Guns (in general)

[ving]

I know gun laws are there for a good reason and I am not going to set up a debate on whether they are too tough or shouldnt exist at all. I'd just like to know what you think of guns in general. do you like the idea of shooting as a sport? targets? game? would you be attracted to it yourself? do you htink all guns should be destroyed? would you include archery equipment?

Discuss here :)

i personally wouldnt mind trying a bit of indoor target shooting with say a air pistol or air rifle (of course i probably never will). I think guns belong in clubs not homes.... Yeah i know theres a place for them in farms too but I dont live on a farm so I cant really comment on that. I dont really see the point in high powered guns its a matter of doing the best and pushing the limits of what you have (eg if you find a target too easy to hit move it back instead of getting a high powered gun and shooting a longer distance)...
all just my opinion BTW. :)

I am sure this will fire someone up :rolleyes:

guns dont kill ppl, ppl kill ppl...

[[1ponders]]

Could be a provocative poll ving. I think I know what has brought it on.

While I feel very similar to you about guns ving, I certainly wouldn't miss them if they were never more. I might even jump a jig or too.

[wavelandscott]

First let me say that I voted "for" guns and also for gravy...one of my favorite food groups...but that is another thread in itself...

As for guns, my wife SWMBO is an avid shooter and owns a few guns here and a few more in the USA. She is very active in a local club (St. Ives Pistol Club) and enjoys it very much. She is a regular at local competitions and wins her share of medals/trophies at her skill level.

When done properly, I think it is a fine hobby/sport and I actively encourage her to participate. Not just because it allows me to spend money on my hobby of choice either ;)

Her Grandfather taught her to shoot as a young girl and she has been through many training sessions NRA (in the US...she is a member) but also here at her local club. While I have been trained as well I am content to let this be "her thing"...

Growing up in a rural setting and in a "hunting" culture I sometimes struggle with all of the "fear mongering" that goes on in discussions about firearms...
I think archery is an okay thing too...training, supervision and a little common sense go a long way!

[ving]

nothing to it paul, just curiousity :)
I wouldnt miss them if they ceased to exist either. but I think it'd be fun shooting at targets. :)

nine votes so far and "i like em" and "gravy" are equal. says alot about gravy if you ask me ;)

[danielsun]

Yes!! This could be a very touchy subject for some, but me personally, i dont like them. Ive had a gun and shot guns but i think they should be more for special needs like police and armed forces.
I know they say guns dont kill, people kill but it seems too easy for a nutter to get his hands on one if he/she wanted to.
I think its just too hard to control now anyway.

[matt]

As long as they're not pointing at me or anyone else, to each their own I s'pose.

I actually don't have strong feelings on this one way or t'other.:shrug:

I have fired a few handguns at gun clubs and quite enjoyed the experience. It didn't make me feel like a big man, or repulse me either. It was just fun.

Ah well. Someone will get all worked up about this topic, I'm sure.

[Mikezoom]

"It didn't make me feel like a big man, or repulse me either. It was just fun." - matt

Exactly the same here. Target shooting is great fun as long as saftey guidelines are adhered to.

Just a few weeks ago I spent all day taking photos at the "World Down the Line" Clay target World Championships and it was great fun. Just like any other social group you would meet, no macho people at all and it was great to talk to all the lady shooters. ;)

P.S: I remember having a ball when I was young and my Dad & I used to target shoot in the backyard with the ol' Air Gun. :)
Mike.B.

[ving]

...and gravy lags behind :(

thanks for the honest input pplz

[Robby]

No to guns, knives, and plastic plates... :D

[Volans]

I follow the sentiments of others who have posted. I too have fired off a few rounds using different types of guns and I will admit that I was scared after firing only one round using a decent sized calibre rifle. It was too powerful for my liking. The one I felt most comfortable with was a semi automatic 9mm Glock. Not much of a kick to it and as said by others, there was no macho or 007 feeling about it...I was just interested in finding out my ability to aim the gun at the target (plastic bottles filled with water). I now know that I'm not too bad but in all truth, I don't really care if I fire another gun in my life or not. If I want to do taget practice, I use my green laser on milk cartons set up against the retaining wall in the garden.

Peter.

[[1ponders]]

You're on Peter. I'll set one up on my roof here, your set one up on your roof at the planetarium and well see who is the first to knock the others off. Let's see a bullet go that far :lol:

[h0ughy]

I don't mind guns, they have a place. But I do mind the idiots who mishandle them or use them for murder/mame and senseless destruction. Guns don't kill, people do!

[avandonk]

When I was a young lad I used to go to Williamstown Rifle Range on the train from Eltham. I wore my school cadet army uniform and carried my Royal Enfield 303 on my shoulder with the bolt safely in the inside left pocket of my jacket. No one batted an eyelid!
I used to walk through the township with a mate when I was about fourteen on our way to shoot rabbits. I had a 22, he had a shotgun. No one again batted an eyelid.

People do use guns to kill other people.
The difference in those days was everyone knew who you were and where you were going. It is about trust.
They knew us well enough that they knew we knew what we were doing.

These days with disturbed people who go berserk with high powered weapons because they can, I am all for gun control.

A gun or rifle has only one function, that is to kill. There is no need to have them widely available in our society.

By all means join a gun club etc. if that is what you want to do. But leave all weapons where they are safe. Locked up in a safe. Or on a well run shooting range.

