New scope day turns sour

[RickS]

Yesterday, my much anticipated new AG12 arrived from the UK. As you can imagine I was very excited, especially since the journey from the UK took longer than expected with the scope bouncing around Heathrow for several days until I rang the courier to ask what was going on. I didn't get a useful answer, but the scope finally did get on a plane for Australia.

The shipment finally arrived yesterday - two boxes in the morning and the final box of three in the afternoon. I raced home from work as soon as I could and started unpacking. Everything looked great until I got to the last well wrapped bundle containing the mirror cell and mirror. I was aghast... the pictures attached show you what I found inside. It looks like somebody tried a destructive drop test on the carton, perhaps encouraged by all the "Fragile" stickers.

The good news is that Orion Optics responded to my email tale of woe very promptly and it looks like I'll have the scope up and running before too much longer. I also can't fault their packing. Given the damage to the solid metal mirror cell it looks like the package has been subject to serious deceleration.

I'll let you know how the story turns out. Coming on top of a very expensive CCD camera that had to be returned to the USA for "evaluation" of the sensor I feel like I deserve some good luck.

Speaking of which, does the seven years of bad luck superstition apply to couriers?

Cheers,
Rick.

[Dennis]

Oh man, that is terrible news, what an awful experience to be faced with this destruction upon opening the boxes. I hope it get sorted soon.

Cheers

Dennis

[lhansen]

Given the anticipation you get when buying something like this I can totally feel you disappointment. I am so sorry. this is where dealing with a reputable company that cares about outcomes becomes an importent consideration.

I hope it all works out in your favour

[DavidTrap]

OMG!!! Very sorry to see these pics Ric. What is the projected time for a replacement mirror & cell? Will you be able to fit it together here in Oz or will it require shipping back to the UK??

Hope the courier company doesn't fight the claim.

DT

[blink138]

i would have blubbed like a baby!
pat

[Peter Ward]

Ouch!!

I have received a number of very expensive mirror shipments over the years, but thankfully have never seen that sort of result.

Then again they all were double boxed, the inner being in a sea of styrofoam beans....so even dropping the box from head-height had no damaging effect.

Unfortunately bubble-wrap alone doesn't cut it...and shipping large mirrors in their cell is not a great idea if you can't monitor the handling every step of the way. (there fancy new "g-force" sensing labels that now address this)

Hope it works out OK in the end...

[MortonH]

That's shocking,. I don't know how some of these couriers stay in business.

Morton

[DavidNg]

They certainly kicked your third parcel around. Just wondering with such sensitive and expensive equipment why wasn't a hard case or some sort of crate used?

[Tandum]

That's a real pisser Rick. It looks like fining up this week too :(

[gregbradley]

Wow, that must have been disappointing. However rough couriers are a known quantity and double boxing in a sea of styrofoam as Peter points out is the level of packaging required against the occassional abuser.

Perhaps you can gently let them know thats how you want your replacement sent so it doesn't happen again.

What was the story with your camera? What brand and make is that?

Greg.

[Larryp]

That's terrible! i feel really sorry for you, and I hope it all gets sorted quickly.:(

[Forgey]

OMG I would have cried, I hope u get it sorted real soon.

[RickS]

Thanks, Dennis!



Thanks, Lars. Orion have been great to deal with so I'm expecting a good outcome.



David, a replacement mirror is available immediately. A new cell might take a little longer (when we were exchanging email on Friday night I hadn't had a chance to pull everything apart so I didn't know if the cell was OK or not). I should be able to fit the mirror and cell myself.



Good idea, Pat! Perhaps I should have done that :)



It was double boxed as well with some serious tape and cardboard to hold the mirror in place. Not quite to Takahashi triple box standards but they certainly did make a good effort. Thanks for the good wishes, Peter!



Unfortunately, they all have bad days. We use all the major couriers at work and none really shine.



It's a big scope, over 1m long, so if you add some extra layers of protection it gets really expensive to ship. I guess you just have to balance cost and the possibility of damage in transit.



I've reached the stage of being philosophical about it now, Robin ;) I should be preparing for the eclipse this week anyway.



Greg, the camera was an Apogee U16M with D9 body. I bought it near new from IIS. Apogee have been good with their support and have been happy to honour the warranty (I checked with them before I bought it). Unfortunately, the sensor appears out of spec. Apogee sent some of my test data back to Truesense Imaging and they asked to get the sensor back for evaluation. I'm hoping they will replace it and send it back to me soon.

