It is sad that there are many out there whose faith is so shallow and fragile,
and whose religion is so ossified and rigid, that they cannot accomodate the finding of science over the last 400 years, where we have seen multiple cases of religion vs science.
It has been nearly four centuries since Galileo Galilei lost his legendary showdown with the Catholic Church’s Court of the Inquisition. Threatened with imprisonment, torture and certain death, Galileo backed down — officially, at least — from his outrageous claim that the Earth and the Planets orbited the Sun.
Since Galileo’s time science has marched messily forward and superstition has been forced to retreat; although lately superstition has engaged in some clever stalling tactics. The ancient Catholic Church could enforce its will through military force and terror; in 21st century America, the more loosely organized Protestants simply outmaneuver scientists by dominating school boards and forming political pressure groups.
While nobody argues about the structure of the solar system anymore, the current front in the Science-Superstition Wars is in the realm of biology; specifically, Darwin & Wallace's theory of organic evolution.
Nearly 150 years and several monkey trials later, fundamentalists in the United States (and this seems to be where this stuff comes from) still refuse to surrender. Creationism has not yet been defeated.
How many more years before Evolution will be finally accepted?
now how about a dinosaur with 2 stumps where wing should be or with 2 very poorly formed wings? surely it isnt a case of:
dino: "hmm... wouldnt mind flying! i might give birth to winged babies"
surely theres steps inbetween, surely theres lots of steps inbetween. where are they?
Ok so i dont think creation is 100% correct, but then neither is evolution.
. The ancient Catholic Church could enforce its will through military force and terror; in 21st century America, the more loosely organized Protestants simply outmaneuver scientists by dominating school boards and forming political pressure groups.
That will be their downfall.
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How many more years before Evolution will be finally accepted?
most people accept it, the people who don't just seem to be more vocal. If people choose not to accept Evolution, well it's their outlook; no skin off my nose
Argonavis said.....
Alex - what evidence would convice you that you are wrong?
Probably evidence that may already be there..big bang is not simple for me. I should really say I neither accept or reject it ..which is more to the truth and the truth is I am looking at whatever I can to learn more.
alex
I do feel however in respect of inflation it is beyond reason (my reason at least) and given that the fluctuations sort are in a very small order I suspect there could be room for doubt..also being a cynic I feel that often people find what they seek... could happen to a scientist as easy as a person of faith... both are human and falible.
alex
now how about a dinosaur with 2 stumps where wing should be or with 2 very poorly formed wings? surely it isnt a case of:
dino: "hmm... wouldnt mind flying! i might give birth to winged babies"
surely theres steps inbetween, surely theres lots of steps inbetween. where are they?
Ok so i dont think creation is 100% correct, but then neither is evolution.
the steps in between is called gliding, which is still with us with gliding possums etc, muscles and flight evolved from the survival advantages of being airborne.
and only a very small %age of fossils have been discovered
the steps in between is called gliding, which is still with us with gliding possums etc, muscles and flight evolved from the survival advantages of being airborne.
and only a very small %age of fossils have been discovered
still not convinced... it like "its true, we just cant prove it!". sounds exactly like creation theorys argument to me... creation is 100% true, they just cant prove it either.
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with all the evidence, it would be very difficult to say evolution is not almost 100% correct, it is about as certain as anything in science.
Brad,
Yes, I did miss this the first time – the thread just exploded with posts.
Thanks for the link to the Catholic site. It basically confirmed what others (devoted Catholics) had told me. The church is somewhat enlightened (by Science standards) and has no problem with evolution or the Earth/Universe being billions of years old. This was providing God effectively set the wheels in motion in a Universe that had a defined beginning. Which the current concept of the Big Bang fits in well. I really liked the following quote from this page.
“Catholics should weigh the evidence for the universe’s age by examining biblical and scientific evidence. "Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth" (Catechism of the Catholic Church 159).
The contribution made by the physical sciences to examining these questions is stressed by the Catechism, which states, "The question about the origins of the world and of man has been the object of many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man. These discoveries invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the Creator, prompting us to give him thanks for all his works and for the understanding and wisdom he gives to scholars and researchers" (CCC 283).”
Although I no longer consider myself religious, I admire the skill of a God that can create the Big Bang and at that point put in motion all the laws of nature that eventually lead to us.
With regard to ‘irreducible complexity’, I’m no expert, but I believe Science has an answer to this concept. Don’t miss understand the scientific method – evolution, is continuing being questioned by science. That’s how we progress, and often answers will create new questions. The day we have no questions left will be a problem, because it means we think we know everything!
Do the IDers question themselves? Or are they too busy putting the boots into science. Who’s to say the ‘creator’ has to be God. Why not an alien race from Sirius (I know a little 2001ish, but a valid question).
This brings me to a question for the group as a whole. Does anyone know if the ID currently being proposed for schools pushes for God as the creator, or are they willing to admit, like science does, when they don’t know (remember God created the aliens so why not use them as his tool). If it is God does this extended to the 6-day creation, 6000 year old Universe. If it does it flies in the face of the Catholic Church’s beliefs.
