Electricity bills

[pmrid (Peter)]

Just got my 4th quarter bill. Strewth! I’m paying a Chinese-owned company $0.28/kWh for ordinary usage plus $1.15 a day supply charge. Against that I am credited with $0.11/kWh for solar feed-in. The supply charge effectively means I am not being paid for about 11kWh of solar I feed into the grid. I do get credited for what is left over. The supply charge is effectively wiping out over half my daily feed into the grid. I suppose I could live with that if they actually paid me but so far, after nearly a year of being in credit, they pay me nothing. Wow, what a scam.

Peter

[IanT]

Agree with you that it’s a scam but it’s not restricted to Chinese corporations.
Ian

[Wilsil (Wilco)]

What, more than 9c? We only get 7c.
But we got a $600 credit this year due to covid so the first 8 months will be free.

[pmrid (Peter)]

Originally Posted by Wilsil

What, more than 9c? We only get 7c.
But we got a $600 credit this year due to covid so the first 8 months will be free.

Their trick is to give with one hand while taking away with the other. Lower general tariffs inevitably come with lower feed-in and higher daily access. The 3 shell game is played this way by all providers so the end results are very close to the same no matter what company name is on the bill.

[glend (Glen)]

Originally Posted by Wilsil

What, more than 9c? We only get 7c.
But we got a $600 credit this year due to covid so the first 8 months will be free.

Not every energy retailer buys back solar at the same rate, some pay you better but charge more for the daily connection charge, or higher peak hour rates, or more for off peak dedicated circuits (like hot water systems). This of course makes sure that it is next to impossible for a residential customer to compare suppliers on an Apple to Apple basis. Retailers love this confusion pricing strategy, it stops customer from moving. Market comparison services can advise you on switching but they get paid a fee so keep that in mind, they may not have your situation in mind when making a recommendation.
And as noted in your post, different states provided different support payments to their residents. Clear as mud!

[The Mekon (John Briggs)]

Originally Posted by pmrid

Just got my 4th quarter bill. Strewth! I’m paying a year of being in credit, they pay me nothing. Wow, what a scam.

Peter

No. The scam is that you are receiving credit for your feed in. I would like to see this whole scheme scrapped and anyone with solar panels just use them to augment their own consumption. At present you are profiting at the expense of poor people who cannot afford solar panels.

[lazjen (Chris)]

Originally Posted by The Mekon

No. The scam is that you are receiving credit for your feed in. I would like to see this whole scheme scrapped and anyone with solar panels just use them to augment their own consumption. At present you are profiting at the expense of poor people who cannot afford solar panels.

Not exactly. You get paid for electricity generation that's supplied to the grid. You are limited per hour on what you can supply and are paid very little for it. The "credit" part is just against your imports from the grid and afaik you can't cash that in for real money at any point.

There is no "profiting at the expense of poor people" more than the electricity being supplied at 0.28 by the grid suppliers.

I suspect VPP (Virtual Power Plants) will change things in the future and the FIT will eventually go altogether. Power will be paid for based on market rates (supply/demand) no matter where it comes from.

Any sensible solar owner will be maximising their self consumption vs export to the grid. It is far better to avoid paying $0.28 vs getting $0.11 for every kWh.

[pmrid (Peter)]

Originally Posted by The Mekon

No. The scam is that you are receiving credit for your feed in. I would like to see this whole scheme scrapped and anyone with solar panels just use them to augment their own consumption. At present you are profiting at the expense of poor people who cannot afford solar panels.

Interesting viewpoint. I would like a new car but I can't afford one. But I don't think those driving nice new cars are profiting at my expense.

I worked my nuts off for 50 years and saved hard to be able to afford the things I have. Is saving up for what you want a form of profiteering at the expense of others? Very interesting viewpoint indeed.

I am a self-funded retiree. I get no handouts, pensions or other forms of assistance from government. Is that profiting at the expense of those that do? Very interesting point of view.

