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thanks rod, interestng stuff. I have often seen stars that i had previously thought beyond the capabilities of both my eyes and my telescope (not mag 17 but still talking somewhere around 14 in my 8") so you just cant tell if something is going to be visible till you try.
i find swaping fron my 30mm to my 15mm will bring more contrast to objects as stated in the first example. but i wouldnt go below in my telescope. you could (i uderstand) use a 7mm in a 12" dob to get good detail!
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