What are we turning into?

[sjastro]

Since algebra is evidently "too difficult" for the average person some bright spark in the States suggests that maths should no longer be a mandatory subject in Schools.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/opinion/sunday/is-algebra-necessary.html?_r=2&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20120729

The next logical step is to ban education all together.:mad2:

Regards

Steven

[Astro_Bot]

From the article:

There you go then. ;)

[tlgerdes]

I sort of understand where the writer is coming from, do you need Algebra and Calculus to function proficiently at university? For science based academia yes, but for a lot of others sectors no.

Remember though, that the US needs more short order cooks and wait staff as well, and someone has to be able to take the fries out from the fryer too.;)

What other way could we successfully achieve a more level playing field, without spending more money, in the worlds economy than to dumb down the smart ones? It is too expensive to lift the world to our level.:question:

[Astro_Bot]

Perhaps the curiculum has been watered down too much already, but as I recall, algebra started in Year 7 and Calculus in Year 8. Much of the more advanced materiel in Years 9-12 (including sciences) needs algebra and calculus as a foundation.

And what if a student is "streamed" so as not to study algebra/calculus but then decides that maths, science, economics, or medicine (and a few other courses of study) is the path they want to pursue at University?

Oh, and one of the heaviest users of algebra/calculus? The finance industry. Maybe be if they were a little better at it, we wouldn't have as many problems ...

I my school days, there was a stream called "maths for school leavers" aimed at practical skills - but even that relied on at least some algebra and calculus as a foundation, even if it wasn't expanded on any further. But the students who took that course ... well, they certainly weren't going to set the world on fire. ;)

[traveller]

Why stop at algebra, how about English as well, esp the (mis) interpretation of that (in) famous second amendment to the US Constitution?
But one thing is assured, the US wont ban guns...

[Poita]

Actually, algebraic thinking has been added to the curriculum and as started to be taught as early as kindergarten. I just did my training in it as a K-6 teacher.

'Real' algebra happens well before high school, my girls started it for real in year 5, and my other girl in year 1 is doing early 'pre-algebraic' work now.


The curriculum has not been watered down at all, this is a common misconception, there is way, way more in the curriculum than when I went to school in the 70s and 80s.

All curriculum documents are available to anyone that wants to take a look.

http://boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/syllabus-draft-k10/version-2.html

-Peter

[bojan]

The movie "Idiocracy" describes our future in fine detail.
Luckily, in China they are not doing this (yet).. so there is some hope for human race after all... maybe. Unless they turn into commerce (or chaos) like some others did.

[Astro_Bot]

I started "algabraeic" study in around Year 2, but that was in England. Then I came to Aus - what a difference! It was like going back in time. Back then the Australian school system was lacking, IMHO. I remember (as it was quite a shock) asking my teacher if I'd been put in the "special" class by mistake!

It's good to hear that it has improved!

[Poita]

Yes, Idiocracy scared the hell out of me. Worth a watch though.

But before anyone panics, take a look at the actual curriculum that is being implemented here:

http://boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/syllabus-draft-k10/version-2.html

This is based on the new Australian curriculum that is coming into effect.

If we just take what is in the media as gospel, then, well idiocracy here we come.
Anyone who is concerned about the education system, have a read of the actual curriculum and see what you think. There is so much misinformation around at the moment.

[Dave2042]

As a finance person (Physics & Pure Maths at uni) I can tell you that almost no one in non-academic finance ever uses algebra. You only ever use a spreadsheet to calculate the answer in a particular case, and if want a different case you change the spreadsheet.

I use algebra quite often. Mostly to ensure I understand something fully, but on occasion to demonstrate to colleagues and risk managers that a particular outcome is guaranteed in all cases, or that a particular effect is reliably in a certain direction. The reaction is generally amazement that such a thing is possible.

As for calculus, even rarer.

And I agree that this is a big contributing reason for our problems since 2007.

[Colin_Fraser]

Nothing at all wrong with learning algebra - even if you will seldom or never use it.
It exercises the brain and teaches how to solve problems using simple logic.

