Fish Tank, Scrap Heap, or otherwise?

[Soldant]

I've returned from my lurker state to ask for some advice.

For those who don't remember me (I'm not very memorable even when I'm exciting) take a look at my previous problem from this old thread:
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...4&page=1&pp=20

For those too tired to click, it's about a problem with an Optisan 6" newt reflector, on a terrible (and I mean TERRIBLE, a cardboard tripod would do better) EQ mount. It's a chilling tale of a gift gone wrong, with a conman working at a camera store lying through his teeth to an unsuspecting parent, who meant well but unfortunately didn't do any research before buying. It's quite a good read (not really, but I'm trying to be entertaining).

The story (I never finished it) ends like this: The guy said he'd look at the telescope for me, saying his wife has the same one, as well as constantly saying "Ah but they're a great scope..." again and again. He also made the statement that all mirrors are made "by the one company, doesn't matter if they go to Optisan, Tasco or Meade, hahaha!" among other idiotic claims like the brilliant Optisan website. I wouldn't know about the last one, the entire thing is in Polish. So I left it with them and went home, wondering which hammer would be best to use against the junk.

About three weeks later I called them up to find out what they were doing, since nobody had said anything about it. A rather shocked sales assistant said "Uh... oh, well, give me your details and I'll get him to get back to you. It's okay though, he's looking at it!". Over in the corner, covered by a cloth, in the same corner that the telescope had initially been dropped off in, was an interestingly shaped object that bore a striking resemblence to a tube and tripod. I nodded and walked away.

A few days later I came back at the request of the guy. In the corner was the telescope. It looked exactly as I had left it many weeks ago, though maybe my eyes were playing tricks on me. I'm guessing not though, after what he said next. Apparently he'd got onto Optisan (they speak English? Wow! Learn something new every day!) who had said that you wern't supposed to align any of the mirrors, they had to be as tight as humanly possible, and once any of the mirrors were touched, it was gone. Contrary to his word that he'd try to align it, he meerly said that there was nothing he could do (offering no account of his attempts to fix it, instead giving the distinct impression that he wasn't going to even bother with it). Then I heard the "Ah but it's a great scope!" speel again. Resisting the urge to do violence to a display of cameras (the telescopes he had for sale were interestingly enough nowhere to be found now) I decided to take it home and throw it into a brick wall.

Since then I've tried many suggestions from this forum and other sites (this forum actually being the most helpful) to attempt to get the problem solved. After fighting it for weeks and my Dad attempting to use metho to clean the mirror (which has now given it a coppery tinge, an interesting effect but totally useless) I've finally decided to totally give up on the telescope and do something with it. Right now it's taking up valueable space sitting on its terrible mount. It didn't even last 12 months (lasted 5 actually). Yes, a $600 telescope, which is also differently branded and sold on eBay for $150, now sitting there doing nothing. (Again I found this out from looking at this forum, what were the odds!)

So my question is, what do I do with it? Should I just throw it in the bin and never look at it again? Should I do something creative like turn it into a fish tank, and watch the little fish swim around watching themselves in the mirror? Or is there something else I could do, like turn it into a laser beam capable of destroying the shop in question or something equally evil? Perhaps something still more realistic like mount it on a wall and let the cat admire itself every morning...

In any event, if there's any inventive or creative ideas for this telescope, I'd be happy to do it, since it's heading for a dump not far up the street from me if I can't find anything to do with it. Also this hasn't turned me off astronomy at all, though it certainly frustrated me. Fortunately my 10x50 binoculars, still the best optical tool I've ever owned, keeps me more than occupied at this time of year. Though I will be shopping for another telescope soon, since my arms are getting tired holding those binoculars up all night. Though this time I might get a refractor (but that's an issue for another thread).

So, any suggestions? I'll even post pictures of your ideas, if I remember.

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Can you summarise the problem/question for the lazy members?

[rumples riot]

I suggest, that you go down to the shop in question; take the scope with you and tell him that you want your money back. Mention the Trade Practices Act and say that it is not of merchantible quality. That means you should get your money back. Tell him that if he does not return the money you will report him to consumer affairs dept. This usually does the trick, however if he does not help then you must report him. Consumer affairs takes a dim view of people like this. I am sure that with a little mucking around you will get your money back and put it to good use with a new scope.

[Soldant]

Haha, you actually posted in the thread back when it was active

The short of it is that it was one of these. Just a different branding, a $600 price tag (or $700, can't remember too clearly now), and a salesman well versed in speechcraft.

