Dangerous Eyepiece Filter?

[RAJAH235]

Hi all, I came across this when I checked out the SAXON site, which paul, beren,and others had mentioned, re; the 80mm ED t'scope.
This, I found at the bottom of the page.
AN *EYEPIECE SOLAR FILTER*, next to a Moon filter.
I have sent SAXON an email regarding this item still being advertised and available.
What do you think? An oversight? Any sight?? I was horrified to see that they are still selling them! I tell ALL, to HIT THEM, (the E/P), WITH A HAMMER to make sure that no one is able to use them.
Very concerned about this situation.

[Starkler]

I beleive it is illegal to sell such sun filters in Australia.

[[1ponders]]

Damn dangerous. I wonder if their insurance company knows they are selling them.

[beren]

Well done for picking that up , be interesting to see if/how promptly they reply to the email , it is illegal to sell those filters in AU......its frightening that these things still get produced and may be sold in countries were safety laws are softer/non-existant then here.

[iceman]

ditto what the others have said.

I would never, never use an eyepiece solar filter.

For any newcomers, never, ever use an eyepiece solar filter. The concentration of sunlight can lead to the glass in the filter cracking, and hence streaming magnified sunlight directly into your eyeball. You will be blinded.

I've read stories (can't comment on their accuracy though, it's probably 3rd or 4th hand information) of people using eyepiece solar filters, and looking away for a minute or two, and while they were away, the filter shattered and sent shards of glass up into the ceiling.

I can't believe Saxon are still selling them.

[ving]

filters are for whimps anyhow ;)

how can they sell that anywhere? I've seen something similar before...

[rumples riot]

That really does need to be reported to the ASIC (Australian, Securities and Investments Commission, that company is in blatant breach of the law.

[RAJAH235]

Adendum to Mike's post, The outcome is PERMANENT BLINDNESS in the central part of the retina. It is PAINLESS, as there are no nerves in the eye to respond. You will NOT EVEN KNOW it is happening!
Mike, Can you make this thread a *STICKY*?

[ballaratdragons]

Also found this on their accessories page at Saxon Australia!

It appears that you can pick the Brand you want to use to go Permanently Blind.

[ballaratdragons]

I have just searched their site and <b>cannot</b> find any disclaimers, warnings or "Not available in Australia" notices!

[iceman]

I'll try and give them a call.

[bytor666]

wow that reminds me of the time I looked at the sun thru a small filter of the same type when I was about 19 yrs old. I looked at the sun thru a 60mm refractor for about a minute and I just stopped. luckily the glass didnt break from the heat or i wouldnt have ANY vision in my right eye. I know there might have been harmful rays that I prob had entering my eye , but my vision is still excellent in my right eye and I am 42 now. I wish they never sold these to people because someone might not be as lucky as I and look for an extended period until it shatters from the heat.

[Starkler]

The other problem is when the sun is off to one side of the field of view . My poor 60mm tasco scope that i had as a kid got its plastic lens mountings melted this way and ruined.

[ballaratdragons]

I have 3 Huygenian Ep's that melted and bubbled, so I show them to people (especially kids) so they can see up close what will happen to thier eyes looking at the sun.

They were un-filtered but the point gets across!

[Astroman]

I did a similar thing but to a piece of paper. In an effort to show some friends the importance of NOT looking at the sun with a telescope (without proper filtration) I folded an A4 piece of paper in half twice. Then held the paper upo the eyepiece with a 12.5mm eyepiece. The paper burnt all the way through in less than a second, if amazed me too. I wasn't expecting it to happen that quick.

It showed tham and they all remember. I plan to buy some Baader Solar film and make a front mounted filter for my scope.

[coxellis]

There was a guy in the UK who inadvertently took his glass Ha filter off the front of his scope whilst it was still pointed at the sun. It melted the surface of his secondary mirror and burnt a hole through the ccd chip in his cam.

I use a baader film mask and even at 99.7% block, I had to make the aperture only 3" to get the camera to work with it as with a full 8" aperture mask, the exposure time needed was too fast.

These eyepiece solar filters should be banned outright - they're just damned dangerous.

