Another "What equipment is best for me" thread :)

[Jethro777]

Hi,

I am a amateur photographer and have a Sony Alpha A65 camera. I wanted to get started with astro photography without breaking the bank, but am willing to wait and save if I should.

From doing research, the Meade ETX 90 / 105 looks affordable if I put my mind to it, and I definitely need a 'goto' function and tracking.

As I understand it, the ETX 90 etc.. will track and allow long exposures, which is what I want. If it can find, does it mean it can track too? (PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong!) :screwy:

What is important to me is :

Quality of lens
Portability
Tracks!
Allows the camera to be piggy backed easily (on that point, I need an adaptor like this, right? --> http://www.telescopeadapters.com/true2_sony.htm)

The ETX 90/105 seems to have it, is there anything else I could/should look at in a similar price range?

[barx1963]

Hi Jethro, welcome to IIS

While the ETX line of scopes track, they are fork mounted Alt Az scopes so they are not suitable for long exposure imaging as you will get major field rotation in long exposure images.
While in theory they can be mounted on a wedge they are not particularly good for that. I had a little ETX for a while and it simply did not like being on a wedge, the motors and gears simply were not robust enough.
They may well have improved since then but to my knowledge there is almost no imaging being done with these scopes.

Astro imaging is an endeavour that is hard to do cheaply, especially if we are talking about long exposure deep sky imaging. That said there are several areas of astro imaging that can utilise your existing equipment, eg star trails, nightscapes and time lapse imaging, afocal lunar, white light solar with a solar filter attached to your tele lense etc.

Malcolm

[Jethro777]

Thanks Malcolm, and for the welcome too! So, there are clearly limits to what the ETX will do.

What can the ETX do?
What can't it do?

What would be a sensible upgrade path / approach so to minimise costs and slowly build up to something practical if I start with the ETX, or is it best to skip and save for something else?

Ultimately, as it is, I am using standard lenses (very nice ones!) to take some pictures, but wanted to do more..

What WOULD work? Thanks!

[barx1963]

No worries Jethro
Firstly I am not by any stretch an imager, so there will be lots of people here on IIS that have more knowedge than I. That said I know enough t have a pretty good idea what will not work.
What sort of gear do you have? Eg dslr? Lenses? etc.
I can recommend this book http://www.bintel.com.au/Accessories/Books--Charts-and-Software/Digital-SLR-Astrophotography/480/productview.aspx which is an intro to DSLR imaging and is a good intro to the general principles of astro imaging.

Should give you some ideas.

Malcolm

[Jethro777]

Thanks, I'll try and give a bit more information. Please be patient with me as I am just an enthusiastic newb.

I have some good DSLR equipment :

Sony A65 (this has the interesting electronic viewfinder, where I can see what the camera will actually see)
2 particularly good decent lenses, which I am not sure are particularly good for astrophotography however, we will see (my A65 is away for adjustment at the moment).

Minolta 100mm f/2.8 AF Macro and the Minolta 28-135 f/4 Secret Handshake, a particularly good lens, again, not sure how good for astrophotography, if anything, probably only for some lunar shots. That's why I want a telescope.

I have the equipment for long exposure (shutter remote). I know a little about noise reduction, but need to learn about techniques to improve image quality. I generally shoot in RAW.

I have some books (Turn Left at Orion, Nightwatch: A Practical Guide to Viewing the Universe).

I have a carbon fibre tripod 1.5m

So that covers the DSLR side of it.

From my research (much of it from here http://www.astropix.com/HTML/I_ASTROP/SCOPES.HTM), I figure the following :(But then, what newb really knows what they want :rofl: - thus the reason I am here, right?) ;)

I am a rank beginner. I have perhaps $400-600 to spend now, but am patient and can build up what he has, or wait for a longer time if more is really needed. I don't want to buy something that immediately loses its value, as if I just don't get into it, I will need to sell it and I prefer a market to exist where I won't lose too much. I don't mind getting one thing and then waiting for the next (staggered purchasing), if I am still interested, so I guess a big initial bang for my buck is a good idea to sustain interest. Anything I can do to dual-purpose the equipment for general photography would be especially cool.