Should I not use solar panels to provide for some of my own daily power consumption? Should I volunteer to pay 28 cents a kWh for everything I use so as not to profit at the expsnse of others that are also paying the power grid? Very interesting point of view.

Good luck with that!

[Allan_L (Allan)]

Peter,
Firstly let me declare I have a small Solar panel installation (4.1 kw and pay 65c peak and receive 9.5c selling).

But I don't think John was critical of your solar panels just the rate of the power sell back being offered.
Probably because it was 60c for a few years back at the start up. That was a burden on retailers because Coal burning Power Stations could produce it a lot cheaper then. So it was a sort of subsidised incentive to install.

But 9.5c is comparable to production (I used to work at power station) and is not being subsidised by other users. IMHO

Interestingly solar rates reduced today because excess solar production has REDUCED the wholesale electricity price.

Originally Posted by Energy Aust

Why is your solar decreasing?
As many households now have solar, there's more solar-generated energy going back into the grid. This has reduced the wholesale price of energy going back into the grid during the day when the sun is out.

[The Mekon (John Briggs)]

Originally Posted by pmrid

Interesting viewpoint.
Should I not use solar panels to provide for some of my own daily power consumption? Should I volunteer to pay 28 cents a kWh for everything I use so as not to profit at the expsnse of others that are also paying the power grid? Very interesting point of view.

Good luck with that!

Peter, Like you I am also a self funded retiree - receiving nothing from the Government. This has no bearing on the argument.
Allan L may have given me something to think about and perhaps moderate my views, but to me there is still no doubt that government subsidies to install and then generous credits (in past times stupidly so) can be used by the wealthy to reduce their electricity bills, whereas less well off people cannot afford to take advantage of such schemes.
Now if those with solar panels were to guarantee a certain feed into the grid 24hours per day, then I may look upon your case more favorably. But this would mean paying for batteries.
Why should you be credited anything for feed at times when wind power can drive the cost to zero?

[Camelopardalis (Dunk)]

Originally Posted by The Mekon

Peter, Like you I am also a self funded retiree - receiving nothing from the Government. This has no bearing on the argument.
Allan L may have given me something to think about and perhaps moderate my views, but to me there is still no doubt that government subsidies to install and then generous credits (in past times stupidly so) can be used by the wealthy to reduce their electricity bills, whereas less well off people cannot afford to take advantage of such schemes.
Now if those with solar panels were to guarantee a certain feed into the grid 24hours per day, then I may look upon your case more favorably. But this would mean paying for batteries.
Why should you be credited anything for feed at times when wind power can drive the cost to zero?

Shouldn’t your beef be with the powers that be rather than an individual?

Solar feed-in is logically alien to me, but it’s not unusual for any government to incentivise early adoption of a policy that will later be legislated. It’s one of those things that’s used to generate momentum and eventually bring economies of scale to the masses.

We shouldn’t be looking to make money from this feed-in, merely to reduce our costs of drawing from and reliance on the grid.

If we look at the UK as an example, wind power and (weirdly) solar power has been encouraged by central government to the point now where 65 million people are occasionally drawing on little more than renewables (oversimplifying).

And then there’s the subject of electric cars...I would love one...I can’t afford one right now, but the more are sold in Australia to the wealthy, the more accessible the technology will eventually become. I’d also want the ability to charge my car purely from renewables, but due to the continued pushing of dirty black rocks that’s a bit of a long shot right now

[pmrid (Peter)]

Originally Posted by The Mekon

Peter, Like you I am also a self funded retiree - receiving nothing from the Government. This has no bearing on the argument.
Allan L may have given me something to think about and perhaps moderate my views, but to me there is still no doubt that government subsidies to install and then generous credits (in past times stupidly so) can be used by the wealthy to reduce their electricity bills, whereas less well off people cannot afford to take advantage of such schemes.
Now if those with solar panels were to guarantee a certain feed into the grid 24hours per day, then I may look upon your case more favorably. But this would mean paying for batteries.
Why should you be credited anything for feed at times when wind power can drive the cost to zero?

