"Testing the water" equipment - some advice?

[nakisawame]

Hi everyone,

I have a feeling what I'm about to ask may hurt your eyes, sorry about that!

My partner is keen on astronomy and so I'm looking to purchase an entry-level scope. Neither of us have owned or even used a telescope before so bare in mind anything that looks better than that with the naked eye is going to be a fun experience!

My low budget means I've narrowed it down to two options:

Celestron 76mm Firstscope
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Celestron-21024-76-mm-Firstscope/dp/B001UQ6E4Y/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1350840031&sr=1-2

Or

Saxon 767AZ
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Saxon-767AZ-Astronomy-Telescope-Barlow/dp/tech-data/B004QGXOHA/ref=de_a_smtd

Do I go with the Celestron Firstscope and purchase a barlow lens and maybe a moon filter (if so, what are your tight-budget recommendations?) or do I go for the Saxon with the extras "thrown in"?

Basically I'm not looking to pay more than £75 all-in-all, hence my limited options!

Any feedback would be great!

Many thanks,

Hannah

[brian nordstrom]

:) Hi Hannah and :welcome: . Both those are very basic scopes and my reccomendation and I recon most here will agree is save a few dollars more $199 and get the 'Orion Sky Scanner 100 ' from Bintel or even better the ' Skywatcher 6 inch Dobsonion ' for $329 , I know these are a little over your budget but in the long run you will have a much better scope that will show you heaps more than a 76mm will . ;) and thats where its at , light gathering .The more light a scope gathers the brighter the views and deeper you will see into space .
Just :thumbsup: click Bintels link on the main page here at IIS and go the Dobsonion telescopes and have a look .
Also you are buying local , so thats better for everyone + you get a money back guarentee if anything is amiss , Bintel , Andrews Communations , My astro shop and other local's are all local and great to deal with , and the guarentees give you piece of mind.
Hope this helps .:D .
Brian.

[barx1963]

Hi Hannah
I assume from the £ sign you are in the UK? If so the links to Bintel will not be much help!
But what Brian says is still largely correct.
A small budget is problematic in this hobby, but there are alternatives.
Cheap scopes are rarely much good, but decent binoculars are always an option. A basic set of 10x50s will be more use than one of those scopes

Malcolm

[Allan_L]

Hi Hannah,
welcome :welcome:
Firstly where are you located?

Just in case you cannot tell from the photos...
Both of these scopes are very small, table top scopes. Looking more like a microscope than a standard telescope.

Many have found that, because you need to use them outside, the availability of a stable table with clear sky views is limiting. And as stated, the small aperture of these means that you are not likely to see any more than a good pair of binoculars would yield.

For this reason, the advice already given, although budget stretching, is going to save to save you money in the end.

At the very least, you should aim for a 6 inch dobsonian.
If you can afford it, a 10 inch dobsonian.

These can be picked up occasionally on eBay for closer to your budget if new is not an option.

Hope you enjoy your new hobby.

[Kunama]

I agree with Malcolm, the best way to spend 75 pound in this hobby is to get some binoculars, they are a great way to learn the sky and you can use them while building up the monetary reserves for the spending to come. 10x50 are nice but I would rather have a decent 7x50 than a poor 10x50. ( I actually use 10x42 and love them for their sharp views and they fit into a coat pocket)

[jjjnettie]

Hannah, Welcome to Ice In Space. You've come to the right place for advice.
I whole heartedly agree with the advice to buy a pair of 10x50mm binos instead of a wobbly scope of small aperture.
Because what are binos? They are 2 telescopes joined together. You are viewing the sky in glorious Stereo.
The telescopes you are looking at while they are 76mm, once you subtract the central obstruction they are essentially just a 50mm scope. Which is just half a pair of binoculars of 10x50mm size. Honestly, the views you will get through a pair of binoculars will blow those scopes out of the water.
Here are some links for you to read. I have the book "Binocular Astronomy" it's awesome and includes star maps too, which is an excellent bonus.
http://www.skyandtelescope.com/howto/howtoequipment/3389576.html
http://www.willbell.com/handbook/hand2.htm
http://www.uvaa.org/BinocularResources.htm

I have 2 pair of binoculars and I use both regularly to cruise the night sky. They are essential kit for any astronomer.

