Thanks all of you, i appreciate your gracious comments, yep mike is a legend, but i really admire his willingness to share his knowledge thx again mike i have been out most nights since the lesson, and with bino,s and i recon i can now find octans reliably so that has been a big boost
ross; i would love to see the solution to the star problem, anything greg has to say on the matter is worth checking out
and any help to lessen the steep learning curve is a bonus
brad