Furthermore, there is one of these in the focuser, which means it's a spherical mirror. From the thread:

Spherically shaped lenses and mirrors share a problem: their shape. Parallel light rays that bounce off the central region of a spherical mirror focus farther away than light rays that bounce off the edges. This results in many focal points, which produce a blurry image. To get a clear image, all rays need to focus at the same point.

Apparently that'd be fine if everything worked as intended. The problem is that it doesn't. Further quote (from you actually):

The issue is not that there is a barlow in the focuser, but whether it works. If it was a good mirror with a good barlow lens, then it would be a good scope! But the reason a built-in barlow rings alarm bells for me is that it does not give the user the option whether to use a barlow or not. It says to me: this mirror is so bad that you don't want to see how it performs at its native focal length.

Terrible optics + terrible mount = utter rubbish. I even pulled it apart to see what everything looked like (just for fun), and found it to be of terrible construction. The tube was bent out of shape and had rough edges that hadn't been filed down. Sitcky tape (STICKY TAPE?) the common garden variety sticky tape, was used to apparently try to protect the underside of the mirror from hitting metal edges. Under the tape were four tiny, thin, totally useless pieces of foam. The mirror showed a few imperfections, namely chips here and there and a few scratches, that you can only see if you pull it apart and play with it for a bit. The spider clamp for the secondry (which also indicently has a chip, but a rather obvious one) is thick, bulky, and happily bends the tube further, and features sharp edges all too happy to slice open all manner of fleshy objects that venture too close to it. Not to mention the fact that the focuser juts so far into the tube it's a wonder that they didn't just let it touch the secondry mirror, just for kicks.

The mount though is truly from the deepest, darket region of a chineese sweatshop. It grinds, grates and generally happily makes itself heavy, with terrible legs that can't sufficiently hold the weight of the scope. But the controls! Downright TERRIBLE! All attempts to secure the scope result in a little game. The game is to see how long you can go without the locking screws totally failing and sending the scope towards the sky, like it's looking up waiting for a lightning bolt. The controls have terrible slack that lets the scope freely glide without any restraint, all under its own power and the forces of gravity. Actually the pieces themselves look like they're threatening to go on strike and simply fall off the mount. Tighten them up so that it looks like they fit together (almost like it was INTENDED to be that way) and they seize up, refusing to work until you take them back to their original, "Watch me I'm gonna fall!" state.

In all, one of the worst things to wander out of... wherever it came from.

EDIT:

I suggest, that you go down to the shop in question; take the scope with you and tell him that you want your money back. Mention the Trade Practices Act and say that it is not of merchantible quality. That means you should get your money back. Tell him that if he does not return the money you will report him to consumer affairs dept. This usually does the trick, however if he does not help then you must report him. Consumer affairs takes a dim view of people like this. I am sure that with a little mucking around you will get your money back and put it to good use with a new scope.

Do I actually have a basis for this complaint though? I don't have nor remember the original advertisement, which means he could have made no false claims about it at all and therefore delivered a product that did exactly as it said it would: allow you to look at the planets and various DSOs. They just never mentioned that looking through a coke bottle filled with water while dancing around to techno music would probably serve you better. Since he doesn't sell the telescopes anymore (and doesn't advertise them... how interesting) I can't find that out either. Even if I did threaten him I doubt he'd do anything, just say "Okay I'll call Optisan and ask them!" while the scope sat in the shop. If I did take it further I doubt I'd win.

[asimov (John)]

Hi Soldant!

I remember you & your bad luck with this scope. Not sure what advise to give to you on what to do with it now though. I'm with rumples in one way, but I'm also thinking ( like you) you may get nowhere with it at the same time. Pity. I'd be willing to do the "I'm reporting you to consumer affairs unless I get some sort of action NOW!" speal...Can't hurt!?

Best of luck with whatever you do. And don't be a lurker!

[johnno]

Hi Soldant,
I believe the advice given here is spot on.
I also would do SOMETHING about it,
If the salesman is even half genuine,he should see you have been sold a lemon.and do what he can to help,failing that obligation,he then imho,becomes a rogue.
I feel that by doing Nothing,you are also leaving other unsuspecting buyers to the same fate.
Lord help the unscrupulous salesman that did this to me,
He would remember me for the rest of his days.The whole 5'2" of me.
I hope you do get some satisfaction.
Regards.
John

[ballaratdragons (Ken)]

Soldant, have you ever considered being a writer! Seriously. You have a natural talent for getting a story across. And even though it is a serious problem you throw enough humour in there to make it a much more enjoyable read.

If you have a talent, use it. Write a small book just to see! I will read it.