Bert

[anthony2302749]

Interesting discussion, I have great respected for firearms. Being ex Defence Force I am aware of the lethality of military and civilian weapons. It does not matter what caliber the rifle (I do not like the terminology “Gun”) is a .22 caliber rifle can kill equally as well as the 7.62mm SLR (the rifle used prior to the 5.56mm Steyr) in the right hands.

In away we are luck, and please think about this, that when we do have shooting the number of death are low probably due to the persons mental instability and the inability to use the weapon well. The most dangerous killer are the one who perorated the “Hoddle Street and Port Arthur Killings” these people knew how to handle their weapon of chose and handle them well.

I am for “Gun Laws” and rifle, shotguns etc should be kept in “Gun Clubs” and on “Farms” but not in the suburbs.

[Rodstar]

Martin Bryant's little effort in Tassie a few years ago put me right off guns. The potential to kill large numbers with guns is too easy and real for my comfort, as also seen in several infamous high schools massacres, caused by crazed teenagers.

However, I am not sure how you can prevent guns from getting into the hands of those who can least be trusted with them, even with the strictest laws in the world. It is a bit like abolition. Strict laws just push it underground. Education on safe use, and access to guns through strictly controlled shooting clubs may be the way to go.

We have a rule in our house that there is no play involving "guns". Our children have been taught that guns are serious and dangerous, and should not be viewed as objects of fantasy or fun. IMO children need to be taught that their sense of control over their circumstances needs to be found in areas other than by using physical force, which is what guns often represent in a child's mind. I'd rather my kids learn to use the mighty pen, than a sword.

[ballaratdragons]

I have owned 'Guns' in the past, in a wierd & violent previous life, but never used one on another human being.

From a person who purely loved to have Handguns and rifles, I believe there is no need for anyone to own such an object unless they are a fully trained and registered member of a Gun Club.

As for farmers, yes there is a definite need for firearms, but there are cases of farmers cracking their nutshell and blowing away their families or neighbour, or a fued with a rival landowner.

It's not an easy decision to come to in the country as to who can and who cannot own firearms. The city is different! City people have no need of them.

All I can say is that I am glad I got rid of all my firearms over 10 years ago.

[acropolite]

I don't like guns, as a Kid I fired an air rifle at bottles, cans, etc and it was fun, but IMO the world would be a better place without guns.

[Vermin]

I used to enjoy doing a bit of shooting on a friends farm many years ago (.22 and shotguns mostly), but have not been since the gun laws were tightened, which was/is a good thing.

[JohnG]

Guns

I wasn't going to get into this discussion because I have seen the effects that guns and the users of them can inflict on people. At the age of 18, I joined the RAN and was trained in the operation and use of most types of Military weapons of the day, I subsequently was rated and Quarter Master Gunner and posted to A class patrol boats operating in the Barrier Reef area and part of that involved boarding what were considered hostile vessels in that period, as a junior sailor, I was always given the L1A2 to handle and also carried a 9mm Browning sidearm, the day did occure when someone was shot and killed and it is something I will not forget. A bit further into the future and I was drafted to a Helicopter Squadron and became a Helicopter Gunner, the effect of firing twin M-60 machine guns and the thought of using them against people is hard to describe as a 20 year old, I was trained for a reason and that reason was to go to Vietnam, luckily we only got halfway up the coast of AU before we turned back and the war ended.

Fast track to now and I am retired after spending 30 years in the NSW Police Force, during that time I carried a sidearm every working day, during that time I drew that weapon once only. Unfortunately I had to attend more deaths than I would like to remember, caused by people with mental illnesses, deliberate murders, suicides, accidents using guns. I have also been shot at and have had the unpleasant role of having to notify people of these incidents. My primary role was in Police Rescue and as such we were the people who had to deal with firearm related incidents, I will not attempt to describe what I have seen or what happens to someone using a shotgun on themselves or another person. It is not very pleasant. I still to this day cannot get out of my mind an incident involving children playing with a firearm.

Guns/firearms, unfortunately, they are a fact of life, you won't get rid of them, in the hands of idiots, they will always be lethal.

I don't want to have anything more to do with them, I have seen enough of what they can do in the hands of idiots.

Long arms for farmers, sporting shooters etc, with appropriate security, not a problem, hand guns, thats a whole different story

My say

Lets get back to Astronomy.

JohnG

[norm]

I don't condone gun ownership unless for an absolute, justifiable reason with tight controls.

I've had a 'muck' around with several types of rifles in the past, but in all honesty, it didn't do much for me.

I had my reservations about the gun buyback scheme and I think it was a bit farcical, I mean how many criminals/pyschos are going to hand back their weapons ?

If anything gun laws should be tighter with stiffer penalties if caught possessing one unless for a valid reason.

As for gravy, you just can't beat it on any roast dinner, lamb, beef, chicken, baked potatoes, pumpkin. Soak it up with buttered bread......yummo.:P Anyone salivating ??? :rofl:

[h0ughy]

I vote that gravy be used instead of capsicum spray or guns. For the really bad ones, you can use the lumpy hard gravy, then you have your runng hot gravy, or the thick treakle like gravy to catch the crims, or the gravy with a skin for rescues from heights. or to start a car in the wet, fix a sqeaky door, level concrete floor...... the uses go on and on

[jjjnettie]

You can't keep large animals and not have a reasonably high powered rifle. Recently a friends horse severed its front foot, they had no rifle and had to wait for the vet to arrive to put him down. Can you imagine the distress of both horse and owner?
But when it comes to the suburbs and cities, there is no place there for guns. Unless they are registered and used within a Sporting Club.

