$10 dollar yearly fee suggestion

hotspur (Chris) · #1 29-10-2011, 10:16 AM

Just a suggestion-this is sure to stir up a hornets nest-but that is not my intention-simply an idea to improve this useful site.

Now-there are always going to be issues on any forum.But I did notice over on the fishing forum they have a $10 yearly fee-at first I was not impressed.But it was pointed out to me-all the reasons why-its not cheap to own and run these forums.

How many people join to sell one item,and never come back?

How many people cause issues-get booted off,re join in 3 minutes
under a different name and cause headaches?

Helps eliminate time wasters.

These are just a few reasons why I feel a small fee would help.Its not very
pleasant,to think of having to pay-But I no longer buy astronomy magazines or photography magazine or fishing magazines.

Now they cost a whole lot more that $10 per year,and these forums are a hell of a lot better,for improving my fishing and astrophotography etc.

On this site alone we have free access to some very good information-If you had to buy magazines it would cost alot more and would not be as good .

Anyhow-after having a minor derailment on this site and getting burned,which is no fault of the site or mods.I just had to give some
thought towards a helpful suggestion that might improve it.Some will say
"Oh-Mike makes heaps from all the adds"-but that's crap-would'nt even cover all his headache pills.

koputai (Jason) · #2 29-10-2011, 10:24 AM

Whilst I would be more than happy to pay to use this site if there was a fee, I think instituting one would be detrimental to the overall goodness of the site.

There would be a lot of people who are frequent and very knowledgeable contributors here, that would disappear because they wouldn't want to pay. Anyone who was born in the UK for a start!

Of course, it would keep a lot of the time wasters away, but I think it would drive away some very useful people, as well as deter newcomers to the hobby from joining.

Anyone who is concerned about Mike's children's education can donate to Ice In Space, there's a very useful link to the lower left!

Cheers,
Jason.

OICURMT · #3 29-10-2011, 10:40 AM

You could also go the AstroMart route and charge a one time fee (U$12 for AM).

This would hinder people who are here as "time wasters" to quote Chris...

Either way is cool for me, but I suspect that people trying to get into Astronomy may see the dollars as a hindrance. Also, what about the international community, albeit modest. Transferring money internationally is usually costly for small sums, as there is a minimum transfer fee.

OIC!

hotspur (Chris) · #4 29-10-2011, 10:46 AM

Yes Jason-that's possible. (Had a good chuckle on part of you post

)

But,really-its the 21 st century-those magazines at the news agent are so expensive-at what happens to them all-boxes and

boxes everywhere!
and when I want to read an article on 'Nuggets' how to throw a bait net.I know its in a magazine in one of the ten boxes....Its easier just to go on line and see his little video tut.

And so to with all this photography stuff,I cannot really see anyone coughing too much over ten dollars.Over on the fishing forum still lots of knowledgable
people there that have not run away (no U.K members

)

Really-just a suggestion,being a scientific forum I hope this will be seen with reason and logic.I must say the fishing forum seems to have a lot less headache issues.

GeoffW1 (Geoff) · #5 29-10-2011, 10:49 AM

Hi,

Two things - first why not make this question a poll ? It may have been done already in fact, I never looked.

Then, on balance, I have to agree with Jason, if we are also agreed that the final objective is to have the most thriving and useful forum in Oz (that's my opinion of it).

Having said that, it's obviously high time I made a donation, since nearly every bit of gear and knowledge I have comes from here

Cheers

astroron (Ron) · #6 29-10-2011, 10:55 AM

Paying $10.00 might keep a lot of people off here who only come on too whinge.
this stuff has all been through before.
Do you notice the adds on the side ? they help pay for the site,but but if you want to donate then Mike will gladly except your donations

Cheers

Octane (Humayun) · #7 29-10-2011, 11:09 AM

Keep it free, please. I'm already poor from buying so much gear.

Feel free to donate if you wish. To IceInSpace, too.

H

Brundah1 (David) · #8 29-10-2011, 11:32 AM

Annual fees may defeat the original concept of web based Special Interest Groups! I agree with Jason's comments on this point.

Less experienced members (like me), all benefit from the continued involvement of those older more experienced Amateur Astronomers, who could easily spend their time elsewhere. So why punish them with fees?