Andy

[ving]

just wondering... while semi on topic, you know the solar viewer "glasses" that get sold when ever there is an eclipse? can you use those and look thru binoculars?
feel kinda silly asking actually :whistle:

[iceman]

Only if you put them on the front of the binoculars, and not on your eyes.

[ving]

so what happens if they are on your eyes? i'd have thought the effect would be the same(ish)

[cometcatcher]

No! The heat coming from the binoculars will melt the glasses just as a telescope would.

[ving]

oh ok then :)

guess i wont do it :P

[Vermin]

Jebus Ving!

Try this: get a magnifying glass and focus the sun into a spot on an empty pop-tart packet. Observe the result. Now imagine your eyes were behind it.

[ving]

no need! I used to fry ants with one as a kid :P

[Vermin]

How come you had to ask about using eclipse specs and binos then?

Or were you subtly trying to highlight the danger for others with your question?

[MiG]

The power density is much higher after the binocs. Before binocs: assuming 50 mm apertures, 3927 mm^2 of filtering area
After binocs: assuming 10x mag = 5 mm exit pupil, 157 mm^2 of filtering area.

So each part is absorbing 25 times more energy if you use the filters between the binoculars and your eyes.

Now lets say you have a 100 mm refractor with a 5 mm exit pupil and an eyepiece filter. 400 times more energy absorbed per area. No wonder the bloody things break.

[RAJAH235]

Hi all, just updating. I have emailed Saxon 4 x now and still they have not had the decency to reply. Mike, how did you go with your phone call. (22/2)? What to do next guys? Dept. of Fair Trading? A Current Affair? Today Tonight? We have to get these off the open market somehow!
:confuse3:
I really don't think that they, Saxon, realise how dangerous the filters are. Perhaps a DEMO? Anyone?
Regards, L.

[ballaratdragons]

It would be interesting to see if they actually sell them or if they are just product photos from an American or manufacturers site.

[RAJAH235]

Ken, It would be nice just to recieve an answer from them.

[coxellis]

Perhaps a suggestion to them about one of their directors showing it's use in conjuction with a 12" dob posted on their website to prove they're safe? :lol:

Over here it would be pretty straight forward - a complaint to trading standards about them not being 'fit for purpose' would do it (I don't think UK trading standards are over concerned about the downright dangerous factor...) Can you do the same thing in Oz?

[RAJAH235]

Probably Andy. Will wait for Mike to reply re; phone call. Don't know if or what just yet. Great suggestion. A good place to start, I think. Luckily we have a solicitor on board. May get some relative info. from him. L.

[RAJAH235]

Finally, a response guys. I received this eMail from Saxon and want you all to share in the good deed that we have done. As I said to Mike, we may have saved someone's sight in persevering with this issue. I just hope that they tell other companies about this. Thanks guys.
Regards, L. :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :cool:
Thank you, Saxon. Well done. :clap: :clap: :clap: :thumbsup:

[iceman]

Good work Laurie, well done with your persistance. Sorry I didn't get around to replying to your emails, I had no joy with the phone calls, couldn't get through to anyone.

Hopefully your great work has potentially saved the sight of some poor sod who buys those pieces of junk. They really should do a recall from anyone who bought them, not just take it off the website.

[beren]

Thats a pretty poor effort at a response from *Stella*....but good work Laurie

[Starkler]

I agree beren that the email doesn't really fill one with confidence that they are taking the issue seriously.

I dare say the correct authority should be informed to ensure that Saxon comply, but just who is the correct authority ?

[beren]

MMMM 14 days to repond to a email , Mike unable to get through using the number and a lousy *regars* from *Stella*, not much to give you confidence in service relations .......maybe one of our Sky and space / Sky and Telescope magazine friends could help out

[Starkler]

It appears that the website was changed.
It still shows the picture but they have deleted references to the sun filter.

The real proof would be in trying to order one.

[Starkler]

I have just lodged a complaint with Consumer affairs Victoria re the sun filter on their web form.

The gist of the compliant wording is as below.


