Worms

[CraigS]

Well … one for Bert (& other interested life originists) ...

Onstott's discovery of worms in Earth's depths raises questions about life in space

Onstott's research team, which he led with Gaetan Borgonie of the University of Ghent in Belgium, recently made a startling discovery: microscopic roundworms known as nematodes living nearly two-and-a-half miles beneath the Earth's surface in several South African gold mines.

The worms are roughly a quarter of the diameter of the head of a pin. Although nematode species have been known to live as far as 20 feet below the surface, scientists generally assumed there was no reason to believe the organisms would be found anywhere near the depths of those found by Onstott's team, he noted.
...
it has raised questions about not only the possibility of even more complex organisms miles below the Earth's surface, but also the likelihood of life far into space.

.. doesn't really surprise me, but the possibility that we may have evolved from microscopic roundworms-from-hell, is a classic !

This bit is crucial as far as I'm concerned … we rarely see any thought being given to the possibility that such extremophiles may have evolved at the surface and got washed down to such depths ….

Onstott would also like to complete the gene sequence for H. mephisto and compare it to the genomes of closely related species found near the surface of the mines. This should give him a better sense of whether or not the nematode has adapted or evolved in the subsurface, and help him answer the pressing question of whether or not life can originate so far down, he said.

Cheers

[renormalised (Carl)]

Make good bait for freshwater fishies

[CraigS]

…. or struggling astro-biologists facing budget cuts !

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

…. or struggling astro-biologists facing budget cuts !

I hear they go well with a side salad of mixed vegies

Just lightly tossed in a wok for a minute or two

[renormalised (Carl)]

Or "deep fried" down a gold mine in the Witwatersrand

[xelasnave]

Thanks for that Craig.
As to how they got there interests me less than the fact they are found where they are found.
Life is found in places we could not entertain only a quarter of a century ago... does this give hope to a subterainian inteligent Martian empire...I say it does and funding needs to made availble so we can sink some shafts on Mars....
BUT who knows where life will be found if we never look.
Keep the good stuff coming Craig..you know I think you would make an excellent journalist in the realm of science.... your commentary on the black hole recently was excellent such that even a mug like me could understand it clearly.

alex
alex

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Thanks for that Craig.
As to how they got there interests me less than the fact they are found where they are found.
Life is found in places we could not entertain only a quarter of a century ago... does this give hope to a subterainian inteligent Martian empire...I say it does and funding needs to made availble so we can sink some shafts on Mars....
BUT who knows where life will be found if we never look.
Keep the good stuff coming Craig..you know I think you would make an excellent journalist in the realm of science.... your commentary on the black hole recently was excellent such that even a mug like me could understand it clearly.

alex
alex

A journalist ??? Nah .. I don't drink enough !

… Thanks for the encouragement, Alex.

I'm just trying to repay some of the value I take away from this place.
(I'm not entirely sure this thread is a good example, however … )

Cheers

[M54 (Molly)]

This is a nuffy question, but could they have been transported down on mining equipment and miners boots? And then bred?

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by M54

This is a nuffy question, but could they have been transported down on mining equipment and miners boots? And then bred?

Hi Molly;
I'd say from the last quote in my OP .. that what you say, hasn't yet been ruled out.

Onstott would also like to complete the gene sequence for H. mephisto and compare it to the genomes of closely related species found near the surface of the mines. This should give him a better sense of whether or not the nematode has adapted or evolved in the subsurface, and help him answer the pressing question of whether or not life can originate so far down, he said.

I'm interested in the outcome of such testing, however. It seems to me that this possibility deserves a lot more investigation, in order to rule out such possibilities.

And if they have been transported from the surface, then the implications of the findings, as far as finding exo-life, would seem to be minimal.

Cheers

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by CraigS

A journalist ??? Nah .. I don't drink enough !

… Thanks for the encouragement, Alex.

I'm just trying to repay some of the value I take away from this place.
(I'm not entirely sure this thread is a good example, however … )

Cheers

Drinking like any skill can be learnt and developed with daily practice.

Drinking may also enhance the ability to imagine cities under the surface of Mars...

It is small glimpses of life in odd places that must tell us there is hope to find it in other places where we would discount in the past.

Life seems to set up if there is a free feed I have noticed irrespective of the hardship in many cases.
The life around those underwater lava outflows surprised me... who would have thought ..but there it is.

AND when I look at my own surroundings life can flourish in strange places indeed.

alex

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Drinking like any skill can be learnt and developed with daily practice.

Drinking may also enhance the ability to imagine cities under the surface of Mars...