However perhaps a join-up fee of AUD10 would achieve a similar outcome to that part of Chris's suggestions. But keep it small, so school age would be astronomers will not be deterred!

More importantly the intention of Chris's suggestion should include the introduction of a more rigorous requirement to provide real personal identity information on the membership form. Plus a more explicit statement beside the "tick the box" - indicating this has legal implications contained in the "Terms of Service and Privacy Policy".

Obviously real personal identity information should be protected within a Privacy Policy statement, but should allow Website Owners the right to provide this information to the Police; when suspected fraud; or other serious breaches of TOS&PP occur.

bojan · #9 29-10-2011, 11:38 AM

Personally, I would go away from this forum if fee is requested for membership.

Despite the fact that it costs a lot to maintain this site, we are still (well, most of us) amateurs and we are here to learn and to offer our knowledge to others
That means, in principle, no money should exchange hands for sharing information, ideas and experience.
Maybe I am wrong, but it is my impression that my contribution to this forum was useful for some (possibly even financially, I will never know that and I don't really want to know) - so how about if I start charging for this in the future?
I am more than sure that many other contributors to this forum would feel the same about the issue should something like this is ever introduced.

Classifieds section might be treated differently, though.
Perhaps a small percentage of the selling price should be contributed to the forum to help offset the cost of running it? However, this will be Mike's decision.

AndyK (Andy) · #10 29-10-2011, 11:48 AM

I belonged to a very active photography forum ... lots of members both in Australia and internationally. A vast amount of collective knowledge and a brilliant resource.

The admins decided to make it a paid site ... a very modest fee, but still a fee.
That was basically the end of the site. Membership dropped precipitously within the first few months. People disappeared in droves ... among them some of the most experienced amateur photographers in the country.

The admins did a backflip and changed the policy to voluntary donation ... but it was too late. Too many people had left and never came back. The site is still going but now only has a handful of members. In less than a year the site went from being probably the prime site in it's genre in Australia to complete obscurity and irrelevance.

koputai (Jason) · #11 29-10-2011, 12:02 PM

I know that Chris's main idea was the added security of people paying, rather than supporting site costs, however, these are two important points that can be addressed separately.

Security (for want of a better word) can be achieved through more rigorous joining and posting restrictions.

Site costs can be ammeliorated by donations.

Perhaps we could have a yearly donation drive. Say once a year a thread gets posted where people can make a donation for the following year. No strings attached, but an organised short term thread might get more people to donate than just leaving it up to them over the year.

Another alternative is a 'badge' type system. If you donate $100 you get a gold badge on your avatar for a year, $50 silver, $25 bronze, $10 Chinese diecast alloy.

Cheers,
Jason.

Octane (Humayun) · #12 29-10-2011, 12:19 PM

Hrm, this talk of money makes me feel uneasy, to be honest.

Neither Mike, nor, Terry have come out and said that they need money to keep the site afloat. Until that day comes, I should think that those who wish to donate, can do so by clicking the donate link, while those who wish to enjoy the site as is, continue to do so.

Bojan raises a good point -- the help and assistance that people provide on this site is for free. Some may argue that the knowledge transferred from people to people is worth more than a fee to use the site. If a fee was introduced, those amateurs wouldn't see a cent.

H

hotspur (Chris) · #13 29-10-2011, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brundah1

Annual fees may defeat the original concept of web based Special Interest Groups! I agree with Jason's comments on this point.

Less experienced members (like me), all benefit from the continued involvement of those older more experienced Amateur Astronomers, who could easily spend their time elsewhere. So why punish them with fees?

However perhaps a join-up fee of AUD10 would achieve a similar outcome to that part of Chris's suggestions. But keep it small, so school age would be astronomers will not be deterred!

More importantly the intention of Chris's suggestion should include the introduction of a more rigorous requirement to provide real personal identity information on the membership form. Plus a more explicit statement beside the "tick the box" - indicating this has legal implications contained in the "Terms of Service and Privacy Policy".

Obviously real personal identity information should be protected within a Privacy Policy statement, but should allow Website Owners the right to provide this information to the Police; when suspected fraud; or other serious breaches of TOS&PP occur.

Well worded David.

That is along the lines of my suggestion-in fact it would appear a small one off fee might be better.

I do finding it very surprising that some replies are aghast at the suggestion.I can really see no logical reason why some would bail out
and other photography forums died from something similar.But many of these
same people would not worry about the price of cigerattes and booze.