Oh, and good luck with whatever you decide with the scope.

[acropolite (Phil)]

I would take it back as Paul suggested, I wouldn't, under any circumstances, mention cleaning the mirror. As Paul said you have rights under consumer law, your biggest problem may be leaving it this long before acting.

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

- Take out the barlow and chuck it in the bin.
- Collimate the scope as best you can.
- Stick a long focal length eyepiece in it.
- Buy a 16'' Dob.
- Mount the 6'' short OTA on the back of the Dob and use it as a close-up finder.

PS. Mirror cleaning with metho does not sound like a good idea. Dirt on mirror is almost never a problem.

[norm]

Hi Soldant,

Some other options to try if they're not prepared to refund you the money is ask for an exchange of something else, even of lesser value (if thats possible)!. eg, binos maybe, or gift vouchers, free prints, etc. Even if you get only a 3rd of the value, its gotta be better than nothing. (aim high first and then work down).

In reality you shouldn't even have to do this, but unfortunately there are some seedy and unscrupolous people out there who wont play ball, regardless how many threats to Consumer Affairs, etc etc.

Alternatively if you decide not to go down the path of returning it, is it possible to savage the tripod and turn it into a bino tripod ?

Good luck either way.

btw:

Its good to know you haven't been deterred in astronomy by this experience.

[shredder]

Hi Soldant,While I too would like to recommend that you ask for your money back and threaten with consumer affairs etc etc I would suggest you are probably wasting your breath. In my experience shop keepers are willing to take the change that you wont do this and when I have tried Consumer Affairs aren't overly helpful. It turns out that while there are lots of regulations, they tend to be very specific and easy enough to get out of (ie too difficult to enforce). A small dealer who knows they sell crap will probably know this too. You might be able to offer a swap on something cheaper, such as bino's or a cheap camera as the seller will get you out of the shop, and get away with giving you something worth say $100 for what probably costs him $30 (ie its a cheap painless option for him).

As for what you can do with the scope, well not much. To fix it will cost more than its worth, you can get a 6" Dob for around $300 or so (2nd hand for probably $100-150), you are far better off buying one of these, enjoying it and forgetting about your first one. Your frustration will soon be forgotten with the views from your new scope etc etc..

If you do want something to do with the scope, I would suggest 1. Sell it on e-Bay (heaven forbid that I would recommend this but people do it, if you feel guilty sell it at a $1 no reserve and state that it has problems etc). 2. Use it for a camera / bino mount and ditch the scope. 3. and my personal favourite, bring it along to a local Star Party and burn it as a sacrifice to the Gods for clear skys.

Anyway all in all I would suggest moving on and forgetting about it.

Good luck.

Michael

[Soldant]

Thanks for the responses guys

3. and my personal favourite, bring it along to a local Star Party and burn it as a sacrifice to the Gods for clear skys.

Hey, I like fire. If I could share the magic with others, why not? Suggestion noted

If I really did push him for an exchange, there's probably not a lot of stuff in that store that I really want. Actually a lot of the stuff in there I haven't heard of (brand name wise), and I doubt he'd give me an overpriced digital camera for this piece of junk. This is of course asuming that I can even find him in the first place, he's rarely in his store (usually only there briefly about once a week or something). I'd sell it on eBay but I'd feel bad about it, what if some kid got it who was just getting into astronomy, but then got totally turned off because the scope is utter rubbish? I'd be a murderer! Or something similiar, whatever kills dreams.

Alternatively if you decide not to go down the path of returning it, is it possible to savage the tripod and turn it into a bino tripod ?

I considered this, and still am, though I think that the mount is probably not going to be that good for binoculars either. The fact that it's so poorly constructed would probably make life just as difficult, even though the field of view would be far wider. The controls have so much slack in them that it could almost pass for a speedy goto scope slewing across the sky... until you look at it and realse it's just beause I turned a knob which has nothing to do with the control at all, but for some reason allows the scope to slip.

- Take out the barlow and chuck it in the bin.
- Collimate the scope as best you can.
- Stick a long focal length eyepiece in it.
- Buy a 16'' Dob.
- Mount the 6'' short OTA on the back of the Dob and use it as a close-up finder.

Might be an idea actually. In any case it'd get rid of the bulky mount which I'm tripping over since I have nowhere to put it.

your biggest problem may be leaving it this long before acting.

This is what's keeping me from doing it actually. Though part of this has been due to the fact that the guy took so damn long to actually do anything about "fixing" the telescope in the first place. "Fixing" I'm pretty sure involved a call to Optisan on his lunch break, it doesn't look like the telescope was even touched at all. If I could prove this then perhaps I'd be able to strengthen a case against him, but I don't know how I'd do this.