[rally]

I think Poita is on the money here, illustrating that the System is at least attempting to do something about the fact that many in the population simply "do not get" algebra. So it appears that algebraic reasoning is being introduced at a very early stage in children's lives so that their brain hard wiring includes this sort of reasoning and abstraction into their thinking processes and development.

The writer is not suggesting that Maths be removed from the curriculum at all ! Only that algebra for some be substituted for other maths study

He is suggesting that for those whose powers of reasoning have somehow failed to provide them with an understanding behind the basic concept of algebra and hence often fail at Maths overall, that they should be offered some other form of more socially relevant mathematics curriculum alternative to allow their continuing and further inclusion !

He makes the point that many people who fundamentally cannot understand algebra should not be just allowed to fail them of further academic opportunity just because of it and that many university entry requirements will preclude them from many other unrelated disciplines, where algebra is not needed and that this problem should be changed.

So he is not suggesting a dumbing down at all - at least the way I read it - rather he is suggesting that the academics/educational administrators/thinktanks should realise that the existing systems are causing a dumbing down by and that it could be changed.

Pretty obviously we dont live in a world we we need to 95% or even 20% of the population having university level mathematics ability, so not everyone needs algebraic skills.
That is not to say that everyone shouldn't first have a go at it and at least be challenged with it for a while - and I agree that would be a stupid tragedy, but that isnt what was said.

Rally

[Zhou]

If you don't learn algebra you can't learn calculus and calculus is the rock 'n' roll of mathematics :P

Even though not everone will use algebra when they leave school a good grounding in the subject gives one a well balanced education. Moreover, if someone is literate in algebra there will be times where the skill of mathematical manipulation will come in handy.

The same goes for physics. Even if someone's field of study at university, for example, has nothing to do with physics (American history, Chinese literature, Masters degree in basket weaving etc.) the problem solving skills learned in a first year physics course is a valuable tool for other academic pursuits.

There is also the matter of many countries being ahead of Australia in mathematical education. At my school where we teach (mainly) expatriate Taiwanese and Korean students, their intuative knowledge of algebra, even in grade six, is well ahead of Australian students at the equivelent grade. Even though I am critical of East Asian teaching techniques (rote learning simply to pass exams), maths is one area they do excel in and one in which Australia can perhaps improve.

Easier said than done :thumbsup:

[sjastro]

As much as I am not a subscriber to reading in between the lines, when the author started making comparisons on the failure rates of maths and other subjects, my first thought was why make such comparisons?

It makes sense when the article is read with the US "No Child Left Behind Act" in mind. This act states that US public schools that continually under perform academically will have their funding reduced and can even be shut down. (Does Australia have anything as draconian?).

It's easier to get rid of the more difficult subjects that lower the averages instead of trying to improve the education system itself.;)

Regards

Steven

[silv]

yup.
from Steven's and Rally's opinion we can draw the line onwards:

towards an even more elitist oriented mankind than blue-blood or money-based education hatched, before.

physical ability (grasping the calculus is just that: a physical ability of the brain) will be the fascist prime selection criteria. :D

and - if you look at it coldly from nature's evaluational point of view - that's not a bad criteria at all.
presumably more successful than blue blood or money as selection criteria.

You guys probably all know the movie Gattaca. So, something like that.
The people who can invent computer stuff and run the finance of the world(s) - they will be alpha.

Me personally, I will be a Beta- human or maybe a Gamma-plus-human in that society.
(I have the handicap of being female, hence the "Gamma" assumption as measured from our current male dominated society ...with the "plus" of being quite intelligent for a female as measured by the current values which make up our understanding of intelligence. of course, this also might change. who knows.)

I don't even really know how to translate the term "calculus" into German maths as taught in grammar school. and I probably didn't understand it, anyway, back then.

Selection has to happen, somehow.
Why not by making it appear as a present to those who will eventually suffer from it. Makes the bitter taste go away, aye.

