Because at my age I still have at least 50 years with which to use whatever I get into debt for..
I wouldn't get into debt for a holiday, a car, a big television or anything like that, these things dont really interest me enough to warrant borrowing money I dont have to do it. If I have the money, sure a holiday is always nice... But I wouldnt borrow to do it... I have a lot of friends who would or have done... I do not have any friends who would go into debt for astronomy equipment.. Way I look at it, if I get into debt for a 23 acre block of land under dark skies, it would be a waste of my time not to have an observatory, and a serious imaging system.. Because that's what Im buying the property for..
You wouldnt go on a holiday without buying whatever currency you need to spend there?
I know, I sound young, maybe even stupid to some people, and frankly, I am young, im not the best with money, I love money, because i love to spend money. And should the property i mentioned earlier end up mine, you can bet your bottom dollar there will be a paramount and either a whooping big RC or a serious APO with a large format CCD planted in the back yard...
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt
No offence, Alex...but you do sound like a lot of people around your age.
I'm not saying your 'attitude' toward debt/credit and instant gratification is right or wrong, by the way It's just interesting.
It's a hobby. I limit any expenditure to what I can afford now. If I had no money, I'd do naked eye astronomy and read whatever I could get my hands on.
I know, I sound young, maybe even stupid to some people, and frankly, I am young, im not the best with money, I love money, because i love to spend money. And should the property i mentioned earlier end up mine, you can bet your bottom dollar there will be a paramount and either a whooping big RC or a serious APO with a large format CCD planted in the back yard...
I wouldn't call you stupid. I don't have enough evidence to support that
But too much spending and debt can't be a good thing...if/when everyone's accruing it at the same rate, particularly Gen Y who are huuuuuge credit spenders.
Because at my age I still have at least 50 years with which to use whatever I get into debt for..
I wouldn't get into debt for a holiday, a car, a big television or anything like that, these things dont really interest me enough to warrant borrowing money I dont have to do it. If I have the money, sure a holiday is always nice... But I wouldnt borrow to do it... I have a lot of friends who would or have done... I do not have any friends who would go into debt for astronomy equipment.. Way I look at it, if I get into debt for a 23 acre block of land under dark skies, it would be a waste of my time not to have an observatory, and a serious imaging system.. Because that's what Im buying the property for..
You wouldnt go on a holiday without buying whatever currency you need to spend there?
I know, I sound young, maybe even stupid to some people, and frankly, I am young, im not the best with money, I love money, because i love to spend money. And should the property i mentioned earlier end up mine, you can bet your bottom dollar there will be a paramount and either a whooping big RC or a serious APO with a large format CCD planted in the back yard...
I think that getting into debt within reason can be a good thing when times are good but I think that the current world economic situation is a bit dodgy and it may be time to be prudent for a while and see where the chips fall I am not sure we are through the worst of the GEC I may be over cautious but I think the world could use a little more caution at the moment. We need time to learn from the lessons of the past Decade.
I have lived in debt and out of debt, borrowed for good reasons and not so good, but as a generalisation I found it annoying to be paying off something that became outdated and had dropped its value to the point where the loan balance was three fold what the item could reasonably sell for.
I think the thing to remember is our take home pay is one thing but our disposalble income different again... I hear folk talking about borrowing for another car etc using big numbers and at a later stage complain that they have no cash for another round whatever and so I feel they are living in a phony world presented to them by those who offer credit...credit suppliers are not charities and you pay well for the loan... and often its the little add ons that make the loan very expensive (insurance comes to mind).
I find I am now the happiest I have ever been... rather than buy a house and a mortgage I have 200 acres with no mortgage, the house is not flash nor is the observatory or the gear but the sky is near perfect and so I enjoy the resources I can afford ... AND with no outgoings whatsoever I find that things I want I can save for and usually by the time I have saved the desire for that item has vanished. I had saved cash for new gear but found a boat instead.