The fishing forum that has the $10 yearly fee is like the size of POTN-i'd never have time to get around all the sub forums.But its not died at all.
Suppose-most astronomers are much tighter after seeing what goes on here.

Anyhow-its simply a suggestion,and up for reasonable and logical discussion not a KKK bon fire.

Other forums I am on have free membership free everything,but if you pay a yearly fee or a one off fee,you do get extra's-like lots of 'Pigeon holes' (not sure what the right name is.But it means you can store threads,images,all sorts of stuff,that you can do only on a limited basis on the free plan-which is still very good.

I think most here,end up regularly visiting two or three of their hobby forum.So I feel that a small fee of 0.03 cents a day is not all that expensive.

Anyhow-that's the last I'll suggest on it

vanwonky (Dave) · #14 29-10-2011, 12:45 PM

As much as I would like to see Mike making money from this site I also think the joining fee would kill it. I think the depth / value of some forums aren't immediately apparent when you have just come across it from a search and if you are hit by a fee straight up you might just take off without finding out. Especially for newbie who might be just toying with the idea of astronomy like me. Now look - I can't afford a fee from buying something new every five minutes!
I know I hate forums that insist on you joining before viewing content. I can't think of one that I have joined and for me a fee would have the same effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by koputai

... Another alternative is a 'badge' type system. If you donate $100 you get a gold badge on your avatar for a year, $50 silver, $25 bronze, $10 Chinese diecast alloy.

A bit elitist methinks

Cheers
Dave

AndyK (Andy) · #15 29-10-2011, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hotspur

... I can really see no logical reason why some would bail out and other photography forums died from something similar ...

It's simply human nature. While the photography forum in question might have been the best one, it wasn't the only one. Their main competition remained free ... so guess where all the members went?
The site that remained free is now probably the premiere site in Australia.
You couldn't really expect any other outcome. Nobody is going to stick around an obscure and unpopulated forum just because they have strong principles ... particularly when all the movers and shakers have gone elsewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hotspur

... But many of these same people would not worry about the price of cigerattes and booze ...

I find that perhaps a tad offensive. Not everyone who doesn't support the idea of mandatory fees is a hopeless bogan who blows their paycheck on booze and cigarettes. How do you know who here may have already donated ... and to what extent?

OICURMT · #16 29-10-2011, 01:18 PM

Maybe a little different spin here... thoughts welcome.

What if the site was strictly a one off payment for the privilege of posting items for sale? No one is specifically stating it, but I suspect that everyone is most concerned with the problematic members (be they new or old) when they post items for sale. A fee would deter them, but not eliminate them.

The main advantage would be that at least a "paper trail" could be generated as the administrators would at least have a single piece of critical information to give the authorities should they request it. IIS could change the TOS to specifically include an addition that IIS reserves the right to pass on details to the designated authorities should they request the information in cases of fraud or theft.

This would probably give IIS buyers some comfort and allow those who do sell an easier time of it.

OIC!

Octane (Humayun) · #17 29-10-2011, 01:20 PM

OIC,

Mike has stated numerous times that he has no interest getting involved in that type of setup.

I don't blame him, either.

H

AndyK (Andy) · #18 29-10-2011, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OICURMT

?.. What if the site was strictly a one off payment for the privilege of posting items for sale? No one is specifically stating it, but I suspect that everyone is most concerned with the problematic members (be they new or old) when they post items for sale. A fee would deter them, but not eliminate them ...

It might well be that the classifieds section is the most problematic ... but is a fee the best way to deal with that?

Many other forums which run classifieds require a certain period of membership along with a demonstrable degree of participation in other areas of the forums before being allowed to post items for sale.

OICURMT · #19 29-10-2011, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyK

It might well be that the classifieds section is the most problematic ... but is a fee the best way to deal with that?

Bottom line is that there is no easy solution... as for the best way, face to face is the only way to completely avoid any pitfalls.

OIC!

OICURMT · #20 29-10-2011, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Octane

OIC,

Mike has stated numerous times that he has no interest getting involved in that type of setup.

I don't blame him, either.

H

Message received.

I guess the obvious way to avoid the pitfalls of having a classified section is to eliminate it...

Me thinks' that Chris has opened a can o'worms with this topic...