Raspberry Pi as a VNC connected mount-controller

pmrid (Peter) · #1 02-01-2013, 11:35 AM

Brendan, this carries across from the previous thread - and I agree that a VNC connection back would be excellent. I was thinking about maybe using a small SSD instead of the SD card - the SD cards are fairly slow and if the Pi is running PHD or something similar, that could be a bottleneck.
Also, it probably doesn't really need a screen does it - perhaps for the setup and connection phase but thereafter it is all remote isn't it? Same with a mouse/keyboard. Could they be disabled or even disconnected once the connection is made? Or perhaps connected via a KMV swith or whatever they are called?
Peter

rmuhlack (Richard) · #2 02-01-2013, 01:03 PM

I've been looking into this sort of thing recently as well. I'm unsure if the raspberry pi has the requisite grunt for mount control, guiding and tethered image capture, so i've come across a few alternatives which although more expensive offer more hardware features and better performance:

Pandaboard
Beagleboard xm

It might even be possible to run OpenPHD and an indiserver on a 'rooted' android smartphone - that is another option i am looking into.

The challenge is (as you have already mentioned) that you have to use linux. Image capture and guiding is now incorporated into the latest version of Kstars, as is a GUI interface for indiserver (see here: http://indilib.org/). Dithering, and PEC are probably the main features that i think are still lacking from the existing linux software offerings.

Failing all this i might just give in and get a miniITX PC and install win7...

rmuhlack (Richard) · #3 02-01-2013, 01:04 PM

btw if you're running an INDI server you don't need VNC, as the INDI protocol is already designed to be run on either a local or remote host

wasyoungonce (Brendan) · #4 02-01-2013, 01:53 PM

Hi Peter, Richard.

Thanks for the info on INDI. Looks as if this could be really good project. Those other small control boards look good too. They have more std features than the Pi built in, like RS232 wireless...but they are more expensive (panda board costs$? U/k, BeagleBoard $200+. Not that the Pi cannot be added on to run RS232 or wireless..it's just these other boards have the hardware already onboard.

I noticed they also have a camera controller, the Pi does as well although I think it is for webcams. These camera controllers on the PandaBoard and Beagleboard looks like they will run DSLRs. I need to research this some more. Although you can run DSLRs thru USB.

To me the cost of the mini controller is not the major issue, its the features size and ability to run things like: PHD; DSLR control; focusers, and for many other...filter wheels etc.....ect.

All stuff this should be able to be controlled using VNC as long as the client can interpret the controller computer. Using as a VNC you shouldn't need to connect a monitor/keyboard to the controller, just connect and control it from another host computer.

The beauty of these small controllers is not so much that you can control over greater distances (which is a big plus) it's that you have the resources, in a small package, to run all your hardware devices. Thus you reduce all those annoying leads to and fro the OTA/mount. Even if your 3 metres away the ability to reduce leads is a big plus.
This is why I'm interested in these products.

So, What I'll do is sit down and look at the controllers. Looking to get one that has the ability to run the astro devices, one which will suit now and possibly the future and one that other Astro users will be using as well. No use re-inventing the wheel. Not sure on the ability of the Pi to have the bandwidth resources to run astro devices. I did read somewhere that it was hogged down when running PHD under linux.

This is probably why the Pi is attractive. there is a lot of interest in it and it appears to be building.

If anyone has any thoughts ...chime in I'd be interested in other peoples thoughts and experiences. I can do the hardware side of anything that needs controlling...it's just the software side that I'm at the weak end of the gene pool.

RickS (Rick) · #5 02-01-2013, 02:11 PM

I have been waiting for a mature open source USB over Ethernet implementation. I had a look at USB/IP a while back but it didn't look like it was ready to deal with unusual devices like CCD cameras.

Once the software is sorted there's no shortage of inexpensive hardware with host USB ports and WiFi or Ethernet that could be used at the scope end. I work for a company that makes devices like that

Cheers,
Rick.

chaffingbuttock (Matthew) · #6 02-01-2013, 02:37 PM

not that i know much about anything in this field, (astronomy or linux), but what about something like this:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BenQ-S6-2...item3cc8de8fdc

Apparently it's possible to upgrade the bios and get win XP on there (which should run alright on an atom 800mhz). Then could you run PHD etc?

whzzz28 (Nathan) · #7 02-01-2013, 03:13 PM

I'm not sure if Pi or any of the ARM based boards will have the required grunt to do this, nor will the software run (suppose it depends on what software you use)
I was looking into doing something like this as well. A tiny little box mounted onto the mount and then access it remotely.
The best i was able to come up with was a Fit-PC2, with a 1.6ghz atom and 2gb ram it should do everything (all be it a bit slow).
Sadly they are very exxy to buy in Australia. If you want to import one then they are cheaper.

http://www.yawarra.com.au/catalogue....pc2&s=fpc2-bus
http://www.yawarra.com.au/product.ph...ctCode=HW-FPC2

Given that it has 4x USB ports, it's almost a USB hub in itself.

Also if you want to go down a mini/nano itx route: http://www.mini-box.com.au/

whzzz28 (Nathan) · #8 02-01-2013, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickS

Once the software is sorted there's no shortage of inexpensive hardware with host USB ports and WiFi or Ethernet that could be used at the scope end. I work for a company that makes devices like that

Still yet to find a rugged, outdoor mini-itx case...
Maybe a suggestion for the development team

Plenty available for wifi installations (such as the wrap-box or mikrotik) but nothing to house a mini-itx.

RickS (Rick) · #9 02-01-2013, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whzzz28

Still yet to find a rugged, outdoor mini-itx case...
Maybe a suggestion for the development team

Plenty available for wifi installations (such as the wrap-box or mikrotik) but nothing to house a mini-itx.