I am not wealthy but I always have cash in my pocket and I am never chased for cash that I owe here or there.
Also I think these days although we all want bigger and better the fact is astronomy gear is more affordable than ever ..enjoy that reality... and push your current gear (or the gear you can afford) to the limit... it is after all a hobby and I find little reason to become obsessed to the point that one needs to service extra debt.
Even when I borrowed money it was only via a 1st mortgage which saw better terms than straight personal loans so my car and bike and boat loans were in effect "house" loans.
Also I feel that interest rates may go higher than we expect.
I have lived at a time when house finance went to 18% if you could get it...I know, I know that will never happen again in the rest of time...but it could.... as they say if you ignore history you will repeat it.
alex
Caution and concern for the current economic crisis is what caused the economic crisis in the first place... Money does not go up and down in value unless people do exactly what you're saying, get cautious and stop spending. This is a general flow that we see in the market.. people get spend happy, they spend and spend and spend, interest rates go up, and up and up then all of a sudden, everyone craps their pants, stops spending, and the economy freezes... if they hold out long enough, the slowed economy turns to a recession, if they hold out longer, you get yourself GEC, even longer and look out its the modern day depression... Spending is my "Global Economic Crisis Buster!" I figure, if everyone stops being cautious and flooded the market with cash, wouldn't this recession turn into an economic boom? Maybe im just a dumb 24 year old.. what would I know. But my way of seeing it is that if I can afford to make the repayments, there is nothing wrong with borrowing money to do something that I love doing.. Especially if im going to get into debt anyway to buy this property... Then I figure a little more debt for a lot more enjoyment out of my money is a good thing.. Granted, I wouldnt go doing it if I couldn't afford to service the debt.
And, for what its worth, Credit cards will be the downfall of Gen Y... They love their credit cards and use them for everything from petrol to a packet of cigarettes, car rego to televisions. This, is the type of debt i steer well clear of. I pay all my bills, I buy all my food, and pay all my general living expenses out of my savings... I reserve borrowing money for things like a good reliable car, which one needs to get to work and get paid, and for a home, complete with observatory..
I think I've said what I have to say.. Whether you do what I do or not is completely your decision, I choose my ways you choose yours.. Its the way of the world, everyone's different, I'm happy with my choices, if you're happy with yours, then we are all happy and thats the end of that.
Especially if im going to get into debt anyway to buy this property... Then I figure a little more debt for a lot more enjoyment out of my money is a good thing.. Granted, I wouldnt go doing it if I couldn't afford to service the debt.
Alex, what you are saying makes good sense. If you were going to borrow a truckload of money just for astro goodies then..... Buying land and taking a little extra makes sense as long as you are able to service the loans and still live.
I would buy astro toys with my hubbys credit card without even thinking twice about it But i would be paying the consequences later on he would kill me LMAO
Caution and concern for the current economic crisis is what caused the economic crisis in the first place... Money does not go up and down in value unless people do exactly what you're saying, get cautious and stop spending. This is a general flow that we see in the market.. people get spend happy, they spend and spend and spend, interest rates go up, and up and up then all of a sudden, everyone craps their pants, stops spending, and the economy freezes... if they hold out long enough, the slowed economy turns to a recession, if they hold out longer, you get yourself GEC, even longer and look out its the modern day depression... Spending is my "Global Economic Crisis Buster!" I figure, if everyone stops being cautious and flooded the market with cash, wouldn't this recession turn into an economic boom? Maybe im just a dumb 24 year old.. what would I know. But my way of seeing it is that if I can afford to make the repayments, there is nothing wrong with borrowing money to do something that I love doing.. Especially if im going to get into debt anyway to buy this property... Then I figure a little more debt for a lot more enjoyment out of my money is a good thing.. Granted, I wouldnt go doing it if I couldn't afford to service the debt.
