, only that we have had nights of similar quality as reported by a hand-held sky quality meter.

Disingenuous - means "not candid or sincere" I meant no malice at all. Coonabarabran is better than Wiruna - else they would not have built the AAO there - hence the references...

Originally Posted by Paul Hatchman

I am a lowly amateur astronomer, who enjoys visually observing the night sky as a hobby. Nothing I say should be taken as I scientific statement. I have presented the data that I have about clear nights and people can make their own decisions based on that, the papers you have provided etc. But mostly, I think people will make up their mind just by going there and working out if the conditions justify their commitment of time and effort.

Precisely. It is one hell of a way, though - I mean the whole expense and like to just "justify commitment." Again it is the people and NOT observing that make a star party rock. (Others hear say so.) This is really why the SPSP has a great reputation.
If you want to advertise for 'observing', then perhaps the ASNSWI should make a concurrent series of night over a longer period so the 'customers' get what they strive for... and, if necessary, their buck too!

Originally Posted by Paul Hatchman

I do not know why you want to invent some conspiracy where there is none.

Conspiracy?? That's a lawyer trick. Speaking fact, and those who disagree call it a conspiracy! All I've stated, as said above, the fact about the observing site. No more, no less.

Bottom line. The weather at Wiruna this year was shocking. Apparently the organisers, were saying to the 'customers' I.e. "We have never seen wind like it!", when the truth is it actually it is more frequent because of its exposed location.

Originally Posted by Paul Hatchman

Wiruna is a place where a group of about 50 or so regulars go each month to observe, image and socialise. If people enjoy coming along, they are more than welcome. We host a star party each year, which again people are free to attend or not.

Agreed. I've already said this.

Originally Posted by Paul Hatchman

We have had observing at the previous 3 star parties, so the place can't be all bad?

That is not even statistically significant.

Comment : You might think I'm airing 'dirty laundry', but if you take money off customers you must be factual in what is said. Stating something is true when it is not is tantamount to misrepresentation. Wiruna can be an absolutely brilliant site - I've seen it myself - but the reality is statistically it is not.
Really. Marketing the SPSP - you need happy customers - my impression is they were not overly impressed. ngcles says it is "bad luck". Sadly it was "site selection" - hence sell the SPSP as per the comments here - it is a great place to meet people. That is absolutely true - and without the usual spin.

I'm sorry if this is not popular in opinion, but it is the truth as I see it. All I've done is expressed it.

[Enchilada]

Originally Posted by Paul Hatchman

You seem to be expecting some sort of paper written up about this? Sorry to disappoint, but I can only offer 2 meters held up to the sky and a mobile phone conversation.
I believe our observations officer does take periodic SQM readings at Wiruna and if you are genuinely interested, I would suggest you contact him for his observations. However, I doubt his methods will be documented to your satisfaction.
Cheers.

Perhaps these SQM values are important, and I am please something at least is being evaluated. If observers were to do an year-long evaluations and do a quick localised "site test" using documented methods, perhaps then you can evaluate when the probability of clear nights for the site might actually be best time for the SPSP?

Considering the substantial cost of 200+ people getting to the site, and even the cost of running the site, you might think this a good idea - at least something for the Committee to think about.

The SPSP is a good fun annual event in which the Society gains prestige and a small profit to make it worthwhile - being ploughed back into again improving the site. Surely it would be prudent to consider optimisation when it should occur to keep the observing 'customers' happy?

As to saying; "However I doubt his methods will be documented to your satisfaction." This is really unfair saying this. Scott Mellish has both the experience and observational knowledge to know what he is talking about. His view I would listen too. Yet, my point is that if the ASNSWI just keep sufficient useful records instead of here-say, you might gain something very useful for future SPSP's. (Frankly, if it had done so in the beginning, you might have the reputation of Wiruna as touted each year by others being again "disappointed.")

Something positive. Why don't you approach the Weather Bureau as see if you could get the site listed a weather station site? Who knows, you might even get some funding and equipment for zip - and then evaluate the site location. It is located in the general centre of Mt. Nullo, Mudgee, Lithgow and Bathurst Airport. There is enough "weather geeks" to maintain and get involved in general forecasting and recording there - even purchasing say a small automatic weather station!