[Starkler]

AFAIK , Howard wants to tighten restrictions on handguns, why ?

How many crimes are comitted with handguns belonging to registered pistol owners? Yes there are robberies and murders comitted with handguns by criminal types who will always be able to source illegal weapons on the black market. Tightening restrictions of licenced owners will have negligible effect on this.

It smells entirely political to me.

[RAJAH235]

FWIW, how about a restriction or ban on the import/manufacture of ammunition? :shrug: :D L.
ps. I include land mines in there as well....
pps. I vote for the gravy....lots of gravy...

[Intrepid]

Ok I'll post a few comments and ruffle a few feathers, this is still an issue that I have strong opinions on.

First when the great gun buyback occurred I had to hand in 3 firearms (I think that's almost the first time the correct word has been used in this thread so far) or be declared a criminal, firearms which were declared not suitable to be in my possession by the government. They were totally able to make this decision without knowing anything about me, my background, my level of common sense or intelligence, or emotional stability or whether or not I have impulse control issues or a drug or alcohol problem or anger management issues or my level of experience in handling firearms or my training in firearms safety, etc, etc.

At that time I had the choice of marching myself and some of my valued possessions, for which I had worked hard and saved long (think how much you have spent in terms of time and money with regards you scopes) along to a designated "buyback" location, to hand them over to strangers knowing that they would be destroyed. If I had gone about my day to day life as usual I would have become a criminal on a specified date due to an act of legislation.

I'll say that again ... I would have been declared a serious criminal and faced a possible mandatory jail sentence because I had done NOTHING AT ALL but live my day to day life in exactly the same way I had all my life!

Let's put this in terms that perhaps more people might be able to identify with - WAY more people get killed as a result of motor vehicles than by firearms, so let's say the government decides to severely restrict motor vehicle ownership.
Implications??
Motorbikes are banned, outright, unless you earn a living by being a stunt rider, etc - but you can only ride it in the circus big top or at specific shows. You can keep your cars, no problem ...... oh, unless it has 8 cylinders because that's way too powerful, or 6 cylinders for that matter. And if it can carry more than 4 people it's also now illegal, that's too large a capacity, and surely only certified buses and trains need to do that! Either buy a 2nd car to carry 5 people (yourself, spouse and 3 kids) or someone has to stay at home. Four wheel drives are also banned so forget trips to Fraser Island or heading bush, etc. Oh yeah, you will have to carry and show your license to buy parts, have repairs done, even to get petrol, and the details on it will be recorded in an oficial register. If the central agency decides you have been buying to much petrol expect a visit by the boys in blue, or the tactical response group maybe at 4am some dark morning.

You also can't have any engine combination in any vehicle that might possibly push it faster than 70 km/h, after all no one ever needs to go more than 70 in a city. So if you still own a 4 cylinder that goes faster than 70k and you live in any city or decent sized town you will have to have one or more cylinders permanently welded up, etc, to limit it's speed and therefore limit it's potential to kill. Thats will have to be verified by a police certified engineer too. You can collect cars and bikes, etc, thats ok if you only want to look and touch, but the engines have to be permanently and irrevocably disabled so forget ever driving any of those Ferrari's or Porsche's or Vipers or GT Falcons, etc - great collection that, where not one single item in it can EVER perform it's one intended function ever again.

Likewise any speedboats, fishing boats, power cruisers, jetskis, etc ... all outlawed. You can have a tinny up to 15 feet length with no more than a 10 horse outboard on it. Any sailboat thats too big or too fast is gone too, forget the Sydney to Hobart race, etc.

If you live in a country area you can have a bigger faster car or a 4WD as long as you can show that you need it for getting around your large farm. You are still limited but in soem cases you may still manage to own a reasonable vehicle. And if you DON'T hand in newly outlawed car or motorbike you will face hefty fines or jail, and be labelled a criminal, which could affect your chances of employment, getting a loan from some financial institutions, your family may be affected by your new found social status, etc, etc.

No this is not nonsense, this is in fact a very good analogy of what happened during the firearm legislation changes brought about by Martin Bryant and the Port Arthur tragedy.

I have been shooting targets, and hunting in various forms, for many many years, before that I had an air rifle I used to shoot in our very large back yard, at targets propped inside a large concrete and rock bbq, which was backed by the rear end of a large double garage (mind you no pellet ever strayed past the confines of the bbq. There has never been an "accidantal" discharge on any trip I have been on, no one has ever been hurt, no "collateral damage" such as farmers livestock or pets or unintended animals or birds or other wildlife has ever occurred.

I was trained in how to SAFELY handle firearms before I was ever allowed to even touch my brothers air rifle, let alone use it. I have always been picky about who I do and do not go hunting with. I abhor people who are careless or casual or dangerous anywhere near any kind of potentially dangerous implement, be it a firearm or a spiked club or a kitchen knife, they all kill quite well.

What we have now if a lot of law abiding people who have not only had to relinquish personal possessions but also spend additional money to have gun safes installed in their homes, etc, in case SOME ONE ELSE (ie a REAL criminal) breaks in and could potentially steal their firearms. These same law abiding firearm owners must now also submit to police entering their premises for mandatory checks of any firearms they may still be allowed to own, how and where they are stored, etc. The threat of heavy fines, etc, still exists should it be decided that your particular storage cabinet / safe is not solid or heavy enough as well as immediate confiscation of any such property.

