Adaptive optics possibly the future of future home telescopes?

[mbaddah (Mo)]

I've been watching a few videos on how adaptive optics improves the images of telescopes, and WOW what a difference!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67jF2Ui0AdU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3JkjXco6m0

I was thinking could this possibly be the future of home premium-scopes? Does anyone have any information as to whether this is feasible or not? It would be great to have a theoretical 10/10 perfect seeing each night

[michaellxv (Michael)]

Hmmmm,has got me thinking.

These telescope still use glass to form the basic shape of the mirror. But it is the reflective coating which is actually the mirror. (true?)

The current size of premium home telescopes with a glass based would not be flexibile enough. So either the size of premium home telescopes must go up or a different base material is used which has the required ability to hold its shape and be flexible for the adaptive optics to work.

Either scenario is quite possible and even probable.

[CraigS]

Its a great technology, eh ?

I was reading an interesting article the other day about the laser guide star side of it. They are now going to try to use the principle, to more accurately map the Earth's magnetic field.

Here's the article .. its worth a read, as they describe what they can do by modulating the laser around the sodium 589 nanometre line. This causes the atmospheric sodium layer electron spins to flip, which then effects the brightness with which they flouresce. From this, they can determine the strength of Earth's local magnetic field.

The part relevant to where you're coming from, would seem to be:

In practice, a 20- to 50-watt laser small enough to load on a truck or boat tuned to the orange sodium line (589 nanometer wavelength) would shine polarized light into the 10 kilometer-thick sodium layer in the mesosphere, which is about 90 kilometers overhead. The frequency with which the laser light is modulated or pulsed would be shifted slightly around this wavelength to stimulate a spin flip.

The spot itself would be too faint to see with the naked eye, but the brightness change could easily be measured by a small telescope.

All you need is a 20 to 50 watt laser !
Should be interesting to see what the regulators would have to say about amateurs running around with those on the 'backs of their trucks' !

Oh, well … at least its a baseline for the sort of laser you might need to do the laser guide star bit of it.

Cheers

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

All you need is a 20 to 50 watt laser !
Should be interesting to see what the regulators would have to say about amateurs running around with those on the 'backs of their trucks' !

Oh, well … at least its a baseline for the sort of laser you might need to do the laser guide star bit of it.

Cheers

All the airline pilots would be wearing eye patches

[mswhin63 (Malcolm)]

Most probably need a license to operate the scope.

[steve000 (Steve)]

Originally Posted by renormalised

All the airline pilots would be wearing eye patches

Eyepatches????? they gonna need new faces!

but yes legendary technology I loook foward to it becomming more main stream. imagine all major observatorys etc upgraded to AO tech.

[Barrykgerdes]

Originally Posted by mbaddah

I've been watching a few videos on how adaptive optics improves the images of telescopes, and WOW what a difference!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67jF2Ui0AdU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3JkjXco6m0

I was thinking could this possibly be the future of home premium-scopes? Does anyone have any information as to whether this is feasible or not? It would be great to have a theoretical 10/10 perfect seeing each night

SBG already has a primative form of AO for amateur telescope imagers. Some of the IIS imagers are using it.

Barry

[multiweb (Marc)]

Edmund Optics has deformable mirrors . Pretty dear still but the technology is available and will eventually become mainstream. I reckon in a decade or so anybody will be able to point and shoot out of the box.

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by multiweb

Edmund Optics has deformable mirrors . Pretty dear still but the technology is available and will eventually become mainstream. I reckon in a decade or so anybody will be able to point and shoot out of the box.

Wow. They're only tiny .. meant for microscopy/biomedical, but the 32 actuators deformable Mirror has an active diamater of 11mm, are and a focal length of 1.4 m (concave) .. all for a mere $US2,175. Not too bad. I would've thought they'd be heaps more expensive.

Yep I agree telescope mirrors won't be that far away … they would probably be easier to make than these gizmos, too !

Great stuff !

Cheers

[mbaddah (Mo)]

Originally Posted by michaellxv

The current size of premium home telescopes with a glass based would not be flexibile enough. So either the size of premium home telescopes must go up or a different base material is used which has the required ability to hold its shape and be flexible for the adaptive optics to work.

Good point Michael. Hopefully they do come up with a different base material to make it more feasible.

Originally Posted by CraigS

All you need is a 20 to 50 watt laser !
Cheers

lol that's perhaps enough to ruin everyones night vision on the observing field!

Originally Posted by multiweb

Edmund Optics has deformable mirrors . Pretty dear still but the technology is available and will eventually become mainstream. I reckon in a decade or so anybody will be able to point and shoot out of the box.

That's awesome!

[alistairsam]

Originally Posted by Barrykgerdes

SBG already has a primative form of AO for amateur telescope imagers. Some of the IIS imagers are using it.

Barry

Hi Barry,

I had a look at the SBIG AOG products, but that basically adjusts a tip/tilt mirror by very minute amounts upto 10 times a second to ensure that the guide star is centred on the chosen pixel. this primarily would correct mount periodic errors, wind deflections without adjusting RA directly.

but this is different from the AO on keck and LBT telescopes where the primary mirror and secondary mirror respectively are deformed to correct a distorted light wavefront so the final wavefront is in phase.

But I don't know how the laser AOG for the Keck works.

the AO on the LBT telescopes were the most impressive.

there was a TV program called Engineering connections with Richard hammond and how "Theremin" sensors were used on the LBT to align the mirror by extremely minute amounts so the hexagonal mirrors formed a perfect parabolic surface.

Love the video of the sun with and without adaptive optics.

[CraigS]

Yep .. looks like you need a theoretical minumum of 20W to create enough flux of flourescence in the sodium layer. Raman scattering amplification within an optical fibre, enables boosting of a 'seed' laser to get it up to higher powers. The downside of this approach is a loss of laser linewidth, which has to be less than 5Mhz at 589nm because of the 'hyperfine' structure of the sodium.

(Clearly, the minimum power of the laser actually needed, would also be related to the magnification and resolving power of the scope its attached to. The smaller the scope, the more power needed in the laser).

A good, relatively recent (Jun 1, 2010) article about it is here.

I notice it says ..

High-power guidestar lasers have big advantages, but it is not easy to create a reliable, easy-to-use, industrial-quality laser with an output of tens of watts at 589 nm. It is not impossible, though, as the two following articles illustrate. —John Wallace

Looks to me like this approach imposes minimum cost and power constraints, due to physics upon which it is based. As a result, I'd say that an alternative technological approach other than the laser guide star, would be needed, before it would be viable for consumers/amateurs. (My 2 cents worth).

Cheers

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

(Clearly, the minimum power of the laser actually needed, would also be related to the magnification and resolving power of the scope its attached to. The smaller the scope, the more power needed in the laser).


Cheers

Yep...Keck (10m) = 20W laser. Meade 8" ACF = 20GW...therefore instead of blinded airline pilot, vapourised plane!!!