[RickS]

Thanks, Laurie and Paula!

[Osirisra]

OMG, that would have been one nasty to the open it up in the excitement and have that reveal itself. Not many worse things to discover than that!

Glad Orion are on the ball and sorting it out for ya. That first light is going to be all the more sweeter ey :)

[strongmanmike]

Shocking state of affairs that Rick, I know Orion will fix it but still, no one wants to have such an arrival. Initially I was concerned about the packing but seeing these photos, that looks like serious handling neglect to me that no manner of packing would have helped :mad2: Orion must be spewing as much as you.

Hang in there mate, when the dust settles all will be forgot I am sure.

Enjoy the eclipse, it will work out, these are great scopes (when delivered intact :rolleyes:) :thumbsup:

Mike

[gregbradley]

When you say sensor was out of spec what was the issue? Too many columns or a grouping of hot pixels or something like that?

I haven't heard of a faulty 16803 sensor before.

Greg.

[Peter Ward]

Wow double boxed (with beads ? ) and that still happened?!

Must have been dropped from a Red-Bull balloon !

Not good at all.

FedEx? UPS? or was it another carrier?

[RickS]

I'm taking it philosophically, thanks Ken. As you say I will appreciate it all the more when everything comes together and those first few images pop out!



Thanks, Mike. Yes, I agree it must have taken quite a beating.



Greg, the sensor had one really hot column the full height of the sensor followed by two more contiguous columns that weren't as bad but still noticeably hotter than surrounding columns. There was also a clump of hot pixels around 20 pixels in diameter, centered on the hot column.

These defects could not be removed by cooling to -35C and dithering wasn't effective because of the size of the defective area. The columns just smeared and the hot clump of pixels showed up as a fake star.

The spec for the standard grade 16803 says that up to 10 column defects is OK but more than one contiguous column defect is not. After sending a bunch of test frames to Truesense via Apogee they asked me to send the camera back so I'm hopeful they will fix it under warranty.

BTW, that's something to watch. The Apogee warranty doesn't cover the sensor. It is covered by the original sensor manufacturer. Despite the camera only arriving with the first owner in AU a couple of months before I received it, it was nearly a year since the sensor was sold by Truesense and the sensor warranty was due to end only a few days after I returned the camera.

Cheers,
Rick.

[RickS]

It was a well-known international carrier but I don't want to name names on the off chance it prejudices any insurance claim by Orion.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Sorry to hear your sad tale Rick. I hope it gets sorted quickly.

I too have had a problem with shipment damage (which isn't bad considering the amount of stuff I order), but thankfully, the sender (JMI Telescopes) sorted it out very quickly indeed.

It isn't whether you have a problem, as these do occur from time to time, as disheartening as this can be. The important thing is how that problem is dealt with. But it sounds like you are getting it sorted quickly.

Cheers Peter

[Stardrifter_WA]

Rick, I think you're right not to name the courier.

I have had many parcels (astro equipment and otherwise) from Fed Ex, UPS and others and have had only one damaged item and one lost item out of hundreds. It wouldn't matter what courier you use these things, unfortunately, will happen, as upsetting as that is.

Considering the many millions of parcels handled daily by these companies, it is inevitable some damage will occur, particularly considering they are mostly handled by low paid and often under trained employees. Having said that, that is what insurance is for, after all.

Cheers Peter

[jjjnettie]

Rick, I feel sick in the stomach just looking at that. :(
I hope they sort it out for you very soon.

[RickS]

Thanks, Peter & JJJ!

[h0ughy]

wow, now thats cringe worthy. hope things work out

[allan gould]

I'm speechless and would have been a gibbering wreck.

[cmknight]

Man, that puppy wasn't just dropped ... it was run over by the aircraft!!

[pmrid]

Anyone looking at that mirror will cringe at the destruction of something that special. What a shock that must have been. Chin up mate.

Peter

[bartman]

Far out Rick!
Thats just CRAZY on all levels....:screwy::screwy::screwy:: screwy::screwy::screwy:
Hope it gets sorted out soon
Bartman

[gregbradley]

I can see a series of defective columns being tough to get rid of.
My sensor in a 2nd hand body was supposedly hand picked by Fli for the buyer. It had no columns and no clusters of hot pixels. It has very few hot pixels at all.
I have had it for about 4 years now and it now had a weak poor column (I think its not really a defective column its a hot pixel smear that pulls down the sensor during the read out process much like in an KAI11000 chip).
The column often doesn't show or dark subtracts out easily.
So that is the standard.