And, for what its worth, Credit cards will be the downfall of Gen Y... They love their credit cards and use them for everything from petrol to a packet of cigarettes, car rego to televisions. This, is the type of debt i steer well clear of. I pay all my bills, I buy all my food, and pay all my general living expenses out of my savings... I reserve borrowing money for things like a good reliable car, which one needs to get to work and get paid, and for a home, complete with observatory..
I think I've said what I have to say.. Whether you do what I do or not is completely your decision, I choose my ways you choose yours.. Its the way of the world, everyone's different, I'm happy with my choices, if you're happy with yours, then we are all happy and thats the end of that.
I just really hope that your situation does not change drastically and that everything keeps going the way you want. But I have to be honest it was not caution that caused the GEC it was that too many risks were taken how else can you explain all the huge companies that were supposedly to big to fail collapsed and the tax payers had to bail them out in America this is where it came from when I say cautious I don't mean not spending but Sub Prime loans and dodgy dealing were behind the GEC not cautious spending. A friend of mine who was trading shares kept telling me that it was going to just keep going up up up and for the last 5 years I had been warning him about what was to come now he is always complaining about how much money he has lost. I am not a real expert on things economic but I believe that this was a obvious outcome of the way things have been going. Any way I wish all the best for you.
Personal debt is toxic to wealth, but wealth does not mean happiness. Who wants to be wealthy, but unhappy.. <snip> It might cost you an extra $100 a month, and if being very happy is not worth $100 a month to you then I feel utterly depressed for you.. If hoarding wealth is your goal in life, it must be a sad existence... <snip>
I vote happiness over money. Money isn't important, Its not even real in a sense, we're just made to believe that it is.
Interesting to see a different viewpoint, even if it does come with a few loaded assumptions such as accumulating shiny "things" being necessary for happiness.
Also that preservation/building of wealth makes for a sad existance. No, what it brings is security and freedom of choice.
If I want something I buy it. If I dont have the cash or cant justify it I dont buy it.
Im currently out of work and I dont have to worry too much because the house is paid off and theres cash in the bank. Nobody can turf me out onto the street or repossess my car. I have security and freedom of choice in that im not forced to take a "anything i can get job" due to being a debt slave.
Caution and concern for the current economic crisis is what caused the economic crisis in the first place...
No - greedy & irresponsible spending by those in power of these large businesses caused it.
I've long been anti capitalist in my thoughts (and I'm not saying that communism is the answer, which is the retort that most people try and use to belittle my comments). Current capitalistic beliefs lead to an unbalanced society, and is the major cause of our entire social problems (drugs, alcoholism, violence, poor education, so on, and so forth). I find it morally reprehensible that 99% of the world's wealth is owned by 1% of the population. The wealthy are no better than lice that attack your pets imho - bloodsuckers.
Caution and concern for the current economic crisis is what caused the economic crisis in the first place... Money does not go up and down in value unless people do exactly what you're saying, get cautious and stop spending.
Actually economic growth over the last 20-30 years has been built almost entirely on an ever expanding credit bubble, borrowing from the future. The limits have been hit and the only credit growth is from governments whilst everyone else is deleveraging.
I vote happiness over money. Money isn't important, Its not even real in a sense, we're just made to believe that it is.
I agree entirely, but happiness is a state of mind and not necessarily even influenced by money or material possessions... but a lot of people in marketing make their living out of making you think that happiness comes exactly from these things.
Learn to be happy without the possessions and the debt before you spend... and only borrow what you need to stay in the game.
You don't have to take any notice of me obviously, but I've learned the above the hard way and it works for me.
Interesting to see a different viewpoint, even if it does come with a few loaded assumptions such as accumulating shiny "things" being necessary for happiness.
Accumulating shiny "things" is not necessary for happiness.. However Astro-imaging in dark skies makes me very happy... I will never save enough money to buy the property where I plan to live without debt. and if I must go into debt to buy the property with the dark skies I see no harm in a little more debt to turn a very nice property with a modest astronomy setup into a very nice property with a full scale observatory, which will in turn, make my astro-photography more enjoyable, as I'll have the ability to do exactly what I want to do..