I installed solar at the time government was virtually begging people to do so by incentivising heavily. Somewhat later I also built a wind turbine to run in parallel but it proved to be unproductive on any useful scale.

I’ve done both wind and solar. I can’t make government policy but I reckon I’d be a bit of a dill if I didn’t install solar. At the time, it was the green thing to do and subsequently, attempts to demonise solar have failed utterly because they were based on wholly specious logic and relied on envy to appeal where the facts didn’t suit.

[bobson (Bob)]

OK guys, hope you dont mind me asking here this questions:

I am thinking to get solar on my roof. There are so many companies advertising and using famous people to advertise such as Allan Border for Sunboost etc. What I should pay attention to when choosing which panels and inverter to get? Also, which company to go with?

I used a few websites such as this: https://www.cleanenergyreviews.info/...-solaredge-abb

to research but still too hard

Thanks in advance!
cheers

[Allan_L (Allan)]

Originally Posted by bobson

OK guys, hope you dont mind me asking here this questions:

I am thinking to get solar on my roof. There are so many companies advertising and using famous people to advertise such as Allan Border for Sunboost etc. What I should pay attention to when choosing which panels and inverter to get? Also, which company to go with?

I used a few websites such as this: https://www.cleanenergyreviews.info/...-solaredge-abb

to research but still too hard

Thanks in advance!
cheers

You have to go with someone you're comfortable with.
My initial venture I went with Origin. A reputable company I knew would not be an overnighter.
But so many companies are so cheap, I did go with a smaller company for second instalment. But I did Google search them first.
If it's too good to be true, it is probably risky.

But solar is the way to go in Aust. Long term good for the environment and your pocket. Check your expected payback period. I save about $200 per quarter, but you have to be prepared to use your power when you have it and asses your usage. A 4.1 Kw (nominal) system generally allows you to use only one high power product at a time! We don't put the toaster and the kettle on at the same time.

[pmrid (Peter)]

Originally Posted by bobson

OK guys, hope you dont mind me asking here this questions:

I am thinking to get solar on my roof. There are so many companies advertising and using famous people to advertise such as Allan Border for Sunboost etc. What I should pay attention to when choosing which panels and inverter to get? Also, which company to go with?

I used a few websites such as this: https://www.cleanenergyreviews.info/...-solaredge-abb

to research but still too hard

Thanks in advance!
cheers

1. The company itself. Will it be around as long as your warranty?

2. Warranties. Whose warranty is it? Do you have to return to country of origin for repairs etc. Look at warranties on both panels and inverter. And are they warranting physical performance or output? Some companies boast “first tier” panels but they are anything but. Do a google on what that means.

3. brand and place of manufacture of panels and inverter.

4. Price. Beware the dreaded free lunch syndrome.

[Arthur Alchin (Arthur Alchin)]

We changed to Redenergy, they pay 8.5c per kWH feed in tariff and maximum i pay for “their power” is 19c /kWH. And it is Aussie owned. We are moving to an acreage “off the grid” in three weeks to their is no feed in tariff or POWER Bill! Yippee

[multiweb (Marc)]

I thought about getting solar panels 8 years ago. The thinking was that working from home during the day I could offset some of my consumption. I did the numbers and it didn't add up in my case money wise. My understanding is that solar would work if it was deployed solely as solar farms upstream and dispatched through the existing grid as high voltage not downstream on people's roof at low voltage. The purpose of the grid is to mutualise the distribution banking on the fact that noone will turn all of their appliances at the same time. It is by far the cheapest, most economical and efficient way to distribute power. The grid has a fixed cost and that is a factor in electricity prices. Solar adds to that cost as capital investments are needed on top of existing costs. People who have solar might reduce their dependance on the grid but not their consumption. Given they use less electricity from the grid and that cost is already fixed then the electricity unit price as a whole will rise and we'll all pay for it in the end. The current system is on its head.