How many people reading would feel concerned by the idea of police having the right to enter and inspect your premises, and unlike criminals you do not even have the "protection" of simple civil rights whereby the police first need to show "reasonable cause" to obtain a warrant to search your home.

Was a change in legislation needed - absolutely, yes!

Was it done in a way that would inhibit criminal activities, or detect mentally unstable and imbalanced individuals, or better protect the public??
Not at all.

When the legislation changed how many ACTUAL criminals lined up, filled out the forms, registered themselves, obtained a firearms license???
None at all, of course!

How many of them handed in rifles or shotguns or pistols or crossbows or paintball guns or slingshots or throwing knives or blowpipes or air rifles?? (ALL of these are now "projectile weapons" under the limits if the firearm legislation)
None at all.

Did the data compiled nationwide 2-3 years after the stricter legislation was introduced show any reduction in firearm related crimes such as armed robbery, assault with a deadly weapon, or even murder?

None at all.

[johnno]

I dont mind guns,at all,
In fact as a younger man,I quite enjoyed target shooting,at Shows,etc.

As has been said,it is not the gun,that is the problem,it is the type of people using them.

I am well aware of the Terrible things,that has been done,with Maniacs with guns,But Banning guns,WILL NOT STOP,these people from causing Terrible carnage.

IF,absolutely NO GUNS,were available,would this stop people like Martin Bryant,etc,etc.

I dont think so.

They would simply find another Medium,to serve their ends,like petrol,or baseball bats,Fire,water etc,so do we ban them too??,
Again
I dont think so.

An old friend of mine asked me many years ago,when gun control first started,and I said "That might not be a bad thing"

He Said,have you ever read the book of Marx,
I replied NO.

He then told me one of Marx's statements in the book was:

To Take over and control a country."First disarm the people"

Food for thought.

Regards.
John

[Jonathan]

I'm a licensed gun owner and have been for the last 5 years or so, I also have a current SA hunting permit. I own 2 rifles - a .22LR and a .270WIN, they live in a safe and my ammo is hidden and locked up seperatly. They aren't going to be stolen easily. I don't do much shooting but when I do I only use my rifles for hunting feral animals (goats, rabbits & foxes) and kangaroos in over populated areas. All the animals I kill are pests and nearly all of them are kept for their meat.

One problem with talking about guns is that most poeple don't have a clue about what's involved in getting trained and licenced to own one, and all the rules and regulations that go with it. It's not an easy task anymore. Getting a licence involves police paper work, a TAFE course, and theory and practical tests. There's also waiting periods for getting the licence and when buying a gun. It's impossible to go and get a licence and a gun in less than 2 months, it took me over 3 months just to get my licence and 6 weeks for my first rifle. Licenced gun owners go through this long and difficult procedure to use their guns for hunting and target shooting, not for criminal activities.

Another problem is the so called "uniform gun laws" in Australia. I understand they are not uniform throughout all the states. There are loop holes and inconsistancies in them.

The current laws are still very strict but it's only hurt the responsible, licenced owners and hasn't stopped the illegal guns and the crimes commited with them. The buyback was a joke. I know of one person that was given $28 for a semi auto .22, I know of another person that got a few hundred for a Beretta pump action shot gun that cost $5k. And there's plenty of others out there that never handed them back, and I don't blame them.

Another stupid thing with the current laws is that I can buy a lever action shot gun and not a pump action, but I can buy a pump action high power rifle.

Licenced gun owners with registered firearms aren't a problem.

[Portmac]

I have nothing against guns at all.

Guns dont kill people....People kill People

[OneOfOne]

My uncle used to have a farm, 30 years ago, and had a gun as expected. His wife snuck out one night...say no more.

One of my cousins had several guns, all locked up and used to win competitions so it was properly locked etc. One day while at work, his flatmate must have found the key...say no more.

Guns may not kill people, but people who don't have guns don't shoot anyone! Nuclear bombs don't kill people either, only people who press buttons, so lets all get missiles for protection and ban buttons!

I have my laser registered and placed in a box with my scope and that's the limit of my "dangerous weapons" (everyone thinks it is so funny when I say I have to have my laser registered). My 8 inch "bazooka" does it for me.

[dennislowe]

I am a licenced firearm user. I shoot only paper and steel targets. The firearms I use are registered and specilised. I know firearms can kill, I was an infantry soldier for six years and served in vietnam. It is illegal firearms and the type of people that use them that is the problem that needs to be addressed.
I have a number of items in my house that are just as capable of killing someone as my firearms are, all of which I do not have to register with the police: eg Chainsaw, Kitchen knives, golf clubs. The list could go on. As always, because of a the crinimal element in our society, some minority group or other has to suffer. I am all for tight laws but not total withdrawal of firearms. It is my sport and gives me a great deal of enjoyment and satisfaction.
Dennis.

[De-Gen]

i have been asking my parents to buy me a BB gun or airsoft but they are not legal in Australia. I don't have interest in real guns because they kill people but even toy guns which resemble like a real gun is banned.

[Rodstar]

Anyone remember the old song about, "wanting gravy on my mashed potato..."??

Methinks that was talking about a different sort of gravy, though.:whistle:

[asimov]

Firearms have been in our family for generations. I don't own any these days, but used to have quite a numerous collection. I was a fox shooter to earn a living at one stage. I'm a welder now so I simply have no further use for firearms.