My interest is in general astrophotography (exploring) and it would be nice to see some deep sky objects, though I live in an area of light pollution (Logan/Brisbane) (Do I want a Light Pollution clip-on Filter?).

I prefer to specialise in astrophotography and observe occasionally.

Portability is a big deal. I need to be able to carry it around, and I don't want to be lugging massive equipment around or have me hating the setup so much I do nothing down the track, which would be a shame.

It seems a refractor telescope between 60-100mm is about right.

I am thinking a gadget (goto) might be 'cool', but I am wondering how expensive some satisfactory tracking options might cost for long exposures.

I guess I will need a 'Sirius mount' as opposed to an equatorial one?. I have heard a HEQ5 Pro (at $1395?!!!! hahahaha!!!) or EQ6 (at $2000?!!) is good, but I swear I will not spend that much on a mount. Ever. It needs to be lightweight enough to move around easily, and I need a budget sensible option.

:thanx:

[brian nordstrom]

:shrug:Hi Jethro and welcome , nice cameras the sony aplha A65 , I have one and are still learning what it can do , and that's a lot ;).
Anyway as you already have a great camera , tripod and 2 excellent lenses how about looking into one of the new Vixen "Polarie" ? , there are a few threads already here at IIS on these and they are all positive , a cheeper option and you will be up and running in no time ??? :lol: .well soon anyway .
Do a search here and you will see what I mean .
Worth a look , dont you think ?
Brian.

[Jethro777]

Wow. It's cheap, brilliant, easy, how will it go with my lenses for astro? They are incredible standard lenses, but I guess if I want a close up view.. er... crop, lol!

But seriously, any thoughts on how the lenses would handle it? What I mean, is given my lenses, am I restricted to planets, etc.. or are nebulae a fair expectation?

I guess going to the 500mm AF reflector gets interesting, or where will this lead? This one seems to do the job, if I want more than my current lenses offer what is it?

http://stargazerslounge.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=55049

Cost is $510 including shipping for me, from Australia... Unfair, why do Americans have all the good prices, lol!

$460 from Adorama inc. Freight, not bad! Can anyone suggest a better place?

[Shiraz]

The scope and camera are secondary when starting out. Get a stable equatorial tracking mount - you will need one to image deep space objects and you can start by using your existing camera and lenses on it. The HEQ5 is the lowest cost mount that is generally accepted as a serious imaging mount. Look for a used one if the cost is off-putting, but don't bother messing around with anything less unless you want to be continually battling to get results. Sorry, but that really is the entry point, unless you are happy to restrict your imaging to wide fields, where a polarie or similar will do the job.
good luck. Ray

maybe read this http://www.danlessmann.com/Articles/AstroMistakes.htm

quote from the article: "In your own efforts, please, please, please start with the mount and make it a quality equatorial mount. Anything less and you'll be disappointed and frustrated as building a house on a shaky foundation will never work no matter how nice the house."

[asimov]

Sound advice from Ray. It's my opinion as well.

[Jethro777]

I hate spending more, but it is better than making a mistake. Good advice is no good unless one listens.

I will delay a purchase for a start and inform myself more. I appreciate the advice.

Would someone be kind enough to itemise for me what to get in what stages?

I'll do the first.

1. [Required] Decent mount. About $1300. Heq5.
2. ?

Thanks guys. The nice thing about admitting you know nothing is that at least you are free to learn, lol

[Shiraz]

Nobody can say what is best for you, but many people here have been through the painful process of trial and error that is needed to get a system that is usable. If we can help you get where you want to be with a little less pain, that's good.

2. When you have a mount, the best place to start might be to use your camera with the fixed focus lens to get some wider field images while you come to grips with the ideas of equatorial mounts, polar alignment, image stacking and processing etc. (assuming that you do not have such experience).

3. Then a general purpose scope with good colour correction (such as an ED80 with a field flattener for example) would probably be a good idea and bring some spectacular nebulae etc into reach. Your camera should be fine with the scope, but you will need an adapter to attach it. With the scope and camera you will be able to get some good images of the moon and sun, but for deep space objects, you will also need a small additional guide scope and guide camera to track a star near your target object and remove the small residual tracking errors in the mount. There are a few guide options, but something like the Orion guider package should be fine. You will also need a computer to drive the system. With such a setup, you should be able to take impressive images of a wide range of deep space objects.