I'd also advise buying a camera tripod and binocular adaptor so you can mount your binos for easier viewing. Ones arms can get pretty tired and shaky after holding them up for a while.

[jjjnettie]

The Astronomical League has a Binocular Messier Program.

"The Binocular Messier Program is for beginning observers as well as experienced amateurs. Beginning observers will find that it doesn't take an expensive telescope but only a simple pair of binoculars, no matter what size, cost or condition, to do serious astronomy. "

http://www.astroleague.org/al/obsclubs/binomess/binomess.html

[Rob_K]

How many times do you hear veteran observers from before the age of cheap giant mass-produced telescopes say that they started with a very small, poor quality telescope and that their first views amazed them & hooked them for life? The trouble with well-meaning advice that escalates the price range is that it also escalates the expectation not only that it's a simple matter of throwing money out for views, but that whatever they buy will also be 'inferior' to the top-of-the-range someone will inevitably recommend (10" in this case and counting).

Any mass-produced , "non-plastic" telescope from 50mm to whatever gigantic aperture will give you equivalently amazing views of the Universe provided they are used within their own particular limits and not pushed. But the views will be different, that's all.

Can't speak for the Saxon but I've used a 76mm Celestron and it gives perfectly fine views. To get the most out of it you'd ideally find fairly dark skies. I've tried it in moderately light-polluted skies in outer Melbourne and it's still surprising what you can see. Forget binoculars for the moment, you can't rest and savour the views really like you can in a telescope (unless of course you buy/make a stand ;) ). If you buy this one, use low powers only, except on Moon/planets where you may be able to zoom in depending on atmospheric conditions.

Great little scope if you're just testing the waters, small, light, very portable - just plonk it down and you're straight into viewing! First telescope choice doesn't have to be hard work, plenty of time for that if you get hooked. Just get one and get out there! :lol:

Good luck with whatever you try. :thumbsup:

Cheers -

[andyc]

I'd second Rob's advice. I started with a 60mm refractor on a fairly wobbly mount, and was very happy with it for a year or two while I learned the sky and started searching for a few fuzzies. It certainly didn't put me off! The first view of Saturn's rings is still memorable, twenty-odd years later. That said, I had access to an old pair of binoculars to supplement my viewing, which definitely helps to get the context of where things are in the sky in relation to bright stars and so on. It's always worth remembering that the views through a small scope (so long as it's not a complete junk refractor) will be a big improvement upon the unaided eye.

So if your budget's really tight, just go for it and if the interest catches further, you can save up for some more aperture, or an otherwise better piece of kit. For me, the interest caught and I'm now the very happy owner of a 16" scope. But it all started with an astronomy book with some star charts, old binoculars, and a few months after that, a 60mm refractor...

[Astro_Bot]

:welcome:

My 2 cents (pence?) worth:

Buy second-hand. Check local astro societies to see if they have advice on the best second-hand channels in your area, or you can check eBay.

With 75 GBP you ought to be able to stretch to a 6-inch push-to dobsonian second-hand (including a couple of basic eyepieces) which, IMHO, is the best bang-for-the-buck (err ... bang-for-the-pound?). It's not wobbly at all, a cinch to use and should keep you satisfied until either you reach a degree of knowledge where you won't need to ask (much) anymore, or you decide that more astronomy is not for you.

Also, download a program called Stellarium (it's free) and start playing with it.

[LewisM]

I'll third (or fourth) Rob's sage advice. I started with a cherry red Tasco 50mm refractor. It got me hooked, completely. I kept it for about 20 years before I foolishly sold it to help afford a dobsonian 8". I only recently found nother Tasco 50mm refrctor, only Meade branded, second hand here, and I bought it for nostalgia's sake. It is a DAMNED fine little refractor - I was once told these early Tasco's made in Japan were actually Takahashi "seconds" - maybe, maybe all bunk.