Lucky about the warranty period, wow. That was a good catch. The chip is probably worth a few thousand dollars.

Greg.

[Shark Bait]

Looks like Mario from Swift and Shift Couriers was sub-contracted to do the delivery.

It is good to hear that Orion UK are taking care of it and I hope the next cell turns up in perfect condition.

[Peter Ward]

For those who may not be aware, both UPS and FedEx claim to have very limitied exposure with damaged shipments.

To quote their fine-print...

"UPS does not provide special handling for packages with "Fragile," package orientation (for example, "UP" arrows or "This End Up" markings), or any other similar such markings"

Fedex is little better...and will only pay out of the integrity of the box/container has been broken, and even then does not accept any liability for glass/fragile items.

I've had to endure aviation Danderous Goods annual handling courses for many years...makes you wonder about their duty of care.....and whether the above are even legal.

Perhaps marking the package "1.4S Explosive" or "bio-hazard" might help...the latter meaning "I'll rip 'yer bloody arms off if you drop this" :)

[multiweb]

What a bummer Rick. Hope it all turns out ok for you. Unreal. :sadeyes:

[gregbradley]

Not to sound harsh but I would be blaming it more on inadequate packing by OOUK. It sounds like they didn't do a good enough
job of packaging the gear to survive the trip and surviving the possibility of poor handling or being dropped.

I get the idea OOUK is a newish company that is expanding and perhaps not as experienced as some of the others like Tak, Astrophysics etc.
I have never heard of one of their scopes arriving smashed.

Its well known that couriers can sometimes be rough. So why isn't the packaging designed to survive that known environment?

Unless the unit was involved in a car accident or something extreme its just OOUK not packaging up to the correct standard.

Double boxed would not be effective if the boxes are similar in size and close together. The drop shock would simply transfer inside too easily.
Bubble wrap offers no gap to absorb impact. A simple 1.5 metre fall could have done that.

It needs a much larger outer box with a much smaller inner box, heavy duty cardboard and foam peanuts or similar in between. The inner box needs a styro foam support for the unit not just wrapped in bubble wrap which has limited shock absorbing ability.

As someone mentioned Tak scopes are often triple boxed. Tak gear I have bought was always super well packaged and you could tell it would survive serious mishandling.

A 12 inch mirror cell is probably very heavy as well. Perhaps it should be packed in a small timber crate with styro foam supports and then double boxed as above. Its also the most expensive component of the scope.

If they ship internationally and do not pack to withstand a 1.5 metre fall then they need to raise the standard of their packaging so it will or this is likely to happen to them a lot.

So going cheap on the packaging ends up costing them a lot and was not an economy after all plus upsets the customer.
Good on them for taking responsibility for the problem though. That is nice of them but really they sound responsible for the problem in the first place.

You wanna see good packaging? Buy anything from Germany! You'll need a large trailer to get rid of all the packaging though!

Greg.

[Irish stargazer]

I would be devastated.:(
When I shipped my three scopes from Ireland to Melbourne, the first thing I did was open the box for the C11, shake it a bit and hope I didn't hear the sound of clinking glass. All arrived in one piece thankfully. When they load your gear into a 20 foot container you know there is nothing you can do until it arrives and clears customs. No matter how you label it (fragile) they still treat it like any other box.I did have one box ripped open with a box cutter by customs once checking out the 8" Meade
Orion Optics are a very good company to deal with so I am sure you will be sorted out in due time

[strongmanmike]

That's a pretty big call Greg :shrug:.....like putting security on your home you can put as much in as you want but in the end if someone really wants to get in..they will and you can't really blame the security company.

I work in logistics as a job, I send and receive package's, crates and shipping containers every day and this happens from time to time. I would see strong wooden crates including one I had built and packed myself, damaged on arrival and flimsy grossly inadequate cardboard boxes arrive perfect...it is a lucky dip at times.

Orion Optics are not new on the market at all either and they have successfully shipped thousand of items around the World.

Having said that, incidents like this cause reviews and we changed packing approaches several times when I worked in Newcastle for nearly 3 years sending fibre glass parts around the country and the World.