4. after that, the sky is the limit so to speak and you will know where you want to go next. People seem to hang onto their ED80s and a HEQ5 should be easy to sell if you outgrow it.

Planetary imaging is a different ball game, with large scopes being the order of the day. If you want to go that way, you will need a different set of equipment.

anyway, good luck. regards Ray

[Wavytone]

Hi Jethro,

Choosing the right kind of scope depends on knowing what you want to do with it, and selecting one that is optimal for that. Otherwise you'll probably realise you bought the wrong scope.

The Meade ETX scopes have a very long focal length and are f/15. Great for photographing the sun(with solar filter), moon and planets, but f/15 is too slow to photograph much else (stars, nebulae). The drive is designed for tracking for visual purposes (to keep a planet in the field of view) but it is not adequate for long exposure photography, more than a second or so. For the solar eclipse it would be fine.

To photograph starfields, nebulae and galaxies you need much faster optics - no more than f/7 and ideally f/5, coupled with an equatorial mount known for good tracking such as the EQ5 or EQ6 types, PLUS an autoguider - this is a small telescope and a CCD imager that optically senses a few guide stars and provides signals to the mount to precisely correct any drift.

Many here use DSLR's by taking several short exposures a few minute each, and stacking them to reduce the sensor noise in the camera.

[Jethro777]

Great advice so far! Let me know if I'm missing anything...

Here is my updated build list (I will be updating it as I learn more) - Feel free to comment!

1. [Already have] DSLR + wide angle lens. Planning on using a wide and fast lenses, say 50mm and seeing what I can accomplish with my beauties and my bad, nasty carbon fibre tripod, lol...
2. [Required] Heq5 PRO About $1249 (http://www.bintel.com.au/Mounts---Tripods/EQ-Mounts/Skywatcher-HEQ5-Pro-GoTo-Mount/96/productview.aspx or http://telescope.com.au/Telescope/Home/txtSearch/heq5/List/0/ProductID/804.aspx?SortField=UnitCost%2cProdu ctName) for use with existing DSLR & lenses
3. [Required] Power Supply - Advice so far is to a high quality car jumpstarter that uses a deep cycle agm cell(s) for higher battery life. Apparently, using half the ah value of a battery will give you an estimate of how long the battery will run the scope. (7ah battery: 3-4 hours life). 24ah batteries are a popular compromise between long battery life and size/weight/cost.
4. [Optional Step up] (If I'm still having fun!) SkyWatcher Black Diamond 80ED, or other 80mm APO Refractor# to be recommended by you buys! :D
5. [Optional Step up] (If I'm having trouble with tracking) Auto-guiding system (Too far in the future to care about now)

# Clueless about what's best for me here. I like the idea of a refractor design, F/5 (from what I can read above) and 80mm APO seems to be what everyone recommends. Can anyone point me to such a beast?

Questions / Other issues / Crappy ideas that have been dumped (undoubtedly more will be added, lol!)

Buying now has been dumped as an idea. Too easy to make a mistake.
Cheap mount has been dumped as an idea. Don't feel like building my 'house' on sand.
Vixen Polarie has been dumped as an idea. Too limiting when I get to a decent telescope.
Meade ETX has been dumped as an idea. Too slow.
What is a field flattener?
Since the Sony A65/77 has a EVF and no OVF, is that an advantage or a disadvantage in astrophotography, or both?

[brian nordstrom]

;) Jethro , it it was me I would grab that Vixen GP2 mount and 80mm Stellarvue scope for sale here by Ian Fry , its a steal at $800 and a great set up .
Just a thought ?
Brian.

[Jethro777]

Thanks, but I just don't know enough yet. The mount seems less than everyones adament recommendations.

