Has Science lost its way?

[redbeard (Damien)]

As long as they keep sending spacecraft into space and can still contact and manoeuvre them years later then no, science has not lost its way. We are now in a world where business and corporates set the standards but I still see plenty of good science on track. Science is pretty diverse and the corporates don't have it all.....Yet!

[xelasnave]

Well we seem to all agree science has not lost its way but do we know where we are going.
What direction should we be going, should the goal be better life for all, better toys, faster cars, better beer.
As a species should we be thinking what can we do to make sure we survive the planet.
Certainly we don't know what we don't know so is there anyone working out what we don't know.
But what do we do next?
Is it to early to make plans for leaving.If our population keeps growing should we be getting rid of species that compete for our food.
Should we move underground to combat rising temps.
What next?
Alex

[glend (Glen)]

Given that the human race is responsible for all of the problems facing earth: climate change, warfare, religion, resource hording, nationalism, etc i don't trust humans to fix anything for the benefit of all. Chaos Theory has a better chance of creating solutions.
If we did somehow develop the capability to send people to other star systems to colonise, you can bet the tribes of the Amazon, the Inuit, etc will never make the jump, cultures are expendible. The people controling the budgets will get to choose. Just as in any large corporate organisation, the closer you are to the central tower of power structure the easier it is to get ahead. I think one of my favourite movies captures it very well: Gattaca.

[xelasnave]

I often think of designing a space ship large enough to house ten billion humans and fit the animals, oceans and forrests we want to keep.
As an exercise, you know just to get one thinking.
I try these things as a way of "counting sheep" so I have not even done any sketches.
Probably one quater of the Earths surface as a ruff figure and fit that by layering up so we get an approx volume, then work out approx mass so we can work out approx energy to move it etc. Then work out time to build etc.
I usually design and build just a house and make a list of materials, down to number of nails, lenghts of electrical wire, paint if put on at a thinkness of x.
I find the strain of remembering all that stuff causes my brain to shut down so I drop off.
But the space ship is so big I dont get past the volume I would be happy with.
And I cant remember what I last set upon so I have to always start from scratch.
So as you can see I am just like anyone who has trouble getting to go to sleep.
Alex

[glend (Glen)]

But Alex how would you power that big Arc type ship? In the program early this week on Gravity Propulsion, the NASA project director gave an example of just how much fuel traditional, present day rocket systems would need to propel a deep space ship to even one tenth light speed, he said you would need the equivalent weight of our Sun in fuel to do that, and of course the ship has to carry it. So using present technology it is not achievable. However, thinking outside the box is discouraged.

[xelasnave]

Well you drop toward the Sun and pick up speed as you pass by you gather all the energy you can (this is a field in itself how to store heat, magnetism anything really) loop by and out when it starts to slow use all that energy plus whatever we have developed to get away from the solar system influence and headed to the next star.
Plus the ten billion humans can blow down a pipe pointing away from where we are going.
Thats the beauty of such a crazy idea you start thinking strang way to achieve the goal.
Not saying anything could work but when you get to brainstorming great ideas often pop out.

And if we have such a craft we really dont have to go far wecould generate power from eliptical orbits.
Working out all the details will take a couple of more nights.
Alex

[xelasnave]

Actually we cant blow down a pipe as we cant lose anything waste air etc must be kept.
Alex

[alpal]

Dear Alex -

we are already on a space ship - it's called Earth.

[N1 (Mirko)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

As a species should we be thinking what can we do to make sure we survive the planet.

Alex, we will not survive the planet as a species, and there is nothing we can do about it. Homo sapiens sapiens will cease to exist long before Earth does, regardless of where else it might set up colonies successfully and regardless of how well it treats our planet's surface and atmosphere. It will go before Earth, either by destruction or evolution.

Re (space) science today - it's doing just fine, although priorities may need revised. Too much effort goes into on putting people on other worlds as compared to things like impactor detection and deflection.

[sjastro]

Originally Posted by bojan

Steven,
thank you!
I guess this issue of mine with term "gauge" has also something to do with the fact that my "mother tongue" is not English..

