[CraigS]

Originally Posted by joe_smith

First let me say the views hear might be aggressive by some but this is human nature and cannot be avoided theist's and atheist's will always lock horns as the are at different ends of the scale.

This is not about religious beliefs ! I have no such beliefs in this place! I left 'em at the door. I urge you to do the same.

Originally Posted by joe_smith

First let me say when I talk of faith its not in a theist or atheist view its using the word as just faith in a idea is right, and not in an entity based faith.

It makes no difference whether its about a deity or not. Its about the belief you are right!
…Leave it at the door and you will learn. Bring it here and you will have problems !

Originally Posted by joe_smith

Scientist's must have faith in their ideas to pursue them as not all the theory's can be proven Scientifically with its methods, Louie Paster and even Einstein must of had faith when starting their quest to greatness, as its all they could have to believe that their theory was correct and they had to find the evidence to prove it was true, and that faith and belief found in all humans was right. Yes they used the scientific method but it was based on an idea that started as an idea they believed in and had faith deep down they were on the right path to drive them forward.

Not so. It wasn't until Karl Popper entered the scene that this rationale come into Science. He altered everything. Pasteur came way before Popper. Einstein's life was co-incident with Popper's. The wrangling of the two resulted in the airtightness of scientific method.

Originally Posted by joe_smith

Bojan, Craig and Bert you are using human emotions in your replies (yes, so am I) and this is the whole point I think you are missing you are classing your view of science as something separate from the human mind like its some kind of deity grater than the man doing the science. The scientific methods don't need faith or belief they are a set of rules one has to follow to prove a theory works. BUT the person doing the work, the person Interpreting the "See Deductive Reasoning, Inductive Reasoning, Theorem , Axiomatic Systems, Formal and Informal Proof, Proof theory, Mathematical Logic is totally different to those facts we have a conscious mind powered by an big self centred ego. This is the true power of science not the tools. Its people believing in ideas thought up by there conscious mind and having the faith in them to follow them.

The power comes from striving for integrity. This is the 'discipline of Science' of which we speak so often. We are human beings each wrangling with our own weaknesses. I refuse to give in to them. To abandon the quest is to fall out of integrity. To choose not to even undertake the quest, is to exclude oneself from the pursuit of Science. (And Science Forums).

Originally Posted by joe_smith

I agree, but to follow a different path from the "accepted view" that person is having faith and a belief in their idea to pursue the new path in the fist place. Its a conscious mind doing it not a set of rules. He must follow the rules but is in no way part of them. our consciousness can give us an infinite number of ideas, dreams to follow and what it will even allow us to believe. We believe and have faith that we are on the right path but we cant prove it.

And you never will. But mathematics proves things all the time ! Remember .. you have made that choice … no one else did !

Originally Posted by joe_smith

WHAT... are you saying human consciousness can be mathematically proven that the validity of mathematically proven theories on human consciousness to prove future events as fact!!!

Not at all. You said that. Not me, man !

Originally Posted by joe_smith

man, submit it and be the most famous scientist in the history of mankind. Explain how the speed of light is mathematically proven, but science has beaten it and gone faster? if so why do we still have the mathematically proven theorem that nothing is faster than the speed of light? maths is good up to a point but can be truly accepted as the cold hard truth. Just like my example of the speed of light scientific methods have proven this to be false, Einstein was wrong and his theory has been Disproven with the scientific method. If this is true why do we still use the theory that nothing is faster the light??

You still don't understand the difference between scientific method and mathematical certainty. And you never will until you check your beliefs at the door. Just because you choose to not undertake the quest for understanding does not give you the right to speak from an authority position, of that which you choose to not understand. Nor speak from this position in a Science Forum !

Originally Posted by joe_smith

That is a view from a atheists view point not a scientific view point science has to be agnostic it cant have a totally theist view or a total atheist view as its imposable to prove one or the other so by the scientific method its still on the table until proven by the facts one way or the other. you can have your personal views on the subject but you cant use science tools to prove one way or the other if a theists view is wrong. Because using the data they have then the same atheists view is also wrong using the same data. look at the theory of the Biocentric Universe this theory will challenge all current scientific views on the universe if found to be true its ground breaking because it includes human consciousness the very thing current science dose not include in their list of trick of the trade.

Theories are never proven true. You said that. And it is based on a complete misunderstanding because you chose to not park your beliefs before you came here. Science does not even attempt to prove truths .. never has, never will

Joe, I hope we remain respectful of eachother. This is not about personalities. This is about business ! Science Forum business !

I'm worn out .. this thread needs locking ..!!

Moderators, Please, pretty please … Thread Lock Request ??

Cheers