So, I have cleaned up that 50mm, repainted it- PURPLE - and my 4 year old daughter comes outside with Daddy until 7pm (not much time I know ;)) and looks up. She loves it already.

[Scorpius51]

Hi Hannah

I would not buy either of those 'scopes to use as a means of entry into astronomy - you would be disappointed! I did buy the Celestron as a novelty piece to put on my bookshelf, and that is where it stays. The eyepieces that come with it are of low quality, and the aperture is too small (in my opinion) for a reflector for any reasonable views. I would use better eyepieces, dark skies and buy second hand.

I do not know the other one you refer to, but my gut feeling is the same for it. You would get better performance from a 4" to 5" reflector.

You might be better off getting an equivalent aperture in a refractor of, say 60 mm to 80 mm.

I think the suggestion of buying good quality 10x50mm binoculars is a very good way to start. Very easy to use and very portable. A suitable tripod would be a bonus. Most of us would have a pair.

I would encourage you to buy second hand off a reputable astronomy forum - whatever your choice in 'scope is. Buying new initially is a just as much a gamble if you don't know what you are looking for - be prepared to return it!

Cheers
John

[loki78]

I would agree to find something decent 2nd hand. I picked up a Skywatcher 4" Mak on EQ3 for $100 in great condition with a few eyepieces and accessories on ebay.

If you get something cheap n nasty and it doesn't show you anything or shows you things that look awful, it will drive your interest away from astronomy altogether which would be an awful shame.

[nakisawame]

Thanks for such a fantastic response everyone, it's great to hear different opinions that's for sure!

Rather than replying to everyone individually and spamming you all to death, I'll try cover it all in one.

Firstly I am based in the North West of England in a small town near a bunch of fields - to the naked eye, we get great views of the sky with little-to-no pollution and means to stand a table top scope outside, so that's of no immediate concern!

I see a lot of people recommending binoculars as a first choice with my small budget, and as much as I can appreciate why, it's something that I probably won't be looking into - purely because it doesn't have the same feel as owning/using a telescope (as silly as that may sound). I'm also hoping through using a starter scope that we'd both learn more about setting them up, finding viewing objects and all the technical speak that currently goes straight over my head! Unfortunately I cannot push further than £75 in total as we have a little one on the way to prioritise, but I certainly wouldn't want to give up on the idea and come away with nothing at all!

I'd love to do some bargain hunting and look second hand - I've already scanned ebay a few times over the past month or so, problem being my lack of knowledge. All I see are a bunch of numbers with some fancy words and so find it hard to judge what's a good option! If anyone could enlighten me on what I should be looking out for (I hear a lot of aperture, refractor, reflector and 60mm/100mm etc) no idea how to really process any of it.

Thanks again to everyone for the advice as well as all the links and recommended software etc - I have been, and will continue to, look into all of it. Been a tremendous help already and such a lovely welcome to the forums :)

Hannah

[ourkind]

Hi Hannah,

Welcome! I'm not sure if someone has already suggested this but find your local Astronomical Society and see when they are getting together for a Star Party i.e. viewing session and go!

Here is a link to a list of Astronmical Soceties across Britain http://www.xyroth-enterprises.co.uk/ukas.htm

You might be pleasantly suprised to find that some members will not mind practically giving away a telescope they own which has been collecting dust for years or sell it to you cheap, and it would almost certainly be better than anything you can buy for £75 , you may be even able to borrow one and test it so to speak.

