late trading (all night) in Pubs and Clubs ... why is it actually necessary ?

[Ian Robinson]

I've seen the disorderly conduct of people in the Newcastle Foreshore district most nights in summer (especially when fishing there overnight from the shore .... I admit to being scared by the behaviour I've seen at close quarters on a very regular occurrence (I keep a sharp fishing knife on my rod belt (is a big one in belt hung scabbard) and a small crow bar handy (it's my fish donger) and my mobile phone handy .... I have had to defend myself more than once when confronted while minding my own business and not interacting or interferring with these people , a glance at my hand on the hilt of my knife usually is enough to deter , but not always , the hooning is bad enough , but the agressive behaviour is often extreme , and not a sign of the cops when they are needed.

I think pubs and clubs selling grog and hard liquor after 1am is a very bad idea. So is all night trading ....

If patrons from a club or pub regularly get involved in violent antisocial and criminal behaviour , the club or pub who sold them the booze and hard liquor should be held directly responsible (they continued selling and encouraging the behaviour) , and closed down .

[mswhin63 (Malcolm)]

Originally Posted by Ian Robinson

I've seen the disorderly conduct of people in the Newcastle Foreshore district most nights in summer , the hooning is bad enough , but the agressive behaviour is often extreme , and not a sign of the cops when they are needed.

I think pubs and clubs selling grog and hard liquor after 1am is a very bad idea. So is all night trading ....

If patrons from a club or pub regularly get involved in violent antisocial and criminal behaviour , the club or pub who sold them the booze and hard liquor should be held directly responsible (they continued selling and encouraging the behaviour) , and closed down .

Have the same issues in Perth (Northbridge actually), I agree although I think someone sued a pub for excessive alc supply but not totally sure. Now the Govt is trying to patch up al-be-it a bit late.

[casstony]

I don't understand why the Gov't doesn't make the nightclubs resposible for controlling the alcohol related violence - tell them to control the violence or they get shut down.

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Ooooh sounds a bit controversial for general chat..where's the gestapo..??

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Why is there a need to have them open to all hours? Personally, there's no need for pubs to be open after 9pm. Same with clubs. And close the alcohol shops by 8pm. As opening times for clubs/pubs/alcohol shops has widened over the past 30 years, violence has increased. We never had the violence issue to the same degree in the 60s as we do today.

For those that scream against this and say that people should be entitled to get drunk and act like violent idiots, I say let them do it at home, rather than in the public. The youth of today expect that they can do what they want, where they want, and how they want, without little or no respect for anyone else. It's about time that they were taught that they cannot do so.

Dave

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

Ooooh sounds a bit controversial for general chat..where's the gestapo..??

Hiding around the corner lol Mike!

Dave

[mithrandir (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by dpastern

Why is there a need to have them open to all hours? Personally, there's no need for pubs to be open after 9pm.

I'm sure shift workers would have a different opinion. It's more the responsible service provisions that don't get enforced by the venues, and by the police not prosecuting venues for breaking them.

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

What a load of baloney. Shift workers existed in the 60s, pray do tell how they survived back then? The real reason is greed. Alcohol sales = tax. Governments like tax. Governments want their cake and want to eat it as well - tax from over excessive alcohol abuse, but they don't want to spend the money fixing the problems that are caused as a result.

I'm not being anachronistic here - I'm absolutely positive that you'll find a direct correlation between crime and pub/club opening times. Substance abuse is a MAJOR issue in today's society. The effects of alcohol abuse will be felt later on down the track, and medical expenses are going to be pretty damn high in 30-40 years I suspect.

Dave

[casstony]

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

Ooooh sounds a bit controversial for general chat..where's the gestapo..??

Your flippant comment indicates you are not aware of the extent of the problem. There are groups of thugs, ranging from teenagers to middle age, roaming the streets looking for victims - they get the victim on the ground, put the boot in and crack ribs and skulls. I am aware of this through professional sources and via street-fighting friends (my friends tend to find themselves in places where they run into the thugs - the thugs initiate the violence not realising who they've picked on). Cases are also frequently reported in the media. Obviously the these bullies are looking for trouble anyway but the nightclub environment contributes to the violent behaviour.

How's a weedy amatuer astronomer like myself supposed to feel safe at night in this environment?

[mac (Matt)]

We just need to get a posse together and send these criminals off to a far off country. Oh... that's already been done...

