Consequences

[Outcast (Carlton)]

Genuine 'Personal Responsibility' & 'Accountability' are long dead in not only this country but, I would argue the Western world in general...

Sure, we talk about it alot, hell we even try to educate our children about it but, in reality there is little to no such thing. We live in the times of 'not my fault'!!

An the examples are from the top down... just look at the lack of accountability in government, or anywhere else that one would think should be setting an example...

Our judicial process, sentencing leniency, etc.. simply reflects the reality of societal attitudes.. Sure, now and again we all get outraged by an incident (and with good reason) but, on the whole, the 'it's not my fault' attitude/culture in our society pervades, persists & wins out...

My 2 cents...

As to this incident & the associated scams that have come to light is pretty much why I have arrived at the belief that in general.. People are sh*t!!

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by ngcles

Hi Peter & All,

Having dealt with a great many people in Court as the prosecutor who .....
Best,

L.

Thank you Les for your erudite input....while some time behind bars will (thankfully) be the likely result, the concurrent sentencing paradigm is disturbing.

Turns out, he took four young lives that night (3 siblings, plus one cousin)

I actually drink and drive....and quickly qualify that by saying a glass of wine with a meal will not put me anywhere near current limits, nor impair my driving one iota.....but....going on a bender all day then getting behind the wheel...aye carumba... WTF? Yet sadly this is what this individual did.

Ten years per life, non-concurrent. Might make many think twice...or at the very least, remove them from our streets effectively forever.

[bobson (Bob)]

Peter,
"I actually drink and drive....and quickly qualify that by saying a glass of wine with a meal will not put me anywhere near current limits, nor impair my driving one iota....."

At least you admit although most people who commented except myself and one more obviously "enjoy" a few drinks and drive. OK, most know they will be under legal limit or so they think.

The question still remains if that one drink as you said wont affect your ability to drive why then P drivers, bus drivers, pilots have zero limit?

Not trying to put anyone on the spot but those things are out there as we all know.

cheers
bob

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by bobson

Peter,
"I actually drink and drive....and quickly qualify that by saying a glass of wine with a meal will not put me anywhere near current limits, nor impair my driving one iota....."

At least you admit although most people who commented except myself and one more obviously "enjoy" a few drinks and drive. OK, most know they will be under legal limit or so they think.

The question still remains if that one drink as you said wont affect your ability to drive why then P drivers, bus drivers, pilots have zero limit?

Not trying to put anyone on the spot but those things are out there as we all know.

cheers
bob

I guess it comes down to individual responsibility. If you're boozing with your mates, jump in a ute pissed to get some money from the ATM around the corner, go through a red light while driving on the wrong side of the road and run over people on the side walk then you expect a harsh punishment. There's no need to make a law that is so restrictive that everybody who had a glass of wine can't drive. What's next? No mobile phones in cars because some idiots still text? No bottled water in cars because some idiots lean over to grab a drink while driving and run into a preschool class room full of kid? How about harsher individual sentences for the ones who actually stuff up. Then maybe the rest will think twice about it. Leaving alone the majority who have half a brain alone going about their daily business without the PC and restrictions.

[bobson (Bob)]

Marc,

"There's no need to make a law that is so restrictive that everybody who had a glass of wine can't drive."

This is from your personal view and I respect that. But, if that's a case as you said "there's no need" What need law makers had in mind when they made that rule to be different for P drivers, bus drivers, pilots etc?

Bob

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by bobson

Peter,
..............
The question still remains if that one drink as you said wont affect your ability to drive why then P drivers, bus drivers, pilots have zero limit?

Not trying to put anyone on the spot but those things are out there as we all know.

cheers
bob

I retired from international flying with a little over 20,000 hours in my log book, and am pleased to say never even scratched the paint. And always observed the "eight hour bottle to throttle" rule.