Best of luck :hi:

[jjjnettie]

I did a little bit of a search of Ebay UK and came up with these.
This first one looks a wee ripper. :)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/skywatcher-telescope-/330813392417?pt=UK_Photography_Tele scopes&hash=item4d0603c621
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mitzar-tal-110-4-3-newtonian-reflector-telescope-/170925497440?pt=UK_Photography_Tele scopes&hash=item27cbf41c60
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sky-Watcher-Reflector-Telescope-130mm-900mm-/271081777419?pt=UK_Photography_Tele scopes&hash=item3f1dbba90b
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Celestron-Astromaster-130-Telescope-/110965323247?pt=UK_Photography_Tele scopes&hash=item19d60c75ef

[barx1963]

Hannah
Given above quote, I think it is important that you learn a little more about scopes before jumping in. Given such a limited budget, it is important that you get something that you will be happy with and not feel you wasted your money.
The first thing to remember with scopes is that most of the time you get what you pay for. The other thing to bear in mind is there is no such thing as a good allround telescope. Every type has its shortcomings and strength and learning more so you understand those factors will help you to reach a decision.
To start the ball rolling I will dicuss some of the terms you may be struggling with

1. Aperture
This is the diameter of the lense or mirror that collects the light in a scope. Simply put the bigger the better! the 2 scope syou mentioned in your first post both have 76mm apertures, or approx 3 inches. They are very small. Only the brightest objects will be visible in these scope bcause they simply don't collect enough light. Increasing aperture has a dramatic effect. A six inch scope colect 4 times as much light as a 3 inch and a 12" get 16 times as much. Thats why we say aperture rules!

2. Refractor. This is a telescope that uses lenses to collect light. Usually the eyepiece(what you look through) is at the end of a tube with a bigger lense (objective) at the other. The size of the big lense or objective is the aperture.

3. Reflector. This is a scope that uses a mirror to collect the light. The commonest form is a Newtonion which has the main mirror (objective) at the bottom of a tube and the eyepiece off to one side of the top of the tube. Both of the scope you mentioned are in this style. The sie of the main mirror is the aperture.

I will continue this post shortly with some more info on focal length and eyepieces

Malcolm

[barx1963]

OK i am back at a computer and can continue!

4. 60mm/100mm. One of the things that beginners find daunting is what all the measurements mean. We have already encountered aperture, the other imprtant one is focal length. The focal lengths of your 2 scopes are 300mm for the Celestron and 700 for the Saxon. This is important as this measurement determines the amount of sky that you can see (also called the Field of View or FOV) Longer focal lengths give smaller FOVs and vice versa.
The other time you will encounter focal length is in relation to eyepieces.
You will notice that the Saxon come with 3 eyepieces that have lengths 25mm, 12.5mm and 4mm. Dividing the scopes focal length by the eyepiece focal length gives you a power (eg 700/25 = 28x) which can be thought of as magnification.
Obviously if you use the same eyepiece in a shorter scope, with a larger FOV, (eg 300/25 = 12X) you get a lower power view and you see more sky!
Now you may think that more power is good, but many objects are very dim and upping the power spreads the light out and makes them harder to see. Planets and the moon can take moderate to high power well but most deep sky objects (galaxies, clusters and nebulae) do best at low to moderate power.

I hope I have explained some things for you, and hopefully not made any errors. The nice people here at IIS will jump on me if I have!!:P

Malcolm

[Rob_K]

I can see we're going to have to have a little discussion about the philosophy of observing next time we meet up at Snake Valley Malcolm! :lol: Does observing have to be about seeing as many 'objects' as possible? Sounds like 'twitching' to me! If you're driven by a need to see mag 14 galaxies or every tendril of a nebula then yes, bigger is better. But not everyone has that need.

I observe in a club where currently 8" is the biggest aperture (and there's only one of them!). The stalwarts bring their 8" and smaller scopes out month after month, year after year, and never a word is mentioned about obscure galaxies, pn, nebulae etc. Several large scopes and their owners have fallen by the wayside and the monsters are gathering dust in sheds around the district.

For us it's just getting together under dark skies and viewing the seasonal offerings. When someone says that you can't see much in a small scope I know that either they've never viewed through one and/or their observing philosophy is fundamentally different to mine. And different to many people that I know.

