Fastest polar alignment mount/software?

[maxwolfie]

Hi all,

I need some help. I've been looking at buying a CG-5, HEQ5/HEQ5-PRO and other starter mounts however it has occurred to me that polar alignment in the southern hemisphere is slightly more difficult, and I have been told that polar alignment scopes are as useful as tits on a bull for us downunder because you can't see the damn stars!

Now, like with most things my budget has double or even tripled to get a decent starter mount for AP, but I've realized that if I'm spending more time getting the thing set up than actually taking photos, it's going to end up on eBay very quickly.

So, are there any decent entry level EQ mounts that are faster to align/setup to a point where you can begin AP?

[DavidTrap]

I always laugh when reading CloudyNights at the Yanks who whinge about polar alignment when they can't see Polaris. I've seen threads about people significantly altering design of their observatory so that they could line up on Polaris.

My personal favourite is PoleAlignMax - but it requires a copy of Maxim DL to do the necessary plate solving.

An alternative is to do "drift aligning" using PHD guiding. You turn off the guiding output and watch the graph on the screen which is much more sensitive at detecting drift than your eyeball through a reticle eyepiece.

There are several others that I haven't had experience with, e.g. Alignmaster.

DT

[RobF]

Alignmaster works well for many people, but it does seem to require a tight system with no flexure or mirror movement. Another issue is being able to see the star pairs it throws up.

Personally I only ever feel comfortable monitoring drift (or PAM as David said) until I KNOW the field isn't drifting. This is an iterative process, but you can home in very quickly, then spend minutes sitting on the star for final tweaking. Quite possible to have drifting on a meridian and star in East sorted within 10mins if you're in practice.

Depends how well you need to be aligned too of course - focal length you're imaging with, quality of mount, planned length of subs....

[gregbradley]

I don't think there is any way around having to master polar alignment.

If you are starting off I would suggest getting good at drift alignment.

You can do it with your camera if it downloads onto a computer screen. If you are using a DSLR you would have to use a separate specialised eyepiece called a reticule eyepiece. It places a cross hair in the field of view plus it is lit so you can see it. Then follow the many internet posted directions for doing drift alignment.

When you get good at it you can do it in about 45 minutes.

If you set up each night I would suggest putting pavers where your tripod goes and then making marks so you can repeat where the tripod sits night after night with no change. That way you do it once and it works every night thereafter. Another thing I used to do to speed it up was I would put a laser through the polar scope and it would shine a spot of light on the ceiling of my roll off roof. Once aligned I put a bit of black electrical tape on the spot. Next time I setup I simply adjusted the mount so the laser lined up on that spot again (1 minute) and I was all set.

You could mount a laser on the side of your mount and have a target on a nearby fence etc for an outdoor application.

Andy's Shotglass Astronomy sells a cheap overlay for your computer screen with instructions for drift alignment with a CCD camera or a DSLR that is connected to a laptop.

Your results in astrophotography will be no better than your polar alignment so spend some time mastering it. You'll be glad you did in the end.

Some mounts have rapid rough polar alignment setups like the Gemini system and the Paramount PMX. But these are more expensive mounts.

Greg.

[maxwolfie]

45 minutes is really beyond what I'm prepared to invest time-wise by about threefold for setup. Considering I will be starting off with my trusty DSLR and 300mm kit lens (i.e. nothing special), I am assuming initial alignment does not need to be absolutely perfect. Knowing this, I am not sure what mount is best to start off with for ease and speed of setting up.

[allan gould]

To be brutally honest if you can't spend the time to master the basics then perhaps astrophotography isn't for you. The better you become familiar with the fundamentals the quicker the whole procedure becomes. And then you know how your equipment behaves and it becomes second nature. Polar alignment is a must for excellent guiding as is perfect focus - without these two you are wasting your time no matter what level of equipment you have.
Just my 2c

[maxwolfie]

Sorry, let me re-phrase. I don't want to have to spend 45 minutes setting up for excellent accuracy EVERY time. I.e. on weeknights, after I get home from work, I was hoping spending 10-15 minutes doing a quick polar alignment. I was hoping that 10 - 15 mins could net me a decent enough alignment to do a few short subs at camera-lens focal lengths (up to 300mm).

Of course, when I have more time available, I have no issues with spending more time to get a really good alignment for longer subs and focal lengths.

[Paul Haese]

Greg, I am not sure you have the right attitude for this part of the hobby. As Anthony Wesley once told me when I was getting frustrated with seeing, "This hobby is not for the impatient".

Learning polar alignment will enhance your skills in astrophotography, it will help you to trouble shoot problems with regard to guiding etc. There are programs that will help you do polar alignment but I am yet to see them allow you to setup in 5 minutes. 45 minutes is fast and as has been suggested you can put aids down in place that will speed up the process faster still.

Anything worth doing is worth doing well.