[Lester]

Perhaps the people that say get rid of guns should also think about getting rid of cars, trucks, motorbikes, aircraft, swimming pools,tall buildings,trees,pharmercuticals, and any thing else that has killed any one.

The truth is that we are not in a perfect world yet, but its comming.

I am a farmer and use a gun occassionally when I have to.

[asimov]

Better put telescopes on that list Lester! One could feasibly have a nasty accident by sconning oneself on the mount or something..

[beren]

When i was growing up in Queensland I had a air rifle which I enjoyed , remember back then i could walk into Kmart of all places and buy pellets. Now I have mixed feelings about firearm ownership. I'll never forget the images from the services after Port Arthur.The reforms and regulations enforced by the government I support , it may be a irritant for responsible firearm users but frankly that's the price you have to pay for the privilege. This argument that cars , baseball bats etc have all the same capacity to kill like a firearm is senseless .The prime function of a gun is to kill or be a lethal deterrent with short or long range capability.For people who enjoy target shooting at clubs and are responsible owners and do the right thing I do have some idea what they feel about the controls governing there hobby . Being a recreational 4WDriver many areas I venture out to are being closed off due to a few reckless users .The responsible 4WD community suffers while those who disregard signs etc no doubt continue. Perpetrates of crime are always going to have access to firearms to varying degree but least hopefully government regulations will prevent us going down the same path as Americas position where it seems firearm ownership is regarded as a right rather then a privilege.

[mickoking]

Guns are neither evil or good, people are.

The problem lies not with Guns but with people. Most gun owners are good people but these good people are restricted coz of homosidial maniacs that use guns to kill people, sucks hey. But then again we could have liberal gun laws like in the US and we all know the big problems they have there.

[sheeny]

I voted for guns but I'm not passionate about it.

I grew up with guns, and got into smallbore rifle competition during my teens. My brother was into pistol competition, and we both had a play on the black powder club. All good sport, good lessons and good experience.

I haven't had a gun since I was 18 when I left home. It was about this time that the earliest licencing started and it was simply too hard to mess about with guns living in the city for 6 months of the years and moving out to the country for the other six months (I did my engineering degree by a sandwich course).

No doubt guns need to be controlled, secure and handled sensibly.

I'm not in favour of disarming the populous... it just means that the onlympeople with guns will be the military, the Police and crooks - because they will still have them!

I have spent the last 20 years or so in rescue, and like JohnG have seen the results of gun abuse. It is not to be taken lightly.

They have their place, it's a matter of keeping them there!

Al.

[cahullian]

I have never owned or used a gun in my life but I have no problem with people owning them. Growing up in Belfast in the 70's and 80's I saw first hand what guns can do in the hands of idiots and very nasty people. I think taking guns away from decent law abiding citizens just gives the crims the upper hand.

[ving]

despite the fact that crims use guns on the helpless, I'd not use a gun in self defence... It'd just put me in the same box as the said crim...

[fringe_dweller]

People are using guns more than they ever did!!...
Guns should be kept were they appear in their billions and most gorily used .... in the playstation/xbox/puter and the movies :P hehe

[ving]

update....

gravy is still coming last!!!! :eek:

[rmcpb]

I have a question, if we restrict guns/rifles/pistols because they are "dangerous" why don't we restrict cars/trucks? They are really dangerous and kill more people in Australia yearly and are involved in more crimes than firearms. Something to think about.

Answer, its easier to hit a small group of people politically than the majority. Cars are just as dangerous as firearms in the wrong hands and they are more common.

[Jonathan]

I agree Rob. I'm far more worried about being injured or killed in a car accident than being shot with a gun. I can think of at least half a dozen people I know that have been injured in car and motorbike accidents, but I can't think of anyone I know that's been hurt with a gun.

[Omaroo]

Well, we have a farm property on the Murrumbidgee River in southern NSW. We have a big problem most years when wild pigs come down from the higher snowies to our place which is relatively low at 1,000m. The love it along our river bank and destroy huge sections of it while rooting around for food.

Have you ever come up on a huge sow or boar that has piglets and accidently surprised them? I don't have a gun - but the time I did this I certainly wish I had.

Having a good rifle would be handy on the property, but I don't see any real use for them anywhere else - apart from the military, police, armed guards and gun clubs.

Cheers
Chris

[ausastronomer]

Well I am on the other side of the fence.

I own 6 Guns, which are properly stored in an approved security safe. I have had several inspections by the police to inspect my licenses, my guns, my ammunition storage and gun storage to make sure it is compliant and everything is in order.

I have been an avid target shooter for over 30 years. Back in the late 1970's and early 1980's I was a casual professional fox shooter when the price of fox pelts was at a premium and I was a lot younger and fitter. I haven't shot at anything other than a paper target since 1985, as I have changed my philosphy and now feel somewhat remorsefull in regard to killing small defenseless animals. I will never hunt again, I will only ever shoot paper targets.

To be a successful target shooter at the top level is as much a science as astronomy. I have custom built two of my target rifles and have handloaded my own ammunition for the entire 32 years I have been shooting.

