A case for eather.

xelasnave · #1 13-11-2008, 01:00 PM

We all know the M M experiement put to rest the eather issue...
But when we have a recognision that the Universe is made up of so much unseen matter (dark matter) and an aparently repulsive force (dark energy) and given the flow of particles and energy does this not suggest the word may have had its uses...for to a degree an environment exists with lots of stuff flying about.. the premise of the eather concept....

AND when we look at the gravity B probe mission they look for effectively a bend in the space time grid evidencing that space is effectively being dragged by mass..in this case the Earth.. and that seems more than reasonable ..now this must mean that in effect the grid line would represent the path light would take through space... so does the gravity b probe mission really do what the MM experiement could not do... whatever one calls it...space, space time or the eather ....is responding as it was expected the MM experiement looked for...if you see what I mean

... and I suspect light path will follow the grid line demonstrating the effect sought in the MM experiemnt

alex

Kal (Andrew) · #2 13-11-2008, 05:00 PM

I've watched 'Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas' several times and I'm staying well clear of ether!

Zuts · #3 13-11-2008, 05:25 PM

Hi,

The aether is a tired, dead and buried concept and i am surprised you even bother to mention it. The aether was proposed as a medium through which light propogates.

There is no such thing as nothing as these days some people believe that all of space is filled by the Higgs field. This field via Higgs particles is supposed to be responsible for imparting mass to all elementary particles except for light.

The Higgs field is consistant with Special Relativity as

(1) It has no observable effect on things moving at a constant velocity (except to impart mass) and so unlike the concept of aether does not give any particular observer a priveleged viewpoint, i.e at rest with respect to the aether.

If something is effecting the Voyager spacecraft then whatever it is is not the aether.

Cheers
Paul

xelasnave · #4 13-11-2008, 06:10 PM

Thanks for the input Paul..It is a tired concept but as I say when one thinks of the stuff in empty space one wonders... leaving the aspect of it being a "medium" for light..I mean as a general thing it is much like the old Greeks speculated..in some respects.
Thanks for the Higgs field input you have doubled my understanding of it.
It had a name and folk were looking for it..that was all I knew.

alex

xelasnave · #5 13-11-2008, 06:34 PM

I dont think the Gravity B probe mission has anything to do with the Voyager it is to establish frame dragging

...

I predicted that any space craft, that left the Helioshere, (the outter most boundary of our Solar System where the Solar winds runs into "space")would appear slow... and later still will appear to stop and then appear to rush away at 350 mls per second... I cant give you a time frame ...but they will slow... they will appear to stop and they will appear to restart and rush away at 350 mls per second... I think the ones out there are starting to slow I have not checked for a while but that was the way of it last time I looked... anywyas it is another matter of interest because they are not doing what was expected I think.

Forgive me I have been alone for a week now

only two dogs to talk to

They will do what I suggest because space pushes...so I believe with no scientific basis other than the glipse of the prospect of dark energy apparently being a repulsive force..which I interprete and hope will be found to be evidence that gravity acts as a pushing force...

alex

alex

Bassnut (Fred) · #6 13-11-2008, 06:35 PM

Squse my ignorance. If there is an eather, would it have been created with the BB?, if so, then it would expand at the same rate as the physical universe (near C)? , or would it have to be there for the BB to expand into?. Although the Higgs field seems to impart mass, would its effect propogate at C ie The Higgs field itself doesnt have mass and travels at C?

xelasnave · #7 13-11-2008, 06:49 PM

I think the flow of stuff one can contemplate fits the original description as it were... and add in background radiation one gets the impression the old Greeks may have had in mind..

Going with the big bang it created everything, energy matter and most of all space itself even time..... so that answers that.

If there was any eather at the first moment it would have come from the Universe next door...certainly not ours.

So if its here now one can safely say it was not here before the starting point of the big bang...

