Deep region of The Swan - updated [Archive]

strongmanmike

18-07-2012, 12:12 AM

As far as cloudless and moonless goes Sunday night was a corker here in Newcastle (as was last night and tonight I believe?) but t'was a single night for me, in fact not even the whole night - just a 4hr HaOIIIRGB exposure actually.

Apart from the usual crap seeing :rolleyes:, all went 100% without a hitch and I grabbed some decent colour data for a change (still only 6X5min each colour but that's enough with this scope) and here is a relatively deep image of the region around the Swan.

As I seem to do these days, this is an RGB balanced image using Ha and OIII data mixed with RGB

A small crop is attached to this post for illustrative purposes but here is:

The Full 1.8deg X 1.8deg Frame (http://www.pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/144807424/original) (50% res)

A Nice Crop (http://www.pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/144807423/original) of the good bits (75% res)

and even though it was poor seeing.... :scared::scared::scared::scared:

a close up of The Swan only (http://www.pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/144807425/original) (100% res)

Here is the 2hrs worth of H-alpha full frame (http://www.pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/144785975/original) (50% res)

Ah sigh..another image taken at sea level in light polluted Newcastle, bring on cold, dark and high Canberra...Cheers big ears :)

Mike

SkyViking

18-07-2012, 07:43 AM

Hi Mike, congratulations on another great looking image once again. Impressive how much colour you picked up with the relatively short exposure time. I like the 75% res crop the best I think.
I believe I can see what you mean about the seeing, the full res close up is nice but it does look a bit blurry. Do you know what FWHM's you get on a regular basis, and what can you expect in Canberra?

This is one that I'd like to image as well, it's an incredibly bright nebula and surprisingly a bit overlooked. I'm working on a couple of other images at the moment though, so it might have to wait until next season.

multiweb

18-07-2012, 08:30 AM

Cool shot. I also really like the colors. :thumbsup:

gregbradley

18-07-2012, 08:53 AM

Wow, high impact image Mike.

Your scope just reveals everything. It would be an amazing instrument at a dark site with good seeing. Even without that you are producing stunning images.

Greg.

strongmanmike

18-07-2012, 09:20 AM

Thanks Rolf

Arggg the seeing, the seeing, where for art thou seeing :help:

Totally agree with you, I like the 75% version best too, starts to break down after that, nearly didn't post the 100% res version but hey, seeing is somthing indelibly attached to what we do, mine's just nearly indelible ink :lol:

FWHM...? don't really look at that, just the amount of real time star dancing around on the screen in both the main scope and the guide scope :sadeyes:

We look to have a rural rental property secured at 730m ASL for 6-12 months in dark skies outside Canberra, compared to middle of a city at sea level on the East coast of Australia... so here's hoping :thumbsup:

Cheers marc

Cheers Greg, yes it is a remarkable instrument, only really in 2nd gear at the moment too

Yes, if I can get her to experience good seeing :prey: - look out :D

Mike

Paul Haese

18-07-2012, 09:30 AM

Extensive image Mike. Covers a great more of the field than I have seen before. Colour is ok I guess but maybe a bit red for my taste, however that is your choice. I would have thought given the proximity of golden stars in that field part of the image would have been quite golden, particularly at the top of the image.

I really like the amount of sharp detail in the Omega, however on the outsides I am assuming you used a fair bit of smoothing to control the noise levels. The stars in the surrounding field look a little too blurred to me.

Overall I think it is a lovely image, thanks for posting.

RickS

18-07-2012, 09:42 AM

Very nice, Mike. You certainly have a formula that works!

strongmanmike

18-07-2012, 11:02 AM

Thanks for the feedback Paul :thumbsup: The colour thing is very scientific with me, often referd to as the "as I feel it coming along..that's about right" approach :lol:. Actually no, I wouldn't consder that I used a lot of noise reduction at all, just a very mild low pass in Astroart after the stretch, most of the blurring is simply the seeing, it is that bad, the image scale is 1.57"/pix but the seeing is probably 4" (hence why it looks good at 50%) - nottin I can do about that but try my best, The sharpening applied to the main items of interest has probably set a slight sharpness differential across the frame. The 12" F3.8 with the 16803 sucks in the photons so simply doesn't need super long exposures for good smooth results :)..I really notice the difference when comparing to my former 6" F8 APO and the KI11002 chip images of teh same things..like chaulk and cheese.