[Astroman]

If you can learn drift aligning etc... spend a couple of nights getting it as near to exact as you can, mark the placement of tripod legs etc, if it's portable. Then once you setup again each night you will only need to spend a few minutes getting the alignment. As long as you dont move the EQhead in altitude and setup the tripod the same way ie. Level. Then if will take many minutes off you setting up each time. I used to use three paving squares with marks on them I put the tripod legs onto. These squares were recessed into my lawn so I could go over them with the lawn mower and didn't move... Very handy if you just spend the time a few nights to set it up and dont worry about catching photons, the objects wont be going anywhere in a hurry... (except for cloud cover).

[maxwolfie]

Sorry my last post was probably a bit misleading in regards to my expectations.

I know alignment is critical however I still want the ability to "roughly align" as needed, when time is short. On weekends I would be quite happy to sit as long as required to get as close to perfect alignment as possible.

I am still hoping for some comments on the various software available (NexStar vs. SynScan/EDMOD basically). As mentioned I'm tossing up with the HEQ5-Pro and the CG-5. Ultimately setup time plays a big part, and if Celestron's "All-Star Alignment" feature is going to trump setup time compared to what is required when using SynScan or EQMOD, well that's a big selling point for me.

[DavidTrap]

A 300mm focal length camera lens is going to be less critical on polar alignment vs a 2000mm focal length scope.

Nonetheless the guys are right, astrophotography is like a sewer - what you get out of it depends on what you put into it! I have done everything possible (other than build an observatory at home) to speed my setup and pull down. Look not just at saving time on polar aligning, but also on cabling and ancillary equipment setup (laptop, power supplies, cables, hubs). I have wiring looms with spiral cable wrap that save me considerable time.

DT

[alocky]

I use a polar alignment scope on my G11 (and I live in the southern hemisphere). The first time I used it it took nearly two frustrating hours kneeling in damp grass to figure it out, (not realising it was an inverted view was part of it!). But second time it only took minutes.
This was good enough for 5 minute subs at 500mm fl.
cheers,
Andrew.

[brian nordstrom]

:D Hi Greg , I feel your pain , it can be difficult getting a good polar allignment here in the south .
I have an Ioptron IEQ45 and I an polar alligned in under 5 miniutes using its GPS and software , its really easy , just plonk the mount down pointing roughly south , wait for GPS lock , and follow a pionter on the hand set , east or west , up and down and " Bingo " polar alligned .
It did take a little to learn , about 20 miniutes the first time , but it works very well . :lol: .
I have read that the new SW software is similar .
Good luck with you choice .
Brian.

[maxwolfie]

Thanks David/Andrew, good feedback.

I live in the middle of Sydney so I'm not sure if a polar scope is going to work due to LP? I have heard that this may be the case.

[alocky]

Ahh - yes, very true. I can use mine under mag >5 skies, but recently when I took the whole kit over to Brisbane for the transit of venus I had to drift align because the full moon wiped evrything out. It was only when I'd drift aligned that I was able to just pick up the stars in the polar scope with averted vision - not great.
The newer goto systems like the Ioptron described earlier sound very good in this repsect, and I've got a friend with an HEQ6 that does something quite similar in an irritatingly pain free way.
cheers,
Andrew

[Astro_Bot]

NEQ6? Is that the 3.28 beta firmware with "polar re-align" feature?

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=89312

[g__day]

PEMPRo has a polar alignment wizard too.

Also there are simple Excel spreadsheet calculators online that if you know your angular drift rate (arc seconds per pixel in each axis) - they can estimate your degree of polar mis-alignment (helps with the PHD method - better estimate of how much change to give to each axis).

[RobF]

Greg, I stand by what I said earlier - if you have a practiced routine, you can get polar aligned in your backyard in under 20mins, probably 10, especially if you're imaging at 300mm focal length. You'll need to be monitoring a camera on a star with software to pull this off. It can certainly be done.

However, in order to reach that point I can also confidently say you'll have spent 10-30hrs mastering the process and learning all the ways you can stuff it up. That's also a general theme in the thread you've started here. :)

As long as you learn something each outing and eventually get good results its worth it. It is actually worth having a go at all the options available as you'll learn something as well as figuring out what works best for you. That is, polar alignment scope, compass and level, alignmaster, camera/software assisted drift aligning, plate solving (PAM, etc), Alignmaster.

Its certainly worth working your way up in the hobby slowly, mastering one thing at a time. Might also be helpful to hear a bit more info on the rig you're thinking of assembling and types of objects you'd be after?

[silv]

Brian, I am impressed with what you re saying about the Ioptron IEQ45.
(With the price, too :lol: )

[Dennis]

Here is a quick and dirty method for the daytime:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=14036

Cheers

Dennis

[alocky]

Sorry - don't know the exact details of his AP setup, we only set our visual gear up together. There's a slight chance he's pulling my leg after hearing my views on 'paying your dues'..., but I'll find out.

[Astro_Bot]

OK. Thanks for getting back to me. :thumbsup:

[maxwolfie]

I think I have decided on a HEQ5 Pro, simply because it's the cheapest serious mount that I can buy. Celestron pricing is Australia is very expensive.