Things to consider:-

* machining tolerances to within a thousandth of an inch in the rifle, including the barrell, the action and the stock.
* a high quality optical sight aligned to within fractions of a degree
* a carefully calculated bullet loading that takes account of innumerable factors including projectile weight and shape, burning rate of the powder and capacity of the case and ambient temperature.
* wind speed and direction
* projectile drift in regard to the wind speed and theoretical bullet performance based on the loading and the target's range.
* bullet drop based on the range and elevation of the target and the shooter and the altitude of both.

There is a bit more to be good at it than just buying a rifle putting a few slugs in the magazine and pulling the trigger. Although there are plenty around that think that's the case.

It is my recreational sport of choice. Why should I be deprived of my sport of choice because of the senseless and irrational few? Should we pull the several million cars off the road in Australia and make everyone walk to work because of the few hundred ratbags on the roads that kill and seriously injure thousands of Australians every year?

The legal guns in Australia are not what cause human injuries or fatalaties, it is the illegal fireams that end up in the wrong hands that are misused. That will continue to happen irrespective of what laws exist.

CS-John B

[Ric]

I have never owned or fired a gun nor have I ever had a desire to but that's me.

I have no problem with people using them in a sporting capability, it actually looks like a very scientific sport what with wind speeds, angles and the like.

I suppose like everyone else, it's guns in the hands of nutters and crims that I have the problem with.

Cheers

[Outbackmanyep]

About the terrible incident that happened at Port Arthur would turn most people off guns, but they have to remember that the rifle he (Bryant) used was HANDED IN to victorian police for destruction and sold out the back door....so who's the nutters here??
If anything, responsible gun ownership has taught me from my childhhood through to now to respect firearms and respect others and obey the laws, otherwise i lose that privilage.
The day the government tries to turn me into a criminal through no fault of my own and turn every responsible person that owned a gun into a criminal by outlawing them will lose my vote and my respect for higher authority.

[GrahamL]

Well working in a rural industry I used to handle and use firearms regularly
Since the buyback and legislative changes I havn't touched one in years .
The hoops and fences to jump over made the whole exersise way to
much trouble for me to bother.

I always believed though the ease that ANYONE could obtain assault rifles
shotguns and as much amo as you wanted with little or no valid
reason for doing so was plain stupid and as such the buyback should of also included useless politicions as well :P

Gravy please

[Outbackmanyep]

Thats exactly how the government wanted it!
They did the same thing with Air Conditioning licences recently, for me to service automotive air conditioning i had to go through heaps of paperwork and BS to obtain a new "FEDERAL" Air Con licence to buy and handle Refrigerant and service A/C systems for automotive purposes, those that found it too hard don't do A/C anymore.
R134a is a "greenhouse" gas, in 1994 when new vehicles came out with R134a it was the "Ozone Friendly" gas to replace R12.
Now the Govt. says its an ozone depleting substance!????:screwy:
The Federal Govt. took control over it from the state govts, i still need a state licence even though its useless now...another :screwy:
Would you believe that through all this, that there is nothing to stop people from using LPG in their air con systems!!!
Thats how out-of-touch they are with the industry!!

[ving]

way to bump an old thread chris! :P

[Omaroo]

hehe.. bring back the excitement David :D

[radu5er]

Gravy?? I thought it said Gravity...darn bifocals...

[KG8]

Here is an interesting statistic. You could almost laugh at it, if it wasn't true.


In the 20th Century:

Governments murdered four times as many civilians as were killed in all the international and domestic wars combined.
Governments murdered millions more people than were killed by common criminals.How could governments kill so many people? The governments had the power - and the people, the victims, were unable to resist. The victims were unarmed.
http://www.jpfo.org/deathgc.htm

[Louwai]

On average, China executes more people per year than the rest of the world combined.
And they don't waste money on keeping criminals in jail.
When I lived there, 2 guys were caught breaking into an ancient tomb. They were caught at 7am on a Thursday & by midday Friday they were no more......

[timelord]

I have been a firearm owner for 32 years and participate in shooting competitions every month at least twice, as do many thousands of people here in Oz and around the world.After all it is still an Olympic and Commonwealth sport. I also hunt on a regular basis and as soon as my 2 children reached the age of 12 they aquired their junior shooting licencses and togeather we have enjoyed many hours of sport,--yes it is a sport like any other you care to mention football cricket netball etc. It also is a very safe sport with very few injuries compared to others.
I consider myself and children to be responsible and skilled sports men and women--yes one of my kids is female-- and to be frowned upon because our sporting equipment is a firearm rather than a cricket bat, football or tennis raquet is unreasonable.

[GeoffW1]

Hi,

I think JohnG put his finger right on it in general, and I suspect that those like me, who have shot a few rounds here and there under supervision and restricted conditions, can't really make an informed judgement knowing all the possible outcomes.

Heck, how many of us can say we have been shot at with intent to harm? Wouldn't THAT change your views pretty quick?

I'm in favour of police being armed, but for the general public, strict regulations on purchase and possession, pistols especially.

As for the saying, "guns don't kill, people do", it is quite true that a gun laying there by itself is pretty safe until picked up, but that is missing the point by a wide margin. It is the COMBINATION which kills, not just one or the other. We can't legislate to abolish people, but you can restrict semi-automatic weapons and pistols. Has to be full-on though, not half-hearted.

Cheers

[casstony]

I'd like to add one point to this discussion; in a similar way that we can be struck by physical illness, we are all vulnerable to suffering from a mental illness at some point in our lives. A gun offers a convenient option to take your own life or for a family member to take theirs. You may not even be aware of a family members problem until it's too late.