Mike

Cheers Ricky

Mike

atalas

18-07-2012, 06:09 PM

Again a very clever image Mike!love the color and the use of specular highlights....you rock dude.

tilbrook@rbe.ne

18-07-2012, 06:15 PM

Hi Mike,

Great image once again, and such a complicated nebulosity. How did you balance the inner region?

Cheers,

Justin.

DavidU

18-07-2012, 06:18 PM

Very good image Mike. You must be bustin' for a dark site.

h0ughy

18-07-2012, 07:49 PM

never seen it like that before Mike - nice one and i look forward to the dark site version

marc4darkskies

18-07-2012, 08:41 PM

Great field and good detail Mike! Not completely convinced with the colours ... but what the heck! :) The stars have good colour and look pretty tight to me.

Cheers, Marcus

strongmanmike

18-07-2012, 09:35 PM

Yes, indeed I am David, indeed I am :)

Not sure what you mean? I didn't think it was all that different really..? I have gone for a vibrant look and emphasised the red a bit I guess :question:

Cheers Justin
Just a lot of blending, I think the lttle bit of OIII I collected helped when I added it in the mix..?

Mike

Cheers Marcus, so what's wrong with the colours? I was quite happy with the colour, too vibrant/saturated for you :question:

MIke

h0ughy

18-07-2012, 09:40 PM

Mike i am used to a DSLR red version of this with no star colours - if you getthis from metropolis then you should get a lot better from dark skies

strongmanmike

18-07-2012, 09:47 PM

Actually not sure dark skies will make thaaaat much difference on bright objects like this where much of the depth is in the Ha or OIII, the real benefits of a dark sky will be for very faint extended dusty nebs, distant galaxies and getting good clean RGB that needs little or no gradient work :)

Mike

Stevec35

18-07-2012, 09:48 PM

Lovely sharp and detailed image Mike. I don't think the colours are quite right but hey, you can't have everything.

Cheers

Steve

strongmanmike

18-07-2012, 09:49 PM

Hmmm oK,ok, let me in on this guys, explain yourself, don't just tell me the colour is not right, tell me why and back it up with something..?

:thumbsup:

Stevec35

18-07-2012, 10:29 PM

Well I guess I shouldn't criticize colour balance too much because I frequently get it wrong. This is Jay Gabany's version which most people think is pretty close to the mark. Should add that I've never got it to look like this myself.

Cheers

Steve

http://www.cosmotography.com/images/small_m17.html

strongmanmike

18-07-2012, 10:51 PM

...most people :question: ...would DM agree? I dunno?...then there was that time back in 06 and my M16 at the DM's remember :whistle:...which just goes to show, what is right and what is wrong, t'is what people are used to in many cases ;)

RJ's shot does look pretty cool though :)

Mike

jjjnettie

18-07-2012, 11:28 PM

So much colour. :) Bootiful work Mike.

strongmanmike

19-07-2012, 12:07 AM

Colour can be a subjective thing at times and some of you have expressed some hesitation or are a bit iffy about the colours I have arrived at in this image, so I am interested in your opinions here, which of the following three representations of the Swan do you think is the most accurate or best and why..? :thumbsup:

Mike

jjjnettie

19-07-2012, 12:51 AM

I'm a DSLR girl, so I'm partial to the kinds of colours they produce.
But I believe that every image is unique. Everyone has their own interpretation they give their data. If we all processed every image the same, what would be the point? We may as well shoot each object just once if that were the case.

dvj

19-07-2012, 01:25 AM

David Malin's AAO shot Mike. Because it was done by his understanding of object colors. He wrote a whole book on it. I think in the end, your image is over-saturated, over colorized. That's not to say it's bad, nor are you the first one to do this. It's just very easy to push an image too far with that much data. And... you have some excellent data there to work with. Take a look at Martin Pugh's approach to color. He has found the right balance of contrast and saturation.

If you keep this up, we will have to take that 12-inch away from you. I could do some nice H-a work with it from Coona. :rofl:

Cheers,

j

gregbradley

19-07-2012, 06:43 AM

I think RJ's got it. The AAO image is very similar but I think the advances in CCD over film allowed him to capture a few nuances there.

This neb is not straight pinkish red it has some subtle colours in it including white areas on the spine where the O111 mainly is. There is some brown dusty areas too.

My personal opinion on Ha O111 is less is more as there is so much Ha around it can easily take over an image and you lose the other subtle colours that can make an image more interesting.