Are you asking if the Higgs Bosen has mass? I dont know but things with small mass may be able to travel at close to C.. I recall something about nuetrinos having mass but approaching c...

alex

rally · #8 13-11-2008, 08:48 PM

Alex,

As I recall the Michelson Morley experiment was to prove/disprove the postulated existence of an ether wind - a medium that was actually travelling in a particular direction.

It failed to prove the existence of an ether 'wind' traveling in a particular direction.
I am not sure their experiment proved there was NOT an ether.

Karls48 (Karl) · #9 13-11-2008, 11:16 PM

Alex, I don’t know why do you bother. People need to believe in something definitive and solid. Before it was religion, now it is the science. Your stirring will not get any constructive response, except the reference to current physic textbooks. You are challenging dogmas and consider yourself lucky that you are living in these liberal times, five hundred years ago you would be executed. Don’t you know that science is always right? Just have look on history. Or consider how science of economics and mathematics stuffed up world’s economy

xelasnave · #10 14-11-2008, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rally

Alex,

As I recall the Michelson Morley experiment was to prove/disprove the postulated existence of an ether wind - a medium that was actually travelling in a particular direction.

It failed to prove the existence of an ether 'wind' traveling in a particular direction.
I am not sure their experiment proved there was NOT an ether.

I think it was taken as proving no eather.

alex

xelasnave · #11 14-11-2008, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karls48

Alex, I don’t know why do you bother. People need to believe in something definitive and solid. Before it was religion, now it is the science. Your stirring will not get any constructive response, except the reference to current physic textbooks. You are challenging dogmas and consider yourself lucky that you are living in these liberal times, five hundred years ago you would be executed. Don’t you know that science is always right? Just have look on history. Or consider how science of economics and mathematics stuffed up world’s economy

I dont know what to say Karl

.

I can not entertain any establishement would have anything to fear from my ramblings... now I had not considered the aspect of how mathematics or rather the justification it must have lent to various proposals may have caused problems... but I doubt if there is any evil in the maths but in the humans who may have enlisted it for evil purpose... maths would have demonstrated small margins as large amounts and large amounts would lure the greedy....
Science evolves that is the wonderful thing about it and its truths can never be silienced... or at least an idealist would like to think such is so.

I guess I see something in the gravity B probe mission somewhat parrallel to the MM experiment...

alex

alex

sjastro · #12 14-11-2008, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karls48

Alex, I don’t know why do you bother. People need to believe in something definitive and solid. Before it was religion, now it is the science. Your stirring will not get any constructive response, except the reference to current physic textbooks. You are challenging dogmas and consider yourself lucky that you are living in these liberal times, five hundred years ago you would be executed. Don’t you know that science is always right? Just have look on history. Or consider how science of economics and mathematics stuffed up world’s economy

Karl,

You obviously have a hang up about science which is a common thread in many of your posts.

Science is not a dogma or a religion, and the Ether theory is a case in point.

Ether theory was in mainstream science from the mid 19th to early 20th century. The fact that it has disappeared from textbooks contradicts your viewpoint that "science is always right".

Science is always evolving which is a direct consequence of the scientific method. In a nutshell, make an observation, set up a hypothesis to explain the observation and extrapolate the hypothesis to make predictions. If new observations do not support the predictions then you either throw the hypothesis out or revise it.

How does dogma and religion fit in with this setup?

On a final note I would like you to explain how the "science of economics and mathematics stuffed up the world's economy."

Steven

Alchemy (Clive) · #13 14-11-2008, 01:17 PM

hmmm , dont mind either way , i can only say .... what is, was, and always will be , we dont have to understand it to appreciate it. Dark matter dark energy etc , i think its nice to have a few mysteries in life.

xelasnave · #14 14-11-2008, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alchemy

hmmm , dont mind either way , i can only say .... what is, was, and always will be , we dont have to understand it to appreciate it. Dark matter dark energy etc , i think its nice to have a few mysteries in life.

Yes mystery is good otherwise enquiring minds would have nothing to enquire into.
alex