[mick pinner]

l agree 100% with David, our governments hipocracy when it comes to alcohol is remarkable. it has when abused the greatest effect on social behavior we have ever seen and is only getting worse but because it can be taxed so readily it is allowed to continue. people, especially the young are addicted to alcohol in greater numbers than society wishes to admit and l thought this was the reason we still outlaw drugs, because they are addictive. l guess longer trading hours = more tax and that is the bottom line.

[Esseth (Alan)]

Originally Posted by dpastern

The real reason is greed. Alcohol sales = tax. Governments like tax. Governments want their cake and want to eat it as well - tax from over excessive alcohol abuse, but they don't want to spend the money fixing the problems that are caused as a result.

I'm absolutely positive that you'll find a direct correlation between crime and pub/club opening times.

Just to play devils advocate as i used to go out on the town until 3-4 in the morning and me and my mates never got violent or started smashing things or abusing people. and i am not saying that there isnt a problem, i just think its not as simple as "close earlier".

People often complain when the government does anything for tax, but they also complain when healthcare/schools or public transport doesn’t get enough money...

Also just because there is a correlation, doesn’t mean its a complete causational effect. For example I’m sure there is a correlation between pub violence and cars on the road; it doesn’t mean that because there are more cars that people are more violent. However it seems likely that there is a relationship but you can't just say it’s the direct and only cause.

[Allan_L (Allan)]

Prohibition does Not work.
Its been tried - remember the consequences?

Governments and TAXES !!! ...... Hmmm!
If the community wants to erradicate something, the government answer always seems to be to tax it.
Tobacco.
Alcohol
Carbon Emmissions
So, even if it doesn't work, they get richer - Win / WIN situation.
Politically smart.
Effective - hardly!

TAX something and then allow longer trading hours! What hiprocrasy!

Newcastle is becoming a magnet for trouble makers. My own son was bashed and suffered brain damage just last year.

But they go to Newcastle because Central Coast venues dried up.

So the problem doesn't get solved, it only moves location.
If Newcastle closes, they will all go to Sydney.

I wish I knew the answer.

[casstony]

Originally Posted by Allan_L

I wish I knew the answer.

Ban all alcohol advertising; close nightclubs if they cannot/will not control the violence assocoated with their establishment.

[TrevorW]

The extent of damage to society caused through alcohol excess, abuse is often neglected in light of the damage caused by tobacco smoking

I've never seen a smoker get violent and bash someone after consuming 20 cigarettes in a day.

I've never seen a smoker smash someone in the face with an empty cigarette packet

I've never seen a smoker loose control of a car and kill someone you may love

yet they put warnings on cigarette packets, restrict where you can smoke etc etc

No tell me why we need pubs and club open all hours of the day,,,I don't think so

[Barrykgerdes]

I grew up in an era where most shops traded 5 and 1/2 days a week. Many small businesses traded late where allowed, mainly food and other meals along with dairy where the cows could not be governed by shopping hours.

Hotels for a period had severely limited hours by law (This did not stop drunken and loutish behavior). We survived well because we organised our requirements much better and had much less money to throw around.

Today's permissive society has removed the restrictions on the need to organise ones life thus leaving more free time and mechanisation has shortened working hours with more money. This results in large numbers of the population with nothing else to do except cavort around "night life".

Changing opening hours for "night spots" is not going to change these people's behavior. Theoretically the law establishments should be able to control the bad behavior but when examined most of the loutish behavior is techically not breaking the law any longer since the summary offences act was changed some time ago.

Prohibition actually had the opposite effect of its design when introduced in America in the early part of the last century.

Barry

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by casstony

Your flippant comment indicates you are not aware of the extent of the problem. There are groups of thugs, ranging from teenagers to middle age, roaming the streets looking for victims - they get the victim on the ground, put the boot in and crack ribs and skulls. I am aware of this through professional sources and via street-fighting friends (my friends tend to find themselves in places where they run into the thugs - the thugs initiate the violence not realising who they've picked on). Cases are also frequently reported in the media. Obviously the these bullies are looking for trouble anyway but the nightclub environment contributes to the violent behaviour.

How's a weedy amatuer astronomer like myself supposed to feel safe at night in this environment?