Soldant, have you ever considered being a writer! Seriously.

Hehe, thanks! Seems like I was entertaining for at least one person

In any event I'm pretty sure I'll toss the mount, since it's easily the most infuriating part of the entire setup (now it trips me, and it's ALWAYS in my way... there's a conspiracy here) and I can throw the tube somewhere "secure" and it won't hurt me as much if it falls down and hits me (the mount meanwhile probably would). Just wondered if there was anything useful I could use the mirror for, but considering it's got a lovely copper tinge and quite a few scratches and things now (still shows my reflection in unflattering detail though) it's probably going to be more useful for knocking the salesman unconscious than anything else.

Thanks for the advice guys. I'll play with the mount and see if I can either break it or turn it into a bino mount. As for the scope-I'd turn it into a fish tank but unfortunately I realised it'd probably be difficult to feed them through the focuser... and I'd probably forget to feed them in the first place. But it would be cool.

And don't be a lurker!

I'll try not to . I've been busy with another forum at the moment which is threatening to die, which has occupied a lot of time. Though I've followed Iceman's posts on GA of all his pretty pictures and drop by here to see what's happening. I'll be posting again though for advice on a new telescope.

[shredder]

Actually you might find the tripod is better than you think, especially for binos. Take the head off it (that is the heavy bit with the slow motion controls and counterweight) leaving just the legs and the base plate (or equivalent) then work out a way of mounting the binos onto the base plate, usually done with a vertical tube / threadder rod etc, and a crossbar to mount the binos onto (will look a little like a stick figure with no head and three legs, and this sounds strange writng it I can't imagine what others think reading it). Then use the counterweight to offset the binos. All in all you are probably getting the most out of whats left. And you can still burn the head / tube to get clear weather...

Cheers

M

[Soldant]

I might try pulling it apart later today and see what I can come up with, though I think the entire thing is completely attached with no way to remove it. At least I'm sure the slow-mo controls and counterweight can be removed by themselves, but not the unit that they attach to. I have a picture of the scope somewhere, might post it later if I can find it.

[ving (David)]

I think the downfall of the fishtank idea would be that the OTA isnt waterproof... welcome back

[asimov (John)]

Some pics of this piece of junk would be nice, yes.

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Look for Geoff's (Starkler) post on how he turned his cheap EQ into a usable Alt-Az mount. (Basically you point the polar axis straight up)

The scope should still be useful, even if it's not a very good one. Maybe it's worth building a little Dob mount for it. That's what I did with my cheap 4.5" Newt and I got a lot more use out of it that way.

[Soldant]

Pictures of the junk in question are right here. These pictures sport a Dialup warning (i.e. they are large). Also my camera was playing up a bit at the time so the pictures aren't great.

The scope in poor lighting. Notice the "Optisan" on the side.
The scope in better lighting. Again, notice Optisan, and also the random objects placed haphazardly on the shelf. Special attention should be paid to the radio, which was at one point dropped and cracked open. The toaster oven just above the telescope also caught fire.
Close up on tube. In the window you can see my reflection.
Looking down the barrel of the tube. Totally useless information-wise, but it does look sort of cool. On the table you can see my hat and my red-tinted torch.

Few things to draw your attention to:
There doesn't seem to be a way to detach the tripod from the rest of the mount, without pulling the legs off it. The legs attach to the rest of it with no base plate for them. I suppose I could manufacture one...
The rest of the mount is one unit. When I first brought the telescope home, the mount was broken at the point where the black ring is seen in the 3rd picture. It had to be replaced. Bad omen?

[ving (David)]

woah! what a rocket launcher!!!

[shredder]

Had a quick look at the picks and it looks kind of like an old Celestron I had (my first scope) though from what you said a poor copy of it (as the Celestron worked fine). One possibility for removal....(though the pics dont give a lot of detail)

On the mount it looks like you have a small tightening lever, just above the top of the legs, and below the first joint in the mount (the lat adjustment joint), in the 2nd pic it is near a bright red dot. I suspect loosening this will free the whole head piece to move in the horisontal, if so it can be dismantled (maybe with a drill mind you). Assuming that this is the case, loosen this so it swings horisontally freely, then look for a locking nut holding the head to the top of the base (it will either be underneath, turn it all upside down and see) or possibly burried inside the joing of the lat adjustment joint (in which case you will need to dismantle the head to get to it). Once found remove the nut and remove the head, and go from there.... Oh and keep the finder, you never know when you want one.

Good luck.

M