Unfortunately, too often in astronomy forums such as IIS newcomers aren't given the chance to develop their own philosophy. Aperture rules and that's it. So a new generation of observers is launched on the path of dissatisfaction. With the meagre kit they can afford, with the way over-budget, recommended scope they bought as a stepping-stone to the 'big-one'... Always yearning for something 'bigger & better'. For newcomers, instant gratification that is promised but rarely gratified.

Not that I haven't enjoyed some amazing views through big scopes. But I'm quite happy moving from seeing the incredibly delicate shells of the 8-Burst Nebula through Tim Nott's 22" with its superb hand-crafted mirror, back to a faint blob hanging a field of pinpoint stars in my 4.5" Tasco. Without the slightest attack of 'aperture fever'. Or more correctly, 'aperture envy'! :P

Definitely the consistently-worst views I see are through mass-produced 10", 12" & 14" telescopes owned by newcomers, pushed to the limits because of this object fixation. Big dull objects, blobby stars, yuk! "Hey, look at the such-&-such galaxy through my new Cosmic Master Blaster!" You feel like saying, whoa dude, step back, put a field of stars in the view....

Cheers -

[Peter.M]

I would argue that the older smaller inferior telescope purchasers in the old days didnt have the amateur imagers inflating their expectations.

[barx1963]

Rob
I look forward to the discussion! :D
I guess my main aim in the posts was to try to assist the OP with some information. Hence I tried to outline some of the factors that would weigh on a purchasing decision and how a beginner can use that info to make an informed decision. The OP has a limited budget, that said, if a 76mm Firstscope is all the budget will allow, then go for it, but these scopes have limitations and will not give Hubble like views of the sky.

We can really only assist people with the benefit of experience, and from my personal experience, I still feel that my comments were valid. I owned a little 70mm goto refractor for a while and found using it difficult. Under dark skies it was quite handy, but with any level of light pollution, even the moderate level we have here in Colac, it dropped in usefulness markedly. Even M42 was a difficult object. Given that almost anywhere in the UK is going to have significant light pollution at least to a level similar to my home.

I will admit I haven't had the opportunity to look through one of the Firstscopes, but I have seen one and IMO they are just useable mechanically.

I recommended that the OP consider a pair of binos as an option. Partly because they would fit within a tight budget, but also because they could continue to give value if the observing bug bit and she later decided to get a larger scope. Odds were in that situation, a 76mm scope would sit gathering dust.

All that by the by, as you know Rob, I am in awe of your observing skills, and look forward to having that chat at SV! :thumbsup:

Malcolm

[nakisawame]

Hi again - sorry for such a delay in my response, I've been visiting my partners family and had no opportunity to post without him seeing!

jjjnettie - Much appreciated! (I did check the links out not long after you'd posted) the problem being I have no way of collecting telescopes that are self collection only. Unfortunately not many people selling 2nd hand scopes add a shipping option (I don't blame them!).

barx1963 - Amazing information, thank you very much! Really helped me understand a lot of things that were going over my head (though I must admit it'll take some time to properly sink in!). Quick question - about the eye pieces, you say to find the magnification you divide the scopes focal length by the eyepieces focal length: is this relative to the "highest useful magnification" I keep seeing on scope product details? So in other words you can do the math to see whether or the scope is capable of making good use out of whatever new eye piece you're looking at buying? I hope that made sense!

Rob - It's great to hear what you're saying as I know any view that is better than the naked eye is going to be amazing for us, and although I'm trying to educate myself more before buying a scope I certainly don't have high expectations nor crave top of the line gear just yet!

Having said that, I've decided to push the boat out a bit more (maybe it is starting already!) and have narrowed it down to two options but I'm struggling to know which is the better quality scope in terms of what I'll be able to see.