Bojan,

I'm glad you found something useful came out of this thread, instead of the protestations from the peanut gallery as Dave2042 eloquently stated.

While there is one particular individual at IIS who has let us say has an "unusual attitude" towards scientists, it is comparatively mild to the vitriol served up by anti intellectuals at other sites.
I have been in private contact with one astrophysicist who has explored the idea of legal action against both the individual and the hosting website for defamation.

Unfortunately what this individual has had to put up with (I prefer to keep him anonymous at this stage) is a reflection of what is happening in the US.

https://www.sott.net/article/313177-...own-of-America

I suspect the same attitudes prevail here.

[xelasnave]

Steven within the alarming statistics in your link above I found the following.

"Gallup released a poll indicating 42 percent of Americans still believe God created human beings in their present form less than 10,000 years ago;"

As Adam Savage of Myth Busters fame would say "Well there's your problem".

I have experienced continual attacks from cranks at another site for no other reason than I point out the futility of a non professional trying to re write current established models.

I had a certain sympathy for them given where I started, which thanks to you more than anyone helped me start to understand my ignorance of current models etc, was from the position of a complete crackpot, however they are not the same as I was.

Maybe my memory deceives me but I thought I was calm polite and thankful for help.

They are bullies, they have no interest in learning, when they are pointed in the right direction they claim mainstream is nonsence.
They are so quick to get angry, very angry, and instead of trying to have a polite discussion resort to personal attack.
The threads degenerate into mud slinging which I first avoided, but when I started to throw mud back (which I believe I am good at doing much better than them) they report me for being off topic. So the result is there is no point in getting involved.

One chap is ranting about GWs and how they are wrong, whatever his arguement is not easy to follow, but when a real scientist, foolish to get involved really, points out the lack of arguement, lack of equations etc this crank rips into him rather thank him for trying to help.

The only reason I bother with the site is because there is a layman there who posts very good links to mainstream papers and articles and from those I get some interesting and worthwhile information.
But the cranks obviously drive away folk who could contribute but can see they will be attacked if they hint they support anything mainstream.

The site does what it can to elevate the science but these cranks pull it down.
I often think they tolerate the cranks because the fighting generates high traffic.
One chat who is outrageous gets short bans which would bring a permanent ban at somewhere like Cosmoquest. And when he is banned another crank almost identical in expression and views appears.

But as I said I get a steady supply of interesting links so its useful.

What surprises me is some folk there sound inteligent but believe the craziest of ideas, ufo, afterlife etc.

And I hope my satire was not lost on you and you understand why I started the thread.

And its seems Peter was able to realise he could post his views without ripping into scientists.

And for the record I think our science has not lost its way and I appreciate that there are dedicated a d clever humans who devote so much of their life to gaining an education to give their lives to extending humanities knowledge.
Sorry for the sin of starting sentences with "and" and "but" and other wrongs I ignore or have forgotten.
Alex

[xelasnave]

Mirko
You are of course correct.
But my idea was never about reality it was about getting to sleep.
We humans of course think we are it a d will be around for every.
The uneducated, with only one book on cosmology think that, and even the well educated lean that way.
Its seems that evolution is the rule, it is not, extinction is the rule and evolution is the exception.
The giant lizards had a great run but we know what stopped them, and we know it but will we try to prevent the same fate?
Could we prevent a similar fate?
Moving back to the caves is our best hope.
Alex

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by alpal

Dear Alex -

we are already on a space ship - it's called Earth.

Yes and how we take it for granted.
By saying that I realised the bigest problem in my craft.
Gravity just think of the energy we would need to take care of the problem.
I read that astronauts suffer eye problems cause of pressure on their eyes because of weightless conditions.
No doubt there would be many problems when we move in.
So how to fix that problem.
Artificial gravity or engineer humans for a non gravity environment.
Alex

[Eratosthenes (Peter)]

Apparently some scientists surveyed have a list of problems in science that they wish should be attended to.