It is small glimpses of life in odd places that must tell us there is hope to find it in other places where we would discount in the past.

Life seems to set up if there is a free feed I have noticed irrespective of the hardship in many cases.
The life around those underwater lava outflows surprised me... who would have thought ..but there it is.

AND when I look at my own surroundings life can flourish in strange places indeed.

alex

See, this is my problem … none of this surprises me, Alex … perhaps I'm just turning into an old fuddy duddy, or something but when you think about the abundance of life on Earth, what's the big deal about finding it in 'extreme' places on Earth ?

Sure its of interest, but how can its presence in these locations on Earth, in any way, imply anything about the chances of finding it extra-terrestrially ?
(Other than via human caused panspermia/contamination ?)

Cheers

[xelasnave]

There is obviously no direct correlation if you have not been drinking Craig however after a few drinks such extrapolation seems reasonable..or so I would expect given what research, into the effect of drink can do to the human mind, has suggested to me....
My observation is merely one of humans I think...it would not been long ago the prospect of many things we know about today would have been rejected as mere fancy... but we can take away one thing..as I said life has a way of finding a feed and I think we will disover life elsewhere that has found a feed in the most unusual places ..even on other planets....It raises the old question...are we alone etc..was the whole place made for us...to answer those questions NO and NO may seem humble but maybe it could be that way...who knows we can only go on what we see and so far as I said ..life lives where it finds a feed..should we limit possibilities because we only understand food comes from a supermarket?
Anyways I know what I am looking for just fund me and I will look real hard.

alex

[bartman (Bart)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Thanks for that Craig.

Life is found in places we could not entertain only a quarter of a century ago... does this give hope to a subterainian inteligent Martian empire...I say it does and funding needs to made availble so we can sink some shafts on Mars....

Who would have the Land Rights? What taxes would be imposed? Would any endangered species be harmed. Greenpeace. Richard B.Who will be the Foreign Planetary Affairs minister? Can I buy a plot? Mars (Gold) Rush?
Hehehehe

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Keep the good stuff coming Craig..you know I think you would make an excellent journalist in the realm of science.... your commentary on the black hole recently was excellent such that even a mug like me could understand it clearly.

Dito

Bartman

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

See, this is my problem … none of this surprises me, Alex … perhaps I'm just turning into an old fuddy duddy, or something but when you think about the abundance of life on Earth, what's the big deal about finding it in 'extreme' places on Earth ?

Sure its of interest, but how can its presence in these locations on Earth, in any way, imply anything about the chances of finding it extra-terrestrially ?
(Other than via human caused panspermia/contamination ?)

Cheers

Basically, if it can survive and flourish in these sorts of conditions here, then the chances of finding it elsewhere go up dramatically. And what is life, anyway. We tend to think in such narrow terms that it's most likely the case we miss most of the stuff. In actuality, we really don't know what it is that makes things live. For all our probing of the biochemistry, biology and physics of living systems, we haven't a clue as to what life is or represents. We barely even understand how many of the physical systems we've studied, work.

You can argue till the cows come home about the chances and non chances of life's occurrence in the Universe and make the statistics for its occurrence say anything you want. But if you were to argue that we are it, then there are several things that can be said about this. The scientists are deluding themselves and the Church and other wackos have it right, humanity is seriously out of kilter so far as our mental stability is concerned and what would be the point in even bothering to study science, especially astronomy and such. If the rest of the Universe was that hostile to life, even thinking about the deliberate (or otherwise) panspermia of Earth organisms would be an utter waste of time.

Arguing against the possibility of extraterrestrial life just because we haven't found any and only know of one example of life in the Universe is so literal, myopic and narrowminded it's breathtaking in its hubris. We've hardly begun science and yet we think we know it all.

[xelasnave]

Carl it is encouraging to see someone who can respect what we know but also understand the future is not yet know and reasonable speculation is not extreme thinking.
Human experience is all we have... we can only proceed that way..but humans have something I find facinating...imagination...it is a great tool... and using it within reason must be our big thing I suspect... imagination has delivered everything to us so far... it is not hard to imagine that life is not confined to this planet... it would seem arogant to say it was..if you were on the outside making comment what other conclusion could you offer...
But our imagination lets us enjoy specualtion confined to our experience...some imaginings are unreasonable given our experience..others..like finding life in places we would think means death...could let us entertain a possibility that life will be abundant in other plkaqces even places not on this planet...finally it is the old cat in the box problem..you dont know until you take a look... you can guess and project probability but that is mere fortune telling really... the odds have littel to do with who wins the race..odds reflect a market of humans happy to bet and no more than that.

alex

[xelasnave]

Bartman I had to laugh when I noted your comments.
I was having a chat along those lines with someone I had never met before.
Given our human complexity...or our propencity for intrige etc just how would we go..really..just think about it.

alex

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by renormalised

Basically, if it can survive and flourish in these sorts of conditions here, then the chances of finding it elsewhere go up dramatically.