Its not a matter of right or wrong though as it is one way of showing the object. You didn't invent those colours you simply accentuated some over others. So its a choice of display of the object. The standard if there were one would be what would this object look like viewed through human eyes if they were able to see it fully illuminated. As human eyes can't then this makes it complicated.

Greg.

SkyViking

19-07-2012, 08:45 AM

I'll vote for RJ too, the colours in that rendition look very natural and detailed. These nebulae most often display a whole range of subtle hues which are a delight to see. One exception that comes to mind is the Lobster which I'm working on at the moment, it is just red, very red! :eyepop:

I have no narrowband experence at all, but purely guessing I assume maybe Ha can easily become overpowering when combined with the rest of the data. Depends on what detail you are after though, if you want to show the full extent of Ha details well then that's probably also the colour you'll end up with - which is only natural :)

irwjager

19-07-2012, 10:25 AM

Amazing shots Mike - as always, I should add.
There are no rules for colour unless you specify what you are trying to accomplish with your image. And even then it is a murky subject.

If you're going for 'as the human eye sees it', then you are limiting yourself quite a bit. The equivalent in the luminance space of such a limited (and dare I say 'old-school') approach would mean no dynamic range management at all, washed out details, etc; not much to see really. It's all we could do before CCDs came along.

Simple (L)RGB imaging makes it hard to discern detail - all the interesting stuff such as Ha, SII sits in the same band (red), while the other interesting stuff is way overpowering (Hb, OIII) in the green band due to the way the human eye works (much more sensitive to green). Bringing out red more (for example by introducing higher saturation) to compensate for the human eye's comparatively poor response, can upset your colour balance and/or amount of discernible detail and so the problems really start if you're trying to stay 'true' to 'how the eye sees it'.

Today we have the unique ability to emphasise and bring out detail with colour as well as luminance, so why not use it? Personally, I am all for taking some liberty with colours, if it helps understanding an object better or if it helps draw the attention of the viewer to what you're trying to show. The HST palette is one such method to accomplish that goal for narrow band imaging, but why wouldn't you modify colours in RGB images to accomplish the same goal?

I'm a big fan of Mike's work in that he is absolutely not afraid of experimenting with colour (though his luminance data isn't too shabby either ;) ). Old rules are there to be broken, especially if you have a good reason. I can think of plenty.

dvj

19-07-2012, 10:54 AM

Here is a lovely image from Wolfgang promper.

http://www.astro-pics.com/17plm.htm

silv

19-07-2012, 11:46 AM

the AAO image looks noisy and the color shades depend on the noise, too. don't they. that's where the yellow tint (the brown) comes from.
the 2 images that have a clear black (as in 'no noise') as background
http://www.cosmotography.com/images/small_m17.html
and
http://www.astro-pics.com/17plm.htm
are less brown and overall show more differences in the nebula color.

myself being far from producing such images, I still have my own taste - and that goes for more nuances.

the pink in your image, michael, is stunning and like candy floss.
a looker.
but not my cup of tea. :)

TrevorW

19-07-2012, 07:12 PM

Love the detail but colour is a bit rich IMO

As you said colour is subjective and definitely a personal preference

Alchemy

19-07-2012, 07:45 PM

Color can be so subjective, the shots I've taken with a OSC camera turned out just like the Anglo version, galabanys version is pretty but lacks the depth, I'm yet to be convinced the white in his is a true representation.
If you like it so be it, surely thats all that matters....... Unless you enter a competition, then if in doubt just use narrowband colors You can't go too wrong there.

On a personal level bit less pinky would do me, but I'm not saying thats correct either.

strongmanmike

19-07-2012, 08:06 PM

Some good responses there guys, cool.

No real consensus yet about the three images other than AAO and RJ got a couple of votes and I Got none due to being a bit pink...what's wrong with pink anyway as Silv said like Fairy Floss..mmmmm fairy floss...mmm :lol:

Yes Johnny, the AG12 would do better out in Coona :thumbsup:

On ya Ivo ;)

Mike

RobF

19-07-2012, 08:19 PM

Nice image MIke.
I really like to see the blues in the "spine" of M17 showing through, with pink around. Peter W posted a wonderful version some time ago.

Still, this has NB mixed in, and its.....well.....humungous really :thumbsup:

Ross G

20-07-2012, 06:24 AM

Hi Mike,

Another great photo.
Amazing detail and sharpness and I like the colours.