The scope seems great, but what do I know? :shrug:

[Shiraz]

looks like a good plan to me

A field flattener makes the scope work properly out to the edge of the camera chip. Scopes generally have curved focal planes - not a problem for visual use, but worth tidying up for imaging

EVF is probably OK provided the camera provides an enlarged view on the finder or viewing on a computer screen to help you do manual focusing. Maybe someone who has an A65 can help.

also, some of the articles in the beginners section in this are worth a read http://www.iceinspace.com.au/projects.html

[Jethro777]

I think I have pretty much developed a liking for this scope :

Explore Scientific 80mm f/6 Triplet ED Apochromatic Refractor $849 - 80mm aperture, 480mm focal length, f/6 air-spaced triplet ED apochromatic refractor

I am wondering whether a flattener is needed, or a better focuses, or is this just right out of the box? I can't seem to see any upgrade options on the sites that sell it. I am, however also keeping an eye open for a Megrez 80 II ED Triplet APO, and either will do secondhand, if anyone knows anyone.. :)

[brian nordstrom]

:question: Trust me Jethro , the Vixen Great Polaris mounts are as sturdy as an HEQ5 skywatcher and way sturdier than any EQ5/CG5 chinese mount , Oh ! and way better made as well ( Heaps better bearings , feel , castings , paint and gears by far ) , I have both and the GP is a beautiful mount ,but you may be to late , it looks like someone is sniffing around .
Brian.

[Larryp]

Jethro,
The Explore Scientific is really a North Group product-I think you would save yourself a bit of money buying it direct from North Group. For photography you would probably want to upgrade the focuser to a Moonlite or Feathertouch.
As far as mounts go, I have owned an HEQ5, a Vixen Great Polaris, and now I have an EQ3Pro. For stability, I would rate the HEQ5 as best, followed by EQ3 Pro, and the Great Polaris last. The Vixen GP is let down by its crappy tripod, either wood or aluminium.

[LAW]

I'm not saying I did it the right way but I have bought almost all my gear from the iis classifieds.
I can be patient when I want to be and it paid off, I have a 8" skywatcher 'black diamond' f/5 scope, and an eq6 (old model, no guideport) for <$600. With my 550D, laptop an guideport mod, off axis guider I'm pretty much set. Just saving up for a QHY5 guidecam at the moment.
It's probably not as portable as the setup you mentioned but it's hardly a mission to take it out most nights and I've been very impressed with the results (but I am easily impressed).

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww351/NSWRATS/IMG_3011.jpg

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww351/NSWRATS/IMG_3038.jpg

http://i735.photobucket.com/albums/ww351/NSWRATS/IMG_7792.jpg

[Jethro777]

Hi Murphy,

Your results look great! I am after a 80mm ED EPO, and not too many are looking to sell those. The others bits and pieces are another matter of course!

I am trying to get a few things second hand.

[Jethro777]

Thanks to the excellent help of the forum members here, especially Laurie, I am happy to say I think I know what I want and where to get it.

If you see anything you can contribute to the build (criticism or suggestions), let me know. The objective was to buy what was needed only once, and not to scrimp on equipment (just price!).

If you have any of the bits I need and want to sell, let me know!

For the benefit of anyone interested in the same, and for my benefit (if you know where to get something cheaper, or have thoughts on anything) here we go.. :

Scope

80mm ED APO Triplet Scope (North group) Awaiting quote $

Focuser

Moonlite Focuser w/10:1 fine focus, 4.5" Drawtube w/ compression ring & Triknob w. Focus lock $461 inc. postage to AU

Diagonal (????)


Actually, just checked, North Group do not supply a diagonal. I'm up for suggestions.

There are bintel versions here (http://www.bintel.com.au/searchedproduct.aspx?name=diagonal) . Is there a better one? Thoughts?


70 degree eyepiece bits (lol!) (North Group) Awaiting quote $

SWA15
SWA32
SWA10
2" 2X Barlow

Right angle finder

Orion 9x50 illuminated Right-Angle correct image

Scope Camera Adaptor (for Sony Alpha)

2" UltraWide Prime Focus Telescope Adapter $79+freight
(replaces ring system and is supposedly better)

Mount

HEQ5 Pro Go To Andrews Communications $1199

Auto guider (future purchase)

Orion Starshoot Autoguider w/ 50mm guide scope from Bintel $399+freight

Field Flattener (future purchase, we'll see what I get without it)

Williams Optics - Flattener P-FLAT 4 Bintel $149
(this scope is recommended for 500mm+ - Does anyone KNOW whether it works on 480mm?)