Only if you assume it likely that it has migrated, or been transplanted to a similar exo-environment, in the past. Ie: assume it has been transported, survived, and then it adapted in that exo-environment.
Finding it in such locations on Earth, says nothing about its emergence in those environments, so the assertion that the chances of finding it in exo-environments has 'gone up dramatically', is critically dependent on major assumptions about a lot of unknown variables.
(I notice you didn't mention exo-environments in your words above, also .. but that is what we're talking about, no ?).

Originally Posted by renormalised

And what is life, anyway. We tend to think in such narrow terms that it's most likely the case we miss most of the stuff. In actuality, we really don't know what it is that makes things live. For all our probing of the biochemistry, biology and physics of living systems, we haven't a clue as to what life is or represents. We barely even understand how many of the physical systems we've studied, work.

We have only one definition of life(s) derived from that which exists on Earth.

Originally Posted by renormalised

You can argue till the cows come home about the chances and non chances of life's occurrence in the Universe and make the statistics for its occurrence say anything you want. But if you were to argue that we are it,

.. which I'm not ..

Originally Posted by renormalised

then there are several things that can be said about this. The scientists are deluding themselves and the Church and other wackos have it right, humanity is seriously out of kilter so far as our mental stability is concerned and what would be the point in even bothering to study science, especially astronomy and such. If the rest of the Universe was that hostile to life, even thinking about the deliberate (or otherwise) panspermia of Earth organisms would be an utter waste of time.

Arguing against the possibility of extraterrestrial life just because we haven't found any and only know of one example of life in the Universe is so literal, myopic and narrowminded it's breathtaking in its hubris. We've hardly begun science and yet we think we know it all.

I'm not arguing this … and I find the linkages connecting your above points, involve quantum leaps, opinions, judgements and assumptions.

Cheers

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Only if you assume it likely that it has migrated, or been transplanted to a similar exo-environment, in the past. Ie: assume it has been transported, survived, and then it adapted in that exo-environment.
Finding it in such locations on Earth, says nothing about its emergence in those environments, so the assertion that the chances of finding it in exo-environments has 'gone up dramatically', is critically dependent on major assumptions about a lot of unknown variables.
(I notice you didn't mention exo-environments in your words above, also .. but that is what we're talking about, no ?).

Like I said before, Craig, we only have one example, everything we argue about life elsewhere is based on assumptions. But if we take good old Occam's Razor (and hopefully it's not blunt!!!!), which is something mathematicians and other scientists are so fond of quoting, then all things being equal, life will most likely also be in exo-environments as well. Especially where similar conditions exist as does here on Earth. But as I also mentioned, that is most likely being to narrow in our scope.

Originally Posted by CraigS

We have only one definition of life derived from that which exists on Earth.

Precisely.....way too narrow. that's why we need to look beyond the box.

Originally Posted by CraigS

I'm not arguing this … and I find the linkages connecting your above points, involve quantum leaps, opinions, judgements and assumptions.

Cheers

As I find yours.....so, we're even stevens

In any case, I was being overly dramatic there only to prove a point. That being if all there is, is us, then you're going to have to do some pretty fancy dancing when it comes to the explanations as to why. Can you imagine the churches and such with this....they'd have a field day!!!!. And, what about aliens and all the stuff people go on with about that, science fiction etc etc......flights of fantasy and even delusional behaviour if the argument was the case. And, if the religions were right, why would science even have any real meaning. What any of us actually knows would most likely end up heretical!!!!. Feel like a family BBQ??

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by renormalised

then all things being equal, life will most likely also be in exo-environments as well. Especially where similar conditions exist as does here on Earth.

Chaos theory tells us that even if the exact same initial conditions occur elsewhere, the outcome will not necessarily be the same.
Further, unless we know the exact initial conditions under which life emerged here, we can never predict the outcome, elsewhere.

These are mathematical certainties.

Cheers

[avandonk]

There used to be a cartoon of crabs in a pool called the Pooliverse. Every now and again a dog would stick his head in. He was called the great eyeballs in the sky. Everytime the crabs made progress they would smugly say it was a great step sideways for crabkind!

Sound familiar?

Bert