I agree, Its not for everyone. My choices in life are very different to most people, im fairly unconventional in a lot of ways.. however its the differences in people that make this world enjoyable...
There is a lot to be said for your viewpoint too.. Not being in debt, and having freedom and choice are great... not to mention in your situation, I would not like to be in debt either... Perhaps its short sighted of me to think that I could not be in your position without a job and with debt over my head.. however as I mentioned before, I need to buy a house eventually, Even if I tacked on a 12.5" RCOS, STL-11K, Paramount ME and an FSQ106 onto the property I intend to buy, my debt would still be half that of a person looking to buy a nice house within 20km of brisbane city (which is what most people my age want to buy) I figure, If I want to live out in the country with a whooping big telescope, and if that will make me happy, then thats what I'll do... And if I can do it for half the cost that most people incur to buy their house in the suburbs, then good on me I say...
Not saying those people are wrong for wanting their house in the suburbs, like I said, its out differences that make this world interesting and enjoyable. City life is just not for me... I can get what I want for less than half the amount of money (read: debt) than what I could get what I don't want... Then it all seems like a simple decision doesn't it?
To me its one of many calls on our family's finances - so I treat it as opportunistic, conflict spend.
If I see something that's an absolute bargain, when I'm cashed up and haven't spent on astro in a while - I pursue it. Else I just shrug and think - this is a long term game - I'll get it when I can afford it (versus everything else we want that would improve family life).
I'd love a better camera, a mid sized neo-apo a motorised dome - one day I might get them or not. Life is full of opportunities - doesn't pay to fixiate on just one - that tends to close the door on all the others.
I guy loves fishing it's his hobby he goes and borrows for a decent boat why not do the same for a hobby you love
You go out a spend $30000 on a car which in 10 years will be worth virtually nothing I say buy a cheaper a car and in 10 years it'll still be worth nothing
Often we procrastinate because we feel guilty spending large amounts while our wife's or husbands do not share our passion
My point is that a lot of people will get into debt for frivolous things yet won't for a hobby, which to many of us is a lifelong passion unlike many other hobbies that do fade over time
I haven't needed too yet but when I make my final move into my last house (the one before the nursing home) I'll be tempted
I spent the first 20 years of my life with no debt. I worked but found I could not save, mainly because when I did save I became impatient. I then got a small loan of $3k for helping me through my education and found it very useful. I knew I had repayments and made them without fail. After the loan was paid I continued to pay the repayments into a savings account and used that money to help me buy a much needed new car along with another small loan.
When I got married we had two good incomes coming in and so we borrowed to get a house and just recently I have borrowed to upgrade my car.
If I didn't have the car loan I would borrow for a scope. Luckily I've been able to get a new scope without having to borrow. I get enjoyment from my car and my scope. We can easily afford the repayments at the moment and foreseeable future so I see no harm in taking a loan to get something sooner than later.
I've been on both sides of the fence and I see borrowing as a tool to improve my life by "betting" on my future financial viability. Now I'm not a Gen-Y or iGen, nor am I a baby boomer, I'm Gen-X. I've grown up during prosperous times but I have come from a not so wealthy background and have seen friends who've had everything and lost it so I always make sure I "sleep on it" for every decision.
Without sound tripe you have to go with what you feel but I also think that what Alex has said about happiness vs money is probably more how I think and I've seen some people with money lead what seems to me to be absolutely miserable lives.
Last edited by kustard; 11-10-2009 at 08:30 PM.
Reason: Speeling ;)
To a lot of people, borrowing always seems like a great idea at the time, but less so when they have to pay it back - and can't pay it back. Unfortunately humans have very short memories and seldom learn from mistakes, so the same idiotic mistakes get made over and over again. Yet somehow they manage to claim that it's always the fault of others.