It is important that Rick is looked after and I am sure he will be :thumbsup:

Mike

[RickS]

Thanks for the commiserations, everybody! I'm optimistic that this will be fixed quickly. I've even had email responses from Orion Optics over the weekend working on a resolution.

I don't believe there was any issue with the packaging. I think it was a reasonable compromise between shipping volume/cost and the level of protection.

Hopefully, I will be posting back in this thread in a couple of weeks to say how wonderful my new scope is... and complaining about the frogs falling from the sky ;)



Thanks, Derek :lol:

[strongmanmike]

Well..ahr hem.. Chris is almost an anagram of Rick..? :scared3:

No idea what happened there :lol:...:question:....:screwy:

Mike..?..Peter...err?...Arnie

[Peter Ward]

Sooo..... these packages you deal with, day in, day out:

do they contain white powder?? :)

[Stardrifter_WA]

Hmmm,, bit risky there Peter, the Fed's might not take too kindly to explosive or bio hazard signs, alas! :)

[cmknight]

"Originally Posted by strongmanmike
It is important that Chris is looked after and I am sure he will be"

Between my wife and the meds, I am well looked after. Thanks for all the concern.:lol:

[wasyoungonce]

Still that gut sinking feeling when opening the package! :jawdrop: ...one of life's lesser experiences.

[RickS]

Orion have been in regular contact. Latest news is that they expect to ship me a new mirror and mirror cell early next week. Hurrah! I'm very happy with how they have dealt with this.

Cheers,
Rick.

[strongmanmike]

Great to hear Rick, you can relax in Cairns now...will be a long forgotten dream (nightmare :scared:) soon :thumbsup:

Mike

[gregbradley]

That's very fast service. Good news. A plus for them with their customer service backup.

Greg.

[RickS]

The new mirror and cell have arrived safely. I'm very happy with the quick and helpful response from Orion Optics :thumbsup: I will report back when I get a chance to collimate and test the scope. Unfortunately, it's a busy time of year and that may not be for a few weeks.

Thanks, everybody, for your interest and support.

Cheers,
Rick.

[Kunama]

That is great backup of the product !!!

[whzzz28]

AHH!
I knew it!
This horrid weather had to have come from someone's purchase - i guess i know who to blame now :)

Don't worry - at the rate Brisbane weathers been going, you won't get out till after new years.

Good luck with the new equipment, was meant to post earlier but forgot in the shock of seeing such carnage.

[RickS]

Thanks, guys.

Nathan: you can't blame me for the weather until the scope is assembled and collimated :lol:

[bartman]

Maybe an odd question.......
Rick, the side on pic of the mirror ( pic 2 and 3) show lateral banding and waves in the glass. Is this normal or due to the drop it had?
Just curious....
Good to hear you got a new one so soon!
Bartman

[gregbradley]

[QUOTE=RickS;919296]Thanks, guys.

I look forward to your review of the scope.

Mike has me thinking about getting one for my dark site observatory now.

Specifically I would be mostly interested in flexure problems.

Greg.

[RickS]

Bart: the new mirror is the same. I think it's due to the way the mirror blank is cast.



I'll let you know how it goes, Greg. I was going to compare guiding using the internal guide chip in my STL11K vs an external guide scope (which is what I'll ultimately need to use with my U16M when it finally comes back from the USA).

I picked up a nice lightweight, solid guide scope to use - a Borg 50mm achromat.

Cheers,
Rick.

[naskies]

Glad to hear that you have it sorted! Out of curiosity, did Orion ask you to ship the damaged mirror back?

[Satchmo]

Bertman- The glass blanks with the wavy edge are made by Schott and material trade name is Suprax ( not to be confused with the new Supremax borosilcate available in thick sheets which is actually Schott Borofloat 33 ) . They have a coefficient of expansion somewhere in between Plate Glass and Borosilicates made by Corning ( eg. Pyrex).

I am not sure why the blank have not been diamond edged for release of strain and to to give a nice mechanical edge. Schott do not offer a fine- annealing service for Suprax, so I would assume that it was fine or precision -annealled by some third party. I have queried Orion on these matters in the past and didn't get a response. They do not say anything about the anneal of their optics on their web site. Perhaps a question on their forum might get a response.

[RickS]

Thanks, Dave. They asked me to hang on to the damaged mirror until they finish sorting out insurance.

[bartman]

Thanks Mark for that :)
Curiosity now satisfied :)
Bartman