My belief is that such filters have been illegal to sell in Australia for some years for the reason of being inherently unsafe due to risk of causing blindness. The filter has been advertised on the www.saxon.com.au website alongside a moon filter. Upon insistance from Astronomy community members the words "sun filter" have been removed but the picture remains. We request CAV ensures that Saxon comply and never offer such a dangerous illegal product for sale in Australia.

[RAJAH235]

Geoff, The pic now shows only moon filters. The original pic is gone along with the ref. to SOLAR filters. It would appear that the deed is done! L. :thumbsup:

[MiG]

So it's gone from the website. Does this mean it's not sold anymore? I'm not so certain.

[RAJAH235]

As Geoff has said, try to order one??? L.

[gaa_ian]

Has anyone had any follow up from Saxon to assure us that not only have these filters been withdrawn from sale, but that a product recall has been done, with Saxon individually contacting anyone who has bought one with an offer of refund + ?
This is the least they should do, Saxon scopes are to be found at every 2nd camera shop accross australia :eyepop:

[Starkler]

Consumer affairs have not responded to the complaint that I lodged as yet.

[astroron]

I did a school solar field day with my 20 cm SCT and left the scope pointing at the sun with my thousand oaks filter on,forgetting about the finder scope which only had a cover on the eyepiece end, one of the kids told me that the scope was on fire as there was smoke coming from my finder, after examening the cap of the finder scope there was a perfect eliptical plastic lens in the middle of the cap, I pointed out to the kids that was what could happen to their eyes if they looked at the sun with any optical magnification.



40cm Dob with Argo navis
20cm ultima celestron
15x65 Bino's

[robin]

I have dealt with SAXON before,or more to the point,the company that imports them.This heinous issue comes as no surprise.No apologies for such strong words...this is a deadly serious issue

[robin]

Good onya Ken.Let us know what the outcome is ok.
By the way,where 'west of Ballarat' are you mate?

[ballaratdragons]

I will Robin.

I am on acres at 'Snake Valley'. Pop: approx 200. About 45k WSW of Ballarat. Nice and DARK & quiet except for the sounds of sheep chewing and horses farting!

[janoskiss]

There is a scope on ebay with one of these EP Sun filters. After all the hype about them I want one! So no one else bid please.

[robin]

Well you're only a resonably short drive from Warrnambool then aren't you. An hour & a bit i reckon. I envy your dark skies...I'm right in town & have a fair amount of light pollution.

[ballaratdragons]

I am familiar with Warrnambool. I stay at the Caravan Park out of town next to the speedway when I holiday down there.

It is a very over-lit tourist spot! Got to light it up for all the visitors!!

We used to have 4 street-lights up until a few weeks ago. Now we have 16 that I can find. You are welcome to come up and enjoy the dark anytime.

[robin]

Thanks Ken, thats very good of you to offer.

[janoskiss]

First of all, find out if they are really illegal. If not, then find out if anyone ever lost their sight by using one. If not then find out if they have ever been known to fail. If yes to any of the above then write to ACCC (Consumer affairs is no good because this goes beyond state boundaries). If no to all of the above then buy one and enjoy! :P

[Starkler]

I received a letter from Consumer Affairs Victoria today in response to the complaint I lodged regarding the sun filters on the Saxon website.

This response only addresses part of the complaint. One can only hope that the importer now has an awareness of the illegality of the product having been approached by an official agent and will act accordingly.

[ballaratdragons]

It's nice to finally get an answer Geoff, but it was a bit soft! Thanks for trying.

We know it was taken from the website. But there are probably thousands of the filters in shops around Australia.

We need Current Affair or Today Tonight to give a warning.

[gaa_ian]

Good one Geoff :)
Perhaps you could respond to consumer affairs asking
1. What actions have been taken to ensure no stock is in the shops?

2. Is a product safety recall going to be done for those already sold?

You may like to point out to consumer affairs that these filters were displayed on their site just a few weeks ago, not "a long time ago"

[Exfso]

I had one of these filters about 30 yrs ago on an old 4.5" reflector, cant think of the brand, but I remember screwing it in the eyepiece and withing 10 seconds it virtually exploded, thank god I was not looking through it. Have to admit I was real "green" then and didnt know any better, or should I say I trusted that it was ok. WRONG!!!!:mad2:

[Starkler]

Worth a report to Ebay do you think ?