[KG8]

A good point Tony' Much better to use a gun than to jump in front of a train or drive your car into a concrete wall. I know a train driver and suicides have a devistating effect of them, not to mention the poor passengers and the interruption to rail services.

[casstony]

The point I was trying to make in my previous post is that the gun makes it too easy to take a life. Without access to a gun a person suffering from depression, for example, has a greater chance of surviving a suicidal period in their life rather than taking the easy option and ending it.

[KG8]

Ok, my mistake there Tony. Thing is it's a common misconception that guns are used a lot in suicide but in fact they are rarely used. The preferred methods are-

hanging (including strangulation and suffocation) which was used in half (51%) of all suicide deaths. Poisoning by drugs was used in 12% and poisoning by other methods (including by motor vehicle exhaust) was used in 16% of suicide deaths. Methods using firearms accounted for 7% of suicide deaths. The remaining group (Other) comprised 14% of suicide deaths and included deaths from drowning, jumping from a high place, and other methods. Suicide deaths using firearms have more than halved over the last ten years, from 389 deaths in 1995, to 147 deaths in 2005. See Table 5 for data on broad groupings of method of suicide http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/mf/3309.0/

It's true that shooting yourself in the head has dropped in favor from 14% to 7% over the last 10 years or so but it's obvious from the data that banning rope would have a much greater effect on lowering the suicide rate.


Another common missconception is that gun crime was lowered after Howard's regulations came into being, but the statistics show otherwise. Gun crime has gone way up. I guess it's because only the crims can get around with them now and that makes unarmed home owners easy prey. I think the worst aspect of it all though is the explosion of feral animals across the nation. Your 3 times more likely to hit a roo on your way out to the astro camp now, the feral cats are killing off all the little indigenous species and packs of feral dogs are breeding up and encroaching on the outer suburbs of capital cities. BTW, if you ever see a pack of feral dogs steer well clear. They are like a pack of wolves and will tear you to shreads.

[OneOfOne]

Just my quick few cents worth.

Personally I am against guns, however, I can see that some people have a real need for them (farmers are the obvious) and so I disagree with banning them. Some people have a valid use, target shooting etc. Most people have no need for them and so it should be VERY difficult for people to obtain them without good reason, those found with illegal guns or diagnosed with psychotic problems should have them removed and punished if necessary. As for the "sport" of shooting defenceless ducks, elephants, tigers etc for no reason other than the "pleasure", they should only be allowed to shoot animals if the animals are also allowed to carry weapons! I don't have a problem with shooting feral animals (cats, dogs, buffalo and also including feral horses).

However, the old argument that "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is one of the weakest arguments anyone could ever present. The logical extension of this argument is "nuclear weapons don't kill people" and therefore any country that wishes to have nuclear weapons should be allowed to do so! This is, of course, a rubbish argument. If you want to present an argument FOR guns, you need something better than this.

[Alchemy]

It seems everyones afraid of other people having guns.that says a lot about our society.

[Odlaw]

The only thing the gun laws have done is take the higher power gun off of the honest law abiding citizens.

The illegal guns out there are still being held and used by the criminals.

[casstony]

KG8, I grabbed this from an American government website: "In 2001, 55% of suicides were committed with a firearm (Anderson and Smith 2003)." The ease of committing suicide with a gun makes it a prime candidate, if it is available.

With regard to wild dogs, my father worked alone in the bush for much of his life and occasionally saw dog packs, but they were always timid and would quickly disappear. I suppose they might be more aggressive bordering major cities if dumping of more aggressive breeds is common.

[GTB_an_Owl]

i half remember a story from the US that went along the lines that everyone in the town/county had at least one firearm registered to them in the house

the crime rate in the county was almost ZERO

was talking to my nephew the last time he was over to visit and he said that it used to be that if you shot someone over there you had to make sure they fell inside the house - now you can shoot them anywhere on the property and not worry about where they fall

geoff

[casstony]

In protecting ourselves from the enemy at the gates, we must not overlook the enemy from within. Perhaps something less lethal might be effective against an intruder while avoiding the risk of firearm assisted suicide. Capsicum spray would probably be a very unattractive method of suicide.

[KG8]

I saw those gun stats from america tony but in all fairness we can't compare America with australia. We could just as easily be like switzerland where the rate is 25%, and there every house has an automatic weapon in it. But were not swiss either, were aussies! http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html
The reality is we were doing fine with the old system and changing it has only made things worse. Those dogs for example, they kill 30% of all the sheep bred in Australia now. 30%! In the old days every dad and his son was out shooting and packs of dogs never had a chance. Now there are too many rules and no one bothers. It's a real problem Tony, discussed here in the palament.

http://www.parliament.wa.gov.au/hansard/hans35.nsf/edf12eb560968afa48256c460024a927/0ab151cb083f91be48257090001cdcb3?Op enDocument&Date=2005-09-14

I draw the attention of the house to the numerous press releases and articles about how wild dogs are causing damage to the sheep industry. That damage is quite severe in some places. Some farmers who had 24 000 or 25 000 head of sheep now have a flock of only 1 000 or 2 000. There is a natural attrition rate. I am the first to accept that an attrition rate of between two and three per cent a year is quite normal if a farmer is not replacing stock. However, there has been a massive attrition rate over the past 10 years.