It's pretty bad when you are sitting on the foreshore on a camp chair on nice still and balmy summer's night watching the water and your rod , and maybe listening to the car radio , at 3am or there abouts, while fishing for jewie, when you suddening find yourself confronted by (and surrounded by a group of agressive boozes up (and probably drugged up) louds who have decided you look like a good target for some "fun" and they start abusing you verbally for no reason, interferring with your gear, getting too close for comfort to your unlocked car, and start the shoving and start to physically assault you even though you've had nothing to do with them , or interferred with them in any way , and were minding your own business.
I was punched in the head by one of the brave lads one night a few years ago hard enough to knock my mining lamp off my head , and the only thing the saved me was that I pulled my knife and showed I was ready to use it and a couple of other fishos who were fishing nearby came to my aid , these heroes backed out pretty quickly when there were 3 of us ..

We called the cops and they took their sweet time coming and never found my assailants.

These guys were all in their late teens or early 20s, and they were not a gang of angry islanders , ethnics or aboriginals .
And they were out looking to create trouble and find victims , and obviously a middle aged man by himself (a short fat one is even better) in a poorly lit location who is by himself was too good an potential target to pass up .... I have no delusions about what my fate would have been had I not been prepared to (do anything needed including use a weapon and potentially deadly force) to defend myself or if those other fishos who saw and heard everything hadn't come to my aid.... I don't think I'd have been sitting here now typing this now .... I think they'd've punched and kicked me to pulp (and would have probably picked up a handy boulder and dropped it on my head to finish me off) and they'd've robbed me too (thiugh they've found the contents of my wollet and car , very slim , as I don't carry more than $10 on me when I go fishing .... just enough to buy a big of coke and some nibblylies maybe).

Since then , I have always kept weapons handy when I go fishing on Nobbys Wall , or the Newcastle side of the foreshore , at night for jewfish , and if the other fishos nearby get to under 2 or 3 (within shouting distance / sight) of me go , I will too unless I'm getting runs , or there are not many "hoons" and boozers about.
I will not fish the Newcastle side of the foreshore on Friday, Saturday and Wednesday nights , as these are the most dangerous nights in Newcastle.

I am not objecting to people going out at night and drinking (even getting drunk) and having what they think is a good night with their mates or partners , the vast majority can do this and unless they drive , they have no effect on , or harm anyone (except themselve's).

However these all night and late night venues are concentrated , and act as magnets for thugs , troublemakers , and the idiot brigade , and show no sight of limiting sales or any interest in changing the situation , and aren't happy unless the patrons are packed in like sardines and the drugs, booze and liquor are flowing like water.

[Matt Wastell (Matt)]

Interesting thread.

I drink and occasionally smoke - we all know the dangers for ones helalth.

If any new product caused the same problems as alcahol and cigarettes it would immediately be removed from sale and the manufacturers sued up to the eye balls.

I believe both alcahol and cigarettes (first) will be banned - for governments to make so much money from such products will end in a huge compensation claim - they are actively involved and must take some responsibility.

I reackon in about 5 years cigarettes will be gone!

[Octane (Humayun)]

Tony,

Mike's comment was with regards to his refugee thread being locked.

Regards,
Humayun

Originally Posted by casstony

Your flippant comment indicates you are not aware of the extent of the problem.

[Baddad (Marty)]

Hi Ian,

That story of yours saddens me. I feel rather angry about the hooliganism as well.
I grew up in an era when pubs closed at 6PM. It was safe to go fishing all night off the jetties or shore. Violent attacks were rare. In fact almost never.

Along came 10 PM closing and police began patrolling the pubs to catch drunk drivers. This was seen as an intrusion of privacy.

Lo and behold, the lowering of the drinking age to 18. Mainly from the pressure of National Servicemen were 19 or 20 yrs old. To fight for the Country but too young to drink alcohollic beverages.

Further, to top up tax coffers, all night licencing or almost all night.

Experiencing those events I observed in parrallel the violent drunked incidents increased. The pubs do have a responsibility for patron and public safety. They only offer a token effort.

Signs, that read "No sevice to drunks or underage" or that effect. IMO that is not an effort at all. A drunks money is worth just as much as a sober source. possibly more.

How do we go back to the good old days? Slowly, slowly, catchee monkey.

A gradual change in a number of steps. First the politicians need to be honest.... er.. Damn I believe we're lost. Find another fishing spot. We may be stuck with it for a while.

Cheers Marty