That said, while on a positioning flight I took the opportunity to visit the flight deck of a French carrier...where... to my surprise one of the crew has a small glass of wine with his crew meal. He laughed..and said of course... as it was french wine!

Not all regulators are totally anal. I think the DGAC (French equivalent of CASA) allowed for 0.01 blood alcohol limit for crew....but that may have changed.

There is some evidence to suggest very small amounts of alcohol act a as a stimulant. Of course, in larger quantities it becomes a depressant, with 0.05 being deemed to be the "unaffected" limit for motorists.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by bobson

Marc,

"There's no need to make a law that is so restrictive that everybody who had a glass of wine can't drive."

This is from your personal view and I respect that. But, if that's a case as you said "there's no need" What need law makers had in mind when they made that rule to be different for P drivers, bus drivers, pilots etc?

Bob

For sure I'm part of the ones who enjoy a good drop with some food. I grew up with table wine at every meal and as kids we had a drop to tint our water. Might be viewed as child abuse nowadays. I just dislike" carpet bombing" laws putting everyone in the same bag for things that are just individual common sense. Some will call it nanny state. But there is revenue in some of them.

Can't talk about public transport. I assume when you're driving a vehicle and you have a crowd at the back you're responsible for then it's a whole other ball game. P platers, well, they cope a lot of sh|t but were we really any better? And what's the difference between them and us right now? Maybe they're more enclined to party so a limit might apply. I don't know.

My point is that you surely can't take everything that is good and enjoyable in life because a few morons abuse it.

[AndyG (Andy)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

I just dislike" carpet bombing" laws putting everyone in the same bag for things that are just individual common sense. Some will call it nanny state. But there is revenue in some of them.
...
My point is that you surely can't take everything that is good and enjoyable in life because a few morons abuse it.

As a gun owner I fully understand your point. Apparently to some (most, I dunno..) there's no difference between my (well meaning) self, and a school shooter. If I was a lamer, I'd could easily be "offended" by such. Though in these times, being offended means I'd just disappear into the crowd...

[xelasnave]

Terrible things happen. Justice seems un satisfied ...but we dream of things and how they can be better...that is such a joy ...all else can be set aside...we hope and so we do better.
Alex

[Ukastronomer (Jeremy)]

Originally Posted by Outcast

Genuine 'Personal Responsibility' & 'Accountability' are long dead in not only this country but, I would argue the Western world in general...

Sure, we talk about it alot, hell we even try to educate our children about it but, in reality there is little to no such thing. We live in the times of 'not my fault'!!

An the examples are from the top down... just look at the lack of accountability in government, or anywhere else that one would think should be setting an example...

Our judicial process, sentencing leniency, etc.. simply reflects the reality of societal attitudes.. Sure, now and again we all get outraged by an incident (and with good reason) but, on the whole, the 'it's not my fault' attitude/culture in our society pervades, persists & wins out...

My 2 cents...

As to this incident & the associated scams that have come to light is pretty much why I have arrived at the belief that in general.. People are sh*t!!

I couldn't agree more.

I was always raised to believe in TWO things

Treat others as YOU would expect to BE treated and if you would not write it and sign it don't say it

People these days think they have NO responsibility to others, such as saying what they like online and sod others, feelings or beliefs etc.

[Tropo-Bob (Bob)]

Alcohol is a factor in around 30% of road accidents in Aus. Bring in the 0.02% blood alcohol content limit.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by Tropo-Bob

Alcohol is a factor in around 30% of road accidents in Aus. Bring in the 0.02% blood alcohol content limit.

The limit was 0.08 for a time. Now 0.05
I would not agree with 0.02....draconian Nanny state rubbish that penalizes
the many due an irresponsible few.

The alleged offender in this case was 0.15....WAY over the limit, and of course
at such levels is THE factor for this tragedy.

Being an irresponsible tool with likely lame consequences from his behavior are the problem....the government would rather fine people, than pay for their incarceration for 30 years.