Light Pollution Suppressor (future purchase, could be short term considering where I live and pollution levels)

Hutech LPS P2 48 48mm (2" eyepiece) LPS Filter $189+freight

Love to hear what you think! :D

[Larryp]

Jethro, by eyepiece attachment, do you mean a 2" diagonal?:)

[Jethro777]

Just checked again - No afraid not. It was an error, thanks for finding it. I just updated it, it does not have a diagonal from northgroup, so I need to source one from elsewhere, unless the one they supply is just great the way it is. Considering I am getting half of it from elsewhere anyway, I'm not under huge pressure to get one there unless it really is a good idea. Do you have the Northgroup "2 inch/50.8mm 99% dielectric diagonal (silver color)" diagonal Laurie? What do you think of it?

[whzzz28]

I see you have a lot of visual equipment on your list (eyepieces, diagonal and Barlow).

For astrophotography you won't need a diagonal, and if your like me, your eyepieces will only ever be used for aligning the finderscope during the day. I do have a diagonal, but it came with the scope. You may need an extender though to reach focus without a diagonal, but they are a lot cheaper. A 50mm extension tube is a few dollars, compared to the $100+ for a diagonal.

My suggestions would be to ditch the diagonal and all but one (or two) eyepieces, also ditch the barlow as its almost useless for imaging and the ED80 doesn't have great focal length so planetary imaging isn't a good idea on the scope. ED80 excels at DSO (nebula and some galaxies).

With regards to the focuser: The moonlite is great. Do you think you would want to motorize it in the future?
I ask because it is a lot easier (and slightly cheaper i think) to purchase the focuser with motor attached from Moolite than it is to attach it yourself. Its abut $700/shipped for the motor version (with PC controller). Something to think about, not a necessity.

The scope is fine. The autoguider is a good choice as well.

Right angle finder: this is a personal preference but i found a red dot finder to be better for astrophotography. If your going to be doing visual then stick with the right angel finder. The red dot finders are pretty cheap ($35 from bintel) and simply put a red dot at where the scope is pointing. If you align it properly while there is still light then it can be very accurate.

Light pollution suppressor: wait until you have a month or two under your belt before grabbing a filter. You will have a hard enough time learning the ins-and-outs of the mount without worrying about a filter :)

Field flattener: I haven't used a William Optics flattener with my ED80 but i have used a HOTECH - SCA Field Flattener and Televue TRF-2008.
The Hotech is purely a field flattener where as the Televue is a field flattener and reducer (widens the field of view).
Both work well, although the Televue is a bit expensive in Australia at $399. Its cheaper from the US at $282. The HOTECH is a little cheaper at $245 US. Just providing some alternates.

Mount is fine. The HEQ5 is what i started out with and handles an ED80 perfectly fine.

2" UltraWide Prime Focus Telescope Adapter $79+freight
This concerns me. The field flatteners i mentioned, and the William Optics PFLAT4 all use a standard t-thread. This adapter is an ultra wide adapter, which is larger than a standard t-thread. You won't be able to use a field flattener unless the field flattener is made for wide adapters.
Instead i would recommend this (or any brand/similar equivalent):
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/792619-REG/Konus_1582_T_2_Ring_for_Sony.html

With that adapter your image train would look like this:
Scope -> Field Flattener -> T-Ring -> Sony Camera.

One other thing you probably havn't thought of is a power source for the camera. Do you have multiple batteries that you can swap out? My Canon goes through a battery every ~2hrs, with the back screen turned off. You may be able to get an AC adapter for the camera so you wouldn't need to go replace the battery all the time. Ebay has them normally for a few bucks from China.

[Larryp]

I have a Televue 2" diagonal and all Televue Nagler eyepieces, Jethro. But I have used a North Group diagonal and it is fine.:)
If you are a novice, I would go for all the visual gear first and forget about astrophotography for now. You need to learn how to use your telescope, how to use your mount and learn the night sky first.
If you look in "show us your equipment", there is a photo of my NG102mm set up for lunar/planetary photography.