We recently asked scientists a simple question: If you could change one thing about how science works today, what would it be and why?
We heard back from 270 scientists around the world, including graduate students, senior professors, laboratory heads, and Fields Medalists. And they told us that in a variety of ways, they feel their careers are being hijacked by perverse incentives.

The top 7 responses are given here

http://www.vox.com/2016/7/14/1212074...allenges-fixes

(although most are true about the profession of science, IMO there are underlying causal and structural problems that need to be addressed)

[xelasnave]

Only 270.
I suggest that is a very small sample of the total number of scientists in the world and given they have time to answer a "survey" could that be suggesting they may be twiddling their thumbs and perhaps indicative of under employement or employement with little or no job satisfaction such that their collective moods are somewhat negative and may not represent the scientists who are too busy to take time out to complete a survey because these unsurveyed scientists are engaged in projects very demanding of their time or that they are enjoying high job satisfaction and would not commit time to a survey which they would rather use enjoying other pursuits with their family or friends.

Alex

[xelasnave]

And what about this....
http://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9216383...ility-research

Alex

[Eratosthenes (Peter)]

Alex, yes always need to watch surveys - questions can be loaded and as you say the sample can be skewed or have a bias in it.

A friend works in academia and his department often gets corporate requests to survey products. Most of the advertisements claiming superior washing powder for example are based upon survey results and he has told me that the sample is tiny and they will repeat survey until they get the results their paying clients want to see. then thy claim "University results" or "independent Laboratory" results show this or that.

Its unethical but because the results are not required for peer review publication, they can do whatever they want.

So that washing powder cleaning brightness isnt based upon some fancy laboratory analytical instrument that measures brightness, but rather asking a group of 10 or 20 people what they think of the bed sheets and towels.

So 270 scientists from various disciplines and professional levels is probably a big sample compared to these "independent" academic surveys of corporate products and services.

(Political surveys are the worse for this sort of bias survey because they are deliberately used in the media as spin. 78% of Australians think we should be tough on refugees for example. You can participants "do you think we should help genuine refugees when they seek asylum in Australia?" and get one result or you can ask "Do you think boat people should be treated like all other asylum seekers and go through the normal channels in a fair and orderly manner" and get another result. Its PR spin industry)

[xelasnave]

Has anyone thought to conduct a survey to determine what percentage of the population have completed a survey?
I heard "they" are doing a survey of 1.2 million galaxies to map dark energy.
Is that a fair sample given the massive number out there.
Sounds a lot but it's not.
Alex

[glend (Glen)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Has anyone thought to conduct a survey to determine what percentage of the population have completed a survey?
I heard "they" are doing a survey of 1.2 million galaxies to map dark energy.
Is that a fair sample given the massive number out there.
Sounds a lot but it's not.
Alex

Ha ha Alex, who are "they" and just who in those 1.2 milltion galaxies are going to fill in the Survey form? I assume it will have to be an online form as Aus Post deliveries might be a tad slow. Even online its going to take a long time to get them back.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by glend

Ha ha Alex, who are "they" and just who in those 1.2 milltion galaxies are going to fill in the Survey form? I assume it will have to be an online form as Aus Post deliveries might be a tad slow. Even online its going to take a long time to get them back.

I knew something sounded fishy but I just could not put my finger on it.
By the time all the forms are in everyone of those galaxies will have moved.
We will need another survey to work out where they moved to.
When I read about the proposed research I thought, as most people probably would, wow that is a lot but really when you think how many are out there a mere million is such a small percentage.
Think of the Hubble deep sky shots, a gain of sand at arms length hides thousands and that result would go for wherever you tried that move.
I wonder if the researcher gets paid for each galaxy. How much time would you give to each galaxy.
You would have to write its name or number, a location, where it is going, speed, mass, luminosity.
Heck you would want at least $50 for each one.
So I wonder how much the grant was?
Is there a survey on how many people make their living from doing surveys.
Are surveys science?
Will it ever stop raining?
Alex