The development team likes to point people to NEMA enclosures

Unless you're specializing in ruggedized gear, building it is a lot of hassle and expense for a limited gain.

wasyoungonce (Brendan) · #10 02-01-2013, 04:24 PM

In the above responses shows all the major issues keeping all this from taking off, which is a pity:

The CPU grunt;
The ability to run windows OS (and thus associated astronomical instrument software) is paramount;
The cost.

As mentioned fit2PC...well out of the league for most users. The others mentioned...cost is within the target zone but they use other OS thus the lack of support. Hi Matthew...I haven't even considered something like that....but it's worthy of consideration. Expandability with it might be an issue...lack of USB and GPIO pins.

As Rick said....USB over Ethernet will be very nice but it's not the full blown panacea. Something that runs Ethernet, wireless, RS232 and USB...now that's the ticket.

But which one?

Difficult to say...probably Pi is a good place to start but those other mini boards with RS232/wireless/BT inbuilt would make it a hell of a lot easier.

chaffingbuttock (Matthew) · #11 02-01-2013, 05:23 PM

Yeah it's a bit skimp on connectables, but the benq unit has one USB (albeit mini) which allows you to connect a hub to it. That way you can connect as many USB devices to it. This is the guide to installing winXP. Looks simple enough. I'm not sure what software you guys are wanting to run, but there is also a workaround apparently (also on that page) that allows you to shift file directories to external SD card since the 2gb internal is a bit light. PHD guiding software is only 10mb so there should be enough space for that and it apparently runs on winXP so i'm not sure what the cpu requirement is. If you only have barebones installed, i guess it should run ok?

chaffingbuttock (Matthew) · #12 02-01-2013, 05:57 PM

Not sure if you saw this, but there is a thread that has some interesting information.

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthrea...1/Main/5369851

wasyoungonce (Brendan) · #13 02-01-2013, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaffingbuttock

Not sure if you saw this, but there is a thread that has some interesting information.

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthrea...1/Main/5369851

Hi Matthew, Yep that's exactly what I am on about and have been drooling over. That's a Raspberry Pi running PHD Linux version.

Although I did read that PHD INDI drivers were a bit resource hog and the OP of the thread then used LIN-guider. Lin-guider is an astronomical autoguiding program for Linux. However that's just one astro program running...not a whole suite.

The issue I see is that well for people like me I use an program called APT to control my DSLR exposures (others use BYE, or some more exotic package like maxim DL. and so forth). APT and BYE software packages use PHD for dithering images etc. So it's not that simple to dump PHD for lin-guider.

There are knock on effects.

As is with all software this is a price to pay...which will turn users away. Conformity is the key...that's why ASCOM and things like EQMOD are so popular. Prior to ASCOM it was pretty much a dogs breakfast on telescope and accessory control software conformity.

Same issue here...we need Linux ASCOM or small microcomputers that can run windows. Don't forget with windows we can downsize the OS package using things like nlite.

pmrid (Peter) · #14 02-01-2013, 06:35 PM

Worth noting that the PandaBoard has a genuine RS232 built in. Hmmm!
Peter

rmuhlack (Richard) · #15 02-01-2013, 10:21 PM

probably also worth drawing your attention to this thread from earlier in 2012, and my success at getting ascom, eqmod and BYE running under linux/wine

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...ad.php?t=92445

wasyoungonce (Brendan) · #16 03-01-2013, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmuhlack

probably also worth drawing your attention to this thread from earlier in 2012, and my success at getting ascom, eqmod and BYE running under linux/wine

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...ad.php?t=92445

Now that is the Cat's Pajamas.

Well done indeed. How did you get BYE running under this? I read it's windows only.???

I have a old computer I might get it up and running this this a shot, although I think I cannot use the ASCOM interface for my Gemini (Gemini ASCOM.net) driver as stellarium uses kinda it's own generic LX200 driver set.I saw some post by barrykgerdes on this...might also be able to use stellariumscope to insert ASCOM drivers to stellarium..edit: already done..

Have also been looking at linguider, QHY guider drivers for Linux. Wether this will run on a ARM board...who knows? I guess there is only one way to tell!

Pity the skyX isn't Linux compatible as this has plenty of ASCOM plugins.

rmuhlack (Richard) · #17 03-01-2013, 10:00 AM

Pretty sure that once I had installed .NET under wine that I was then able to install BYE. I'm on holidays interstate this week so i'll check when I get back home. I wasn't able to install the windows version of PHD guiding under wine at the time and haven't looked at it since. the linux version (openPHD) uses the INDI protocol rather than ASCOM, so i'm not sure if you can 'mix' the two.

Dunno whether all this would work on an ARM board - as you say only one way to find out!

RickS (Rick) · #18 03-01-2013, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmuhlack

Dunno whether all this would work on an ARM board - as you say only one way to find out!

Wine doesn't do instruction set emulation so it doesn't provide the ability to run x86 Windows executables on an ARM processor.

Cheers,
Rick.

rmuhlack (Richard) · #19 03-01-2013, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickS

Wine doesn't do instruction set emulation so it doesn't provide the ability to run x86 Windows executables on an ARM processor.

Cheers,
Rick.

well there you go - that answers that question - thanks Rick

Nortilus (Josh) · #20 03-01-2013, 12:21 PM

im looking at using an Asus EeePC and using remote desktop to control it. I will just make a Network cable long enough to run into my house (max of about 90metres for Cat5/5e/6 before repeater). 10/100 network is heaps enough bandwidth for this.
You can run windows xp on these little devices. Setup a network drive back to your main PC so all data is not locally saved on the device. Should work like a champ. You can also upgrade these things by yourself. Put larger SSDs in them, more Ram. they run off an external powerpack. you can get larger batteries for them if needed.
I think this would be the easier option than messing with linux based devices such as the RPis...