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3636&item=6167855716&rd=1

I have already asked seller a question if they are the importer or if purchased locally.

[janoskiss]

Looks like maybe a private resale of an ebay scope. I don't think much can be done about these sun filters popping up on ebay from time to time.

What's the seller to do? devalue the product by throwing out accessories that came with it? Even if we try to warn them, how are they to respond? On the one hand there is the manufacturer of the scope who obviously thinks the sun filters are perfectly safe and on the other there is some crackpot sending them alarmist emails.

And what can we expect ebay to do? Unless it can be clearly demonstrated to them that something illegal is going on, probably not much.
.
A more effective way of dealing with the problem might be through a public demonstration; like buying a bunch of these sun filters and getting them to explode in the focusers of various types of scopes. A show like Today Tonight would love it. Or call in the Mythbusters!!

[iceman]

Now that's a great idea :) It's on tonight peeps, 7:30pm SBS.

[Roger Davis]

These type of filters have been LEGISLATED against here in Oz. Have never seen a sun filter from Saxon yet, and don't want to! These types of filters were meant to be used in conjunction with an Herschel wedge where only 5% of the incident light is reflected to the eyepiece, the eyepiece is fitted with a No4 Density sun filter to bring that 5% down to 0.01% which is safe for viewing. The other 90% passes through the prism and out through a hole in the prism cover. If you see one, stomp on it, smash it with a 5kg sledge hammer, and ensure that al that left is glass powder!

[jjjnettie]

I agree that this topic should be a "sticky".
Solar film is an inexpensive alternative as has been mentioned.
It only costs $40-$45 for an A4 size sheet.
I went halves with Rob Xreckor in a sheet, and with that $20 half sheet have turned 3 scopes + their finders, and one monocular into solar viewers. $5 per instrument. How cheap is that.

[asimov]

I've still got one of these filters........it cracked in half while my father was looking thru the eyepiece of my 8" reflector 20 odd years ago.....

[janoskiss]

Solar film would be just as if not more dangerous in the hands of the inexperienced/foolish as solar EP filters. Unless the solar film comes with precise instructions on how to and how not to use it.

[rochler]

EP Solar filters. It came with my first 'Dept. Store' scope (115mm reflector) in the late 60's. I used it a number of times correctly (by putting on the aperture mask so that only a small portion of light entered the OTA and it was o.k.)

However, it is *very* easy to forget to use the aperture mask, particularly for a child (I was only 9 at the time) and on one occasion that is what I did. Luckily I was taking a break & talking to my brother when all of a sudden I heard a loud 'pop' and instantly an extremely bright beam of light emerged from the eyepiece. We were both like 'wow, what is that?' I immediately pointed the scope away from the sun and took out the eyepiece. Examination of the filter showed that it had a huge crack diagonally across the entire surface - it had expanded from the heat to the point where it exploded. Even at that young age I shuddered at the thought of what might have happened to me.

If I had been looking thru the EP at the time I would have instantaneously fried my own lense & optic nerve! I won't even try to imagine the agony it would involve either - it would be mebbe like someone plunging a red-hot dagger in your eye? I would undoubtably be blind today, but for sheer luck.

These EP filters *can* work safely *but* only if EXTREME caution is used. But quite rightly, the risk is far too high to allow these to be sold to unsuspecting users. It is not unlike giving a child a loaded .357 magnum on a hair trigger and inviting them to peer down the barrel while they play around with it.....

:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:

[RAJAH235]

rochler, It doesn't matter 'that they can be used safely'. They are illegal & extremely dangerous. You can consider yourself 'very' lucky you weren't at the E/Pc when that incident took place. You would prob. not have felt any pain, as the retina has no pain sensors afaik. Painless blindness.....
For the newcomer to Astronomy, who do not know any better, please, if you read this thread, DESTROY this type of 'Eyepiece sun filter' ASAP. :D L.

[Roger Davis]

It doesn't matter how much discussion is had on this, they are illegal and legislated against (as I said in a previous post). This entire discussion can simply be replaced with the words "EYEPIECE SUN FILTERS ARE ILLEGAL, DESTROY WITHOUT USING"