[casstony]

Well, it's been a long stretch of serious thought for me, so in the interest of maintaining our mental health here's my next contribution to the thread: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgJNnO3xrIc&mode=related&search=

[Adrian-H]

I just have this to say, firearms dont kill, people kill.

though personally i believe firearm's are one of the most poor examples of human technology, ever created, product of the devil, just think about why they where created, and what for, and then youll know why i believe this.

[Neil]

g,day all, i,m new at this so go easy. i have nt read all the comments on guns but being a long time licenced shooter andover 50,i find the restraints put on legitimate hunters of feral pest to be a great contributor to are current problems of conservation of our native fauna. but whats all this got to do with astronomy?

[ving]

dont forget folks, this thread (although really old now) was never meant to be about gun laws, just guns. :)

hiya neil :) the only post you need read in this thread is the first anyhow. I was just after people oppinions of guns :)
thanks for posting :)

[Ric]

And GRAVY !!!!!

[ving]

oh yeah, and gravy. thanks for that ;)

[wasyoungonce]

Ex Military...so I can say that gun control is paramount especially high powered weapons, hand guns and auto/semi-auto weapons...not withstanding munitions control.

I've seen the damage a high powered weapon can do..it's not pleasant..they are designed to kill (all weapons...although not low powered target rifles).

They have to be kept away from the general public..there are exceptions ..farmers etc but the laws are not tight enough.

We do not want to end up like American card carrying NRA clones where the well armed Militia has a right to bear arms...that just Bull &%it. In fact I believe the NRA is funding Australian gun lobbies...aka good old Smith & Wesson style.

[Sharnbrook]

As an active competitive target shooter for over 50 years, a competitor at State, National and International level for 38 years, and a firearms owner for about 45 yrs, I can honestly say that I have NEVER witnessed a firearms related accident on or off a rifle range. I have known of 2 people killed in vehicle accidents on the way to a range, but then cars are not under consideration for banning are they?

I would think that there may probably be as many firearms in Qld as there are cars, (there certainly used to be anyway), but so far this year, just in Qld, there is a vehicle related death rate of approximately 1 per day. Smoking related deaths are almost certainly in excess of this, but buying cigarettes is still OK, and you can kill others too whilst enjoying a smoke. Is this logical?

Target shooting, as other Forum Members have pointed out, involves high precision, mental attitude and aptitude, concentration, skill and self control. Most sports are like this to some degree, but then most sports are in fact far more dangerous. Surfing, football of various codes, boxing, motor racing, even cricket. The papers are full of injuries being caused to team members, drowning, broken limbs, severe concussion, spinal injuries, etc etc. Did anyone ever hear of a shooter being seriously injured? There have been one or two that I can recall in the past 25 yrs, but these were generally freak accidents, rather than avoidable accidents. The reason for this is that shooting, because is potentially dangerous, it is very very strictly controlled. If anyone really believes that all firearms should be banned, because "they are dangerous", I would suggest they visit an NRAA rifle range, and see for themselves how strictly controlled it is, and why therefore it is one of the safest sports conducted in this and many other countries.

On a final note, I believe that firearms licensing is imperative, and I also believe that if anyone loses a firearm through negligence, they should be prosecuted, with a heavy fine, and/or a custodial sentence being imposed. Owning a firearm is a priviledge, not a right. Abusing a priviledge, is the best way of losing it.

[wasyoungonce]

But how can the general public safely secure weapons and ammunition at their homes? America has shown this to be impossible.

Sharnbrook, you mentioned that you have known 2 people involved with vehicle accidents and none with firearms. But that could be because the number of vehicle owners and drivers is vastly more in proportion wrt firearm users.

Consider if every driver had a weapon and carried it with them for a few hours a day..and of course practised safe weapons handling aka clearing of weapons on entry to buildings blah blah ....

I suspect the incidence of firearms accidents would multiply vastly..

Even the military has UD's..I had a UD by another airman (thankfully blanks but a full auto burst) 2 feet from my face in the dark once....scared the Be-jesus out of me:mad2:

If the pro's cannot get it right the public should be restricted...remember guns are essentially designed to kill.

The exceptions are there but they are few.

[Sharnbrook]

What I actually said was that I have known of 2 people killed in vehicle accidents on the way to a range. Therefore there is a direct relationship to gun owners and drivers. I have known of dozens of people severely injured or killed on the roads, and that's not just a figure of speech.

If I may make another point. Whilst all right minded people are appalled and sickened by senseless killings such as Port Arthur, St Columbines, Dunblane etc etc, it never ceases to amaze me that for a very large section of our society, computer games that involve mass destruction and the death of all the "opposition" have become a way of life. So much of what is watched on tv is extreme violence, and all in the name of entertainment!! What is entertaining about killing? Is it any wonder that some people "lose it", and go off the rails? In my opinion, I can only believe that those who commit these atrocities have an uncontrolable latent mental condition, and are therefore clinically mad at the time of their actions. However, would they be tipped over the edge if the seeds had not been sown by such a mainstream source of what masquerades as entertainment? I suspect not, but then I'm not a psychologist.

[CoombellKid]

I dont have a problem with guns either, I do in the cities. But out here
in the bush you have a range of problems that need the use of a gun.

It's unfortunate but that the majority are generally stereo-typed by a
small minority

regards,CS

[wasyoungonce]

ahhh... I didn't want to be insensitive but what I was trying to purvey was that cars were supposedly designed for transport whilst guns were designed for ...well you know!

As for violence on TV..I totally agree..It de-sensitises people’s emotions and attitudes to violence.