[Tropo-Bob (Bob)]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

The limit was 0.08 for a time. Now 0.05
I would not agree with 0.02....draconian Nanny state rubbish that penalizes
the many due an irresponsible few.

The alleged offender in this case was 0.15....WAY over the limit, and of course
at such levels is THE factor for this tragedy.

Being an irresponsible tool with likely lame consequences from his behavior are the problem....the government would rather fine people, that pay for their incarceration for 30 years.

It's not just this idiot. As said, alcohol is a factor in 30% of road accidents in Australia.

[blindman]

Originally Posted by Tropo-Bob

Alcohol is a factor in around 30% of road accidents in Aus. Bring in the 0.02% blood alcohol content limit.

Don't be silly Bob, we as a colony should have 0.8 as our parent country England.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by Tropo-Bob

It's not just this idiot. As said, alcohol is a factor in 30% of road accidents in Australia.

Yes, and global warming has had a direct effect of the shrinking number of pirates since the 1800s....the curve is almost perfect.

Correlation is not causation. I am not a fan of various "stay safe committee" stats.

The percentage of alcohol related deaths in Sweden (BAC limit of 0.02) and Denmark (BAC limit 0.05) are both 19%....both interestingly 11% lower than the Oz figure.

Given they have lower alcohol deaths and in one case a much lower BAC limit
it would be fair to say something else is in play.....maybe better driver training? stiffer penalties? Probably worth finding out rather than a nebulous and simplistic "was a factor" argument.

[JA]

Originally Posted by blindman

Don't be silly Bob, we as a colony should have 0.8 as our parent country England.

A person with a 0.8% Blood Alcohol would almost certainly be dead due to extreme alcohol poisoning. You may have meant 0.08%.

Best
JA

[pgc hunter]

Bring in a 0.02% limit? What BS. How is yet another blanket nanny state revenue-raising law going to stop the few idiots who are multiple times over the current limit? The incurably stupid will still try their luck drunk driving regardless of the legal limit. It's not people that had a glass or two with dinner that are causing deaths out there. Yes, let's take away another basic pleasure because of a few idiots. Goodness me.

[Outcast (Carlton)]

Originally Posted by pgc hunter

Bring in a 0.02% limit? What BS. How is yet another blanket nanny state revenue-raising law going to stop the few idiots who are multiple times over the current limit? The incurably stupid will still try their luck drunk driving regardless of the legal limit. It's not people that had a glass or two with dinner that are causing deaths out there. Yes, let's take away another basic pleasure because of a few idiots. Goodness me.

Could not agree more...!!

It's the same as when speed limits on highways are reduced from 110km/h to 100km/h because some idiot wrote him/herself, their passengers & another innocent party off because they lost control at 180km/h

Punish the offenders, severely!! Send a message Loud & Clear to those who cannot control themselves & leave the rest of us alone!!

However, it seems to be the way of things these days... put in some BS law because it's the simplest thing to do & to the average moron out there in public land, it looks like we're doing something...

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by Outcast

Could not agree more...!!

....snip

Yes, but don't mince your words..... tell us how you really feel Carlton

[FlashDrive (Poppy)]

I know this is different, but Alcohol changed my life as a baby at around 2months old.

My twin sister and I were ' taken ' from our Parents in the 50's.

I have documented deaths certificates of both my Parents cause of death.

Renal Failure....Alcohol Poisoning...!!

We both ended up in a ' Baby's Home ' , not old enough to be put into an Orphanage ....when we were 3 years old , a lovely lady and her Husband decided to take us into their care with intention of adopting both of us.

The Adoption was granted on our 8th Birthday.

Where would life had taken me if Alcohol hadn't played such a large part of my Parents lifestyle.

He was a German Merchant Seaman , and my real mother was part Aboriginal born in Kempsey ....they never made it passed 60.

Buy the way, this is not a ' sob story ' I thought I'd just share it.

Col.....