[Rodstar (Rod)]

I think it would be very helpful if we could return to the original focus of this thread, being people's experiences at SPSP, rather than the current tangent, which appears to be debating the wisdom of the selection of Wiruna as a site for the ASNSW.

The latter debate really seems somewhat otiose to me, unless those arguing for a change of site are willing to put up the funds to finance a relocation. I cannot see any reason for the current committee to have to justify the location of the site. I am just very grateful for all of the volunteer time and effort that the organisers put into the event. I simply do not have time with my work pressures to devote to the organisation of the Society, I am enormously grateful that others do have the time and commitment to do it. Well done to all of the committee and volunteers!

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by Enchilada

Wiruna is not the best site to select for an astronomical site, as the local terrain is highly influenced by localised weather. Clouds tend to hang around the tops of the mountain
Known and an established fact.

Nope. Sorry, clouds don't hang around. They blow mostly from the east and that doesn't happen often. The whole state was under clouds. I don't think it was specifically hanging just over Wiruna.

Originally Posted by Enchilada

If you want to advertise for 'observing', then perhaps the ASNSWI should make a concurrent series of night over a longer period so the 'customers' get what they strive for... and, if necessary, their buck too!

Are you serious? The ASNSW is ripping us off? Damn! I have to find another site then. These guys have been, feeding me and warming me up every month for $10.00. I'm outraged Thanks for pointing the financial aspect of things. Oh, I forgot to mention I get free unlimited power for my rig too. No questions asked.

Originally Posted by Enchilada

Bottom line. The weather at Wiruna this year was shocking. Apparently the organisers, were saying to the 'customers' I.e. "We have never seen wind like it!", when the truth is it actually it is more frequent because of its exposed location.

Nope. Been there nearly every month since 2007. Last week-end was truely the worst I've seen because of the wind on Friday. Out of 25 or so new moon visits I got rain only on 3 of them including the SPSP 2009.

Originally Posted by Enchilada

Really. Marketing the SPSP - you need happy customers - my impression is they were not overly impressed. ngcles says it is "bad luck". Sadly it was "site selection" - hence sell the SPSP as per the comments here - it is a great place to meet people. That is absolutely true - and without the usual spin.

Ok let's blame the ASNSW for the bad weather every time it gets cloudy in NSW. They chose the wrong state.

In a nutshell you've got to lighten up and stay away from the spicy stuff. It's giving you "irritations". The ASNSW go out of their way to make eveybody welcome and everybody's life easier on site. You don't like the weather or the site? Look the other way. Australia is big enough.

[iceman (Mike)]

Originally Posted by Rodstar

I think it would be very helpful if we could return to the original focus of this thread, being people's experiences at SPSP, rather than the current tangent, which appears to be debating the wisdom of the selection of Wiruna as a site for the ASNSW.

The latter debate really seems somewhat otiose to me, unless those arguing for a change of site are willing to put up the funds to finance a relocation. I cannot see any reason for the current committee to have to justify the location of the site.

Indeed.

Andrew, whatever your beef with the ASNSW, please take it up personally with them. Please keep it out of this thread.

Any further discussion or debate in this thread about the ASNSW's selection of Wiruna may be deleted as off-topic.

[h0ughy (David)]

MARC4DARKSKIES - i see from your website that you were the one camped down from us this year, you were sensible enough to have a cover over the fireplace LOL, (you can see my car, mikes and rods vehicles from you vista of your legs leading to the fire)

[Enchilada]

Hey,
You removed one of my posts!!!.
Am I allowed to defend the claims of others by my position here?

[iceman (Mike)]

Originally Posted by Enchilada

Hey,
You removed one of my posts!!!.
Am I allowed to defend the claims of others by my position here?

No, the thread has reached its end. If you want to discuss Wiruna with the ASNSW committee and members, I suggest you head along to one of their meetings and debate it all you like.

Closing this thread, it's reached its end.

Great star party, ASNSW!