Skywatcher Heritage 130p
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Skywatcher-HERITAGE-130P-FlexTubeTM-Parabolic-Dobsonian/dp/B005KIXM66/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1351590875&sr=8-1

vs

Celestron Astromaster 130EQ
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Celestron-31045-Astromaster-130EQ/dp/tech-data/B000MLL6RS/ref=de_a_smtd

The obvious difference being the mount, but otherwise what's your opinion on how these match up in terms of specs? I get the feeling they're the same but am a bit too uncertain of my knowledge just yet!

Many thanks,

Hannah

[barx1963]

Hannah
I wondered where you had gone! Anyways Rob and I had amused ourselves with a discussion on observing philosophy while you were away!;)
The term "highest useful magnification" is often seen in ads for scopes and unfortunately is one of the things used to "bait" buyers who may not understand telescopes. For example on the ads you posted links to just now they gave figures of 260x and 307x as highest useful mag. If anyone in history has ever used these scopes usefully at those powers I would be extremely surprised. The larger (eg more aperture) a scope the more power it can handle. In my 12" scope I find it is useable at 150x and really struggles at 250x. I have heard of a rule that the maximum power is 50x per inch of aperture which means that I should be able to get to 600x but that assumes:
- perfect collimation
- perfect optics
- most importantly perfect conditions (eg still with no air movement at all)

As these conditions will almost never occur the "theoretical" limit is nearly impossible.
I had a 130mm scope and found I could use it easily at 36x and with a little more difficult at around 100x. The more power does 2 things it magnifies the object but also magnifies the effects of the atmosphere and with dim objects spreads out the light making them harder to see.

The upshot of all this is please ignore claims about magnification, they are just marketing hype and usually baloney!

With regard to the 2 scopes, if you are going to get one I would tend towards the Skywatcher. I have looked at one and they are not too bad mechanically. The Celestron is on an EQ mount which is not easy to use as a beginner and can be VERY frustrating. You will find the eyepiece ends up in all sorts of odd positions, you need to learn to polar align (admittedly that is easier in the Northern hemisphere with views of Polaris!) and navigation is not intuitive.

Malcolm

[nakisawame]

Hi again Malcolm!

I see, it's good to know what's only said to make things sound fancy instead of having actual relevance - as a first buyer it's far too easy to get sucked into these things.

I actually ended up buying a Skywatcher Explorer 130 EQ2 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/SkyWatcher-Explorer-130-900-EQ2-Telescope/dp/B0017GSLT8/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1351949625&sr=8-2). I decided that, as much fun as the dobsonian seemed with it's easy set up, it meant limited places for us to be able to use it (at least without getting a bad back!).
So then looking more into the Celestron Astromaster 130EQ, I found a fair amount of people saying that the Skywatcher Explorer 130 EQ2 was similar but of better quality for around the same cost and went for it. Shame I can't set it up until Christmas, it looks amazing in the box hah!

Hannah

[cmknight]

Hannah,
I would agree with most of the people here on a few points:

1) Start with binoculars, but not 10 X 50's. Go with 7 X 50's. The 10's can get weary to hold after a bit, and even if you have them on a tripod, you will find your neck to be getting sore after a while (a very short while). 7's will give you a wider field, and will be more comfortable to hold.

2) If you insist on a telescope, find out where your local astronomy clubs are and go to a meeting. You never know. One of the members just may have a 6" Dobsonian lying around that he never uses anymore. As well, most clubs have loaner scopes, which new members can sign out for a couple of weeks at a time. If they have one of the scopes you were originally looking at buying, borrow it, and see what you think. Try before you buy.

3) If you join one of these clubs, you would be surprised at the number of people willing to help you out. Some members may even be willing to help you build your own scope with a few donated or cheaply purchased parts. Nothing speaks more than something you and your partner have built, together, and observed with, together, for only a few pounds.

I will agree with other posters in that the two scopes you have mentioned as being interested in buying, are "toys". I know people who have owned both, and have been sadly disappointed with them. On the other hand, some people really enjoyed them. The choice, ultimately, is yours, but if I were you, I'd scout out some local astronomy clubs, first, and see what they have to offer.