[Crater101 (Warren)]

This has been informative on a number of levels, but there is a minor consideration that I would like to add. I should point out that I'm no expert on electricity, solar panels, or any of the physics that go with it.


We had a small solar array (3.8Kw) installed about 8 years ago. We got the best panels that we could afford, but regardless, the technicians / electricians who installed it were quite open in saying that over time, the efficiency of the solar panels and their connections will slowly but certainly degrade. For anyone with any sort of solar input, regardless of how much you're getting paid for what you contribute (and I certainly take the point about most companies giving with one hand and taking with the other - let's face it, they're in business to make money) the amount that any system is able to feed back or supplement your own needs will reduce over time.


I've noted this in my own system, to a difference of about 10% since the system was installed. I haven't made precise measurements, but the output is viewable on the inverter adjacent to the meter box. And over time, it has reduced. Add to this the (small) loss of power from resistance in the wiring, connections, etc. and I have to wonder how long it will be before we install new panels. Certainly not in the immediate future, but maybe in another 10 or 12 years?? I don't know, and would welcome any feedback on this.



Toasters and Kettles - the installers told us that the two big ticket items for power usage in the average home are the kettle and the iron. Every time you make a cup of tea or iron a shirt, there's a significant power draw.


I think solar is a great thing, and it's made a notable difference to my own quarterly bill, but I still think we have a long way to go. Thoughts?

[Top_oz (Tim)]

At some point in time I think we will end up in a situation where the pricing models need a thorough rethink.

A lot of the network costs are recovered through c/kWh charges (often you don't see this on the bill but a cut of the charge is passed through the retailers). So as distributed renewables start to penetrate further into the market, we may end up in a situation where there isn't enough revenue flowing back to the networks to cover opex.

So either they jack up the c/kWh rates, so you have non-solar customers subsidising those with solar, or they reach a point where you pay $x,000 p.a. to have the security of the grid connection. I suspect consumers won't like either scenario.

Re kettles and irons. Yes their power rating is high but because utilisation is low, energy consumption is also low. In the average home, hot water and heating/cooling are the big users.

[lazjen (Chris)]

There's some good websites out there to help with the research, however, that's the key - you will need to do research.

I've been through this process recently because we want to have battery backup here (various reasons not related to economics). We should be getting the system installed in the next month or so. For the whole package of panels + battery, we should get payback in a bit under 10 years through a combination of increased self consumption and FIT to offset what little we should be drawing from the grid (plus of course, the daily supply charge). It's the solar panels, not the battery that's providing the majority of the economic benefit of the system.

As for the components themselves, the panels are generally now going to last 20 to 30 years (with degradation as noted). Inverters are around 10 years, and the batteries are 10 years too (depending on your cycles/day). That's based on the warranties.

Besides the questions raised in other posts, some other things to consider:
* Noise of inverter - might be important depending on where it's got to go.
* Potential shading of panels - this can reduce output of a "string" and might cost more to work around (microinverters/optimisers)
* Battery? - consider charge rate / draw rate, especially the latter if you want auto switchover to battery.
* Want battery backup - that requires special hardware to isolate your property from the grid if the power drops.
* Auto switchover is not instant - CPU based gear will probably "reboot", so UPS is still required for the low milliseconds to potential couple of seconds required to changeover. And if you choose the Tesla Powerwall 2, you'll need suitable UPS to handle input power frequency changes.
* Hail - there's a standard test for panels - much sure your choice meets or exceeds the tests.
* Panel degradation - you can get details for how much a particular panel will degrade over its lifetime.
* Single vs 3 phase power can impact some choices as well, including how much you can export to the grid.

Warren: you may need to get your inverter checked, but at 10% loss in the system, I probably wouldn't stress over it for a while.