[jenchris]

I've been competing with men at their level all my life - two brothers made sure of that.
They even got private education and I didn't!
However that's not the prime here.
Algebra is a function of logic and understanding and if the US wants to dumb down their education,then we can only benefit.

[bojan]

In my view its about equal opportunity here - While private schools will always provide the necessary basics for further education (including algebra), the public sector, which depends on government money will not.
This may eventually lead to elitism based on money and background ("blue blood"... ) while the nation as a whole will be impoverished for all those talents that simply didn't have the opportunity to develop (because there was not enough money in family to pay for private education). And, once you are above the certain age, the (bad) working habits are already established and it's much harder (if at all possible) to get back on track.
Perhaps I am expressing a bit "leftist" view here (all my education was obtained overseas, and whatever I achieved may have not been possible if was born in Australia for example), but in my life I have seen both sides of that coin.
You just have to look at the number of high trained people in Australian companies for example and compare their educational background (geographically and culturally) to come to the obvious conclusions.

[sjastro]

Scientific American response to the article.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/07/30/abandoning-algebra-is-not-the-answer/

Regards

Steven

[Zaps]

Everyone in the States wants to be an MBA, an attorney, or a celebrity. Or all of those things.

[bojan]

Here in Australia, the same.
You should only see the interviews with students after successful passing of VCE exam:
"What course are you going to enrol on the uni?"
"Law or medicine..." (what a range of "interest".. :eyepop:".. but only if we exclude the money from equation)

[jenchris]

My nephew went for Dentistry because it was a highly lucrative career - then dropped out because it was too boring (and icky) -ended up doing IT successfully, he earns very well now.

I guess the degree isn't as important though as the way you approach learning.

As Bojan says, by the time you've done year 12, your bad habits are very hard to discard.

[Colin_Fraser]

:lol: Should have done more extractions for a bit of variation


The good learning habits are even harder to discard

[bojan]

But first, you have to acquire them somehow, somewhere..

[Colin_Fraser]

You certainly do.

Somehow? Not so easy for some because you cannot be forced to learn.
However, if you want to learn, you will.
Parents, siblings, schools, libraries, Internet, friends and the media. They are all good sources.

[bojan]

Well, I am an old school, and of course I disagree with the above.
Most often kids don't know what's good for them.
"Forcing", however doesn't imply a brute force - but it does imply teacher's skill to make students want to learn. And good supportive environment (school) that keeps that will well and alive.


Agree.. I was like that, and still am. To some extent thanks to my teachers.
But you still need organised environment (school). Media, friends, libraries siblings are not selective enough in offering particular knowledge (for young students).. it is OK for us with experience and some knowledge of what we want to learn in greater detail.

[A23649]

I don't want to live on this :earth: anymore.

[Steffen]

Oh, the humanities...

[Steffen]

Differentialrechnung.

But calculus isn't higher maths, it's high school maths. It is very much intuitive and graspable by anyone who can tell the difference between speed and acceleration. Backing off at calculus is a very bad sign indeed.

I despair on a daily basis at what my kids are taught at school. They have a subject called "science", can you believe that? When I went to school we had geography, biology, chemistry, physics and astronomy all as separate subjects and taught by different teachers. Here, they have three different subjects for physical education. It's like we're breeding Neanderthals.

Cheers
Steffen.

[AndrewJ]

Oooohh, a great chance for weightlifting gold at the next Olympics

Andrew

[Steffen]

I know exactly what you mean, and I'm having a hard time coming to terms with that myself.

Cheers
Steffen.

[Astro_Bot]

Steffen, please correct your quote at post #28: I didn't say that, it was user silv!!

[Astro_Bot]

Of course there's even older school where the birch ruled. Mind you, in my school days, we'd progressed beyond the birch but not beyond the chalk duster as a "student waking projectile device". ;)

[Steffen]

Done!

[bojan]

Here wo go again:
http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/national/maths-science-uni-subsidies-to-end/story-e6frfku9-1226454083363