Ross.

alan meehan

20-07-2012, 07:18 AM

I like your image Mike not to pink for me ,the ato image looks to green for my liking ,go canberra gunna miss ya hear in sunny newie
AL

strongmanmike

20-07-2012, 03:50 PM

Thanks for the comments Al, Ross and Rob, I'm leaving it as is....for now :lol: :thumbsup:

Funny though, there has been over 500 IIS viewers of this thread now but only a fraction of that number have had a look at the full frame image...interesting :confuse3: Is this a case of if you post a thumbnail in the thread then most will just look at that..? cause that was only a low res crop :shrug:

Mike

stevous67

20-07-2012, 09:11 PM

Hey Mike,

Seeing this is your image, its done to your taste, and thats what is great about this hobby in that we all can be a little creative with the end result.

Its certainly a dazzling FOV, very nicely done. :thumbsup:

Cheers,

Steve

strongmanmike

21-07-2012, 03:12 PM

Thanks Steve and you hit it on the head - Dazzling is exactly what I had in mind :thumbsup:

I just did a Hubble Palette close up - new thread :)

Mike

Peter Ward

21-07-2012, 08:48 PM

I don't think Jay's image was off the mark.

Candy floss pink is probably not right, as there is a fair bit of dust in the same region.

Spent a bit of time calibrating the colour in this one....

http://www.atscope.com.au/BRO/gallery21a.html

Nice image Mike.

Star are a little soft (well... for an A-list image) ...but I'm thinking high-res astrographas have *exactly* the same seeing problems as similar aperture long FL scopes.

strongmanmike

21-07-2012, 09:37 PM

Hmmm yes, "think"...? ;)

Yeh?...against what..? Doesn't look much like RJ's. Good to see that actually, my higher res version (http://www.pbase.com/strongmanmike2002/image/144862280/original) using the best subs.. stacks up quite well :D...considering my crap conditions :sadeyes:

.

I'll take nice, nice is..?.. good :thumbsup:

Yep, with 1.57"/pix one needs better seeing to realise the potential

Bassnut

21-07-2012, 09:47 PM

friggen ego maniacs, both of you :poke:

strongmanmike

21-07-2012, 09:50 PM

Go away :mad2:

:rofl:

Peter Ward

21-07-2012, 10:15 PM

Well, neither RJ's version or mine are candy-floss pink. :)

Hey, it's a good image, but the colour is a little Las Vegas, and to my eye, the stars look a little soft.

Yep, I'm not PC either. But I think you knew that ;)

strongmanmike

21-07-2012, 10:21 PM

I know, you guys need to get with the show...and Pluto Pups too :)

Ain't imaging fun...particularly with a Fred popping his nogin in out'a tha blue :hi:

Mike

Leonardo70

23-07-2012, 06:37 PM

Mike ... :eyepop:

:)
Leo

strongmanmike

23-07-2012, 11:47 PM

:hi:

marco

25-07-2012, 02:01 PM

Hi Mike, great Ha contribution, very deep image with all emission nebula popping out :thumbsup:
About colors, it is always a difficult topic, almost impossible to have everybody on the same side :D I too find the image a tad too magenta, however this is a matter of personal taste and doesn't take anything to the beauty of this picture. I find also that most of your images tends to be more magenta than (for example) mine, so either we both need to check for color blindness :P or simpler we are both right in giving our personal interpretations :lol:

A great image overall, up to your standards!

Clear skies
Marco

strongmanmike

25-07-2012, 02:30 PM

Thanks Marco, glad you liked it (mostly) :)

I have to say though, I actually thought you would find it ok :confuse3:. When I look at your recent images of Eta Carina (http://www.glitteringlights.com/Images/deepsky/13667287_7Mtr58#!i=1908719097&k=rdGW9Nb&lb=1&s=A)and The Running Chicken (http://www.glitteringlights.com/Images/deepsky/13667287_7Mtr58#!i=1746411649&k=r5rkfMD&lb=1&s=A)for eg, there is little difference in our vibrant colour balances. There is some suggestion however that the area around the Swan may be more dusty and hence slightly redder and thus less magenta than the Eta Carina and Running Chicken areas but yes, it's interesting...In relation to the correct RGB "look" then Hydrogen nebulae are mostly magenta rather than true red, due to the HBeta influence (which is blue), it is the degree of saturation that is perhaps in question here? :)

Ok, on to the Chamaeleon Cloud...now that's not Magenta :lol:

Mike