Brad, to answer your original question about whether only Evolution should be taught in schools. By answer is yes, I think ID (and any similar creation myths) should stay with the churches (whichever religion) – oh btw would the ID churches like to teach evolution at Sunday School? Let’s allow equal time.
Well I'm suprised this thread has lasted so long without being locked. However, most of this thread has turned to pointless drivel.
At the end of the day, no side will genuinely win by turning the other sides opinion. Why can't you all simply accept that some people believe creationist theory, some people believe evolution theory, and let it rest at that.
If anyone is undecided then there is a plethora of information available from both sides of the argument available for them to research at their own leisure. Otherwise, this thread is about as productive as a broken record.
yeah we generally do accept that some are believers and others arent. still its interesting to debate the point in a civilised maner. but yes this has tappered off considerably.
Well I'm suprised this thread has lasted so long without being locked. However, most of this thread has turned to pointless drivel.
At the end of the day, no side will genuinely win by turning the other sides opinion. Why can't you all simply accept that some people believe creationist theory, some people believe evolution theory, and let it rest at that.
If anyone is undecided then there is a plethora of information available from both sides of the argument available for them to research at their own leisure. Otherwise, this thread is about as productive as a broken record.
You know Andrew,
You might be right and stuff like this always tends to go in circles and I'm not sure I feel like contributing much more, unless responding to specific questions.
- feel free to leave, no one's forcing you to even read it.
Andrew I agree with Ving but in addition I am sure most here are now coming round to my way of thinking besides its like complaining this thread is like complaining about "neighbours" or "Big Brother" on TV you can pretend that you are not really looking or even turn them off .
I think the humour contained through out this thread is hillarious.. when you read this thread four or five times only you miss the subleties but after 7 or 8 readings you can discover some very witty things . Still I will re read it a few more times because I am sure there is even more lurking below the lines .
What this thread has done above all else is allow people to vent their thoughts which generally in these areas are confined to folk of like thought ..yet here we have a a chance to hear others and comment. I think the frustrations relieved are probably greater than the frustrations caused.
...I was going to ask a question about a practice I only just heard about.. where believers are for whatever reason, they say the hand of God is the reason, can speak in a language previously unknown to them???? but apparently they are able to speak different languages without even learning them and apparently without having been taught that language??? .
The person who told me is decent and truthful so it does make one wonder how someone could be instantly able to talk German for example if they had never been there .. There seems no explanation how they can receive these skills instantly. I can not understand how any thing like that can happen but as I say this is a honest person who told me of such a thing, so I was going to ask.
Rather than mention it I will look on the net. I dont know where to start.. I mean what do you Goggle?
alex
Rules for some and not for all, I think would be the case.
regards,CS sunny days
Rob, This forum is still evolving a bit like this thread in some ways. None of us Mods or Admin propose to be perfect, we do the best we can to try and make this place comfortable for all, but innuendo helps no-one.
I think what was different in this thread, well for me at least, is that the post originator comprehensively "bound" the limits of potential discussion, with his lead-in comments and observations, whereas in the past, when possibly similar (genuine) posts appeared with just a http link to say "have a look at this", the more open, or less bounded nature of those threads tended to attract increasingly wilder responses as the intellectual and faith chasms opened up.
So yes, it can appear inconsistent (and quite personal, especially when it happens to us), but then again, I suspect in the hurly burly speed of on-line life, it is also quite a tough call to make; when to nip something in the bud before it potentially degenerates into an on-line brawl.
That is, if my memory is still reliable at recalling events accurately. If not, I'll just shut up and hope the clouds clear for some viewing tonight.
Rob, This forum is still evolving a bit like this thread in some ways. None of us Mods or Admin propose to be perfect, we do the best we can to try and make this place comfortable for all, but innuendo helps no-one.
innuendo? my statement was direct
however I'm cetain if the first post in this thread had "CoombellKid" attached
to it, it would of been locked as fast as mine was which took about 20
minites, gee that was enough time for genneral discussion... NOT!
Another excuse just offered to me was three people said "this'll get locked"
when has that been a precusor to locking a thread?
As far as I'm concerned they should of been treated as spam (especially
the first reply), but I didn't even get a chance to complain about that post
before it was locked. It would of been counted as SPAM on any other thread.
I didn't ask for them to reply in that way nor did my post invite such a reply
anymore than this one would, but just lock it any way and stiffle
any discussion that may of come from it.
anyways I'm not going to further this argument here, since there is no
chance of being heard and you will quickly delete this post. If the only
throw back from you is "innuendo" then "Elitism" and not "moderator" would
be the right word for you you can cry all you like about the hard work
you do moderating this forum, but hey here's an idea you were offered the
job so dont complain. And save your excuses for someone else
I dunno Rob - worse things have happened to me...I'm still trying to live down my embarrassing chat with Ponders G11 and scope cover at Astro fest (blush) - it sure looked like him in the dark. If you hadn't have noticed, I reckon I might have got away with it.
besides its like complaining this thread is like complaining about "neighbours" or "Big Brother" on TV you can pretend that you are not really looking or even turn them off
. Still I will re read it a few more times because I am sure there is even more lurking below the lines
which took about 20 
you can cry all you like about the hard work
