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Old 21-11-2010, 04:42 PM
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Camera pixel count - colour & mono

Hi All,

I have been considering purchasing a cooled astro camera for a while.

As part of researching various makes & models, I have been wondering why related mono and colour astro cameras typically list the same number of pixels. eg:
https://www.bintelshop.com.au/Product.aspx?ID=8537
https://www.bintelshop.com.au/Product.aspx?ID=8538

I have read that colour cameras typically incorporate a "bayer matrix" over the sensor filtering each 4 physical sensor pixels into primary colours (1 x red, 2 x green, 1 blue), combining into 1 colour pixel in the final image.

If that is the case, then shouldn't a mono camera image have 4 times as many pixels as a related colour camera (eg. Orion Parsec 8300M, versus Orion Parsec 8300C)? Or are the actual camera sensors completely different?

Can anyone advise?
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Old 21-11-2010, 04:56 PM
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dannat (Daniel)
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jeff - i have pondered the same thing - my understanding was they occupy the same area of chip - eg 1000x1000 pixels & use the same chips- which gives the same area of real estate - which is then devoted to one color in the mono & 3 colors in the colour camera - same pixel count but the mono camera is more sensitive - its signal is not divided amongst the diff colors
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Old 21-11-2010, 05:17 PM
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tlgerdes (Trevor)
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Each Chip has the same amount of Pixels and the final picture also has the same amount of pixels.

In a One Shot Colour (OSC) you are correct in the RGGB arrangement of coloured pixels. What happens though is that they mathematically add the surrounding colours into each pixel to create a composite pixel (Bayer Matrix). So a red pixel will have the values of the surrounding green and blue pixels to it, to create an RGB pixel, likewise a blue pixel with have the surrounding green and red pixel colours added to it to create its RGB pixel.

This is a rudimentary explaination and am happy to have anyone add more detail or corrrections.
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Old 21-11-2010, 10:42 PM
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Ah ... I think I'm starting to understand. So the sensor is the same in both cases, including the combination of 4 "well values" which constitute a given RGB pixel. The key difference is that (without the filtering effect of the bayer matrix) each of the 4 values are practically identical ... therefore a balanced monochrome RGB pixel results.

Thanks - this general explanation does make sense to me.

Are there then some other factors which lead to higher quality images captured using mono cameras (in conjunction with LRGB filters)?

The image detail often seems to be so much better, especially those showing fine details of dust and dark nebulae. The best planetary images (eg. Jupiter) even seem to be captured using mono cameras with RGB filters.

There seems to be additional expense with mono cameras and expensive filters/filter-wheels, and extra processing effort required due to the multiple channels of data. But I do not understand why the results achievable are so much better. Is there a simple explanation ... or maybe a website which explains?
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Old 22-11-2010, 12:40 AM
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With a mono camera and filters you get the actual R, G and B value for every pixel position. With a one shot colour camera you get just one of R, G or B for every pixel position and then the missing values are interpolated from neighbouring pixels. Interpolation is basically a best guess. It will give you something that looks OK, but it won't be as good as the result of the mono process. It can't be... two thirds of the data is being "thrown away."
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Old 22-11-2010, 10:58 AM
The_Cat (Jeremy)
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[QUOTE= ... It will give you something that looks OK, but it won't be as good as the result of the mono process. It can't be... two thirds of the data is being "thrown away."[/QUOTE]

Have a look at :

http://astrophotography.aa6g.org/

Taken with a (now) $(us)1300.00 Starshoot pro. Amazing what a cheap camera and the right skills do !!
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Old 22-11-2010, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickS View Post
. It can't be... two thirds of the data is being "thrown away."
The data doesnt actually get thrown away, you are mathematically recreating data that wasnt there.

For each physical pixel you create
R + (Surrounding GGB) = Composite coloured pixel
G + (Surrounding RGB) = Composite coloured pixel
B + (Surrounding GGR) = Composite coloured pixel
G + (Surrounding RGB) = Composite coloured pixel

from the surrounding pixels, basically you are binning 2x2.

From Wikipedia:
Bryce Bayer's patent (U.S. Patent No. 3,971,065) in 1976 called the green photosensors luminance-sensitive elements and the red and blue ones chrominance-sensitive elements. He used twice as many green elements as red or blue to mimic the physiology of the human eye. The retina has more rod cells than cone cells and rod cells are most sensitive to green light. These elements are referred to as sensor elements, sensels, pixel sensors, or simply pixels; sample values sensed by them, after interpolation, become image pixels.
The raw output of Bayer-filter cameras is referred to as a Bayer pattern image. Since each pixel is filtered to record only one of three colors, the data from each pixel cannot fully determine color on its own. To obtain a full-color image, various demosaicing algorithms can be used to interpolate a set of complete red, green, and blue values for each point.
Different algorithms requiring various amounts of computing power result in varying-quality final images. This can be done in-camera, producing a JPEG or TIFF image, or outside the camera using the raw data directly from the sensor.
The only time you throw data away is if you are doing narrow band imaging with an OSC. Typically HA imaging, in this case you are only using the red filtered pixels, hence throwing away all Green and Blue pixels.
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Old 22-11-2010, 11:17 PM
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Trevor/Rick/Daniel - thanks for the explanations. I did some follow-up Internet searches based on your info, which confirm that you were all pointing me in the right direction.

Thanks again!

After sniffing through Wikipedia on "Color Filter Array" and "Demosaicing" (another great US extension to the English language), I did a few Google searches and stumbled on a few articles by Craig Stark (of PHD and Nebulosity fame).

Attached below is one of Craig's articles from September 2006 titled "Debayering Demystified" which reinforces your comments and explains further.

Jeremy - yep, the Starshoot Pro pics at that website look fantastic. A great example of what can be revealed using an affordable OSC camera combined with a great location and good processing.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Debayering Demystified (Craig Stark).pdf (458.8 KB, 109 views)
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Old 23-11-2010, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
which confirm that you were all pointing me in the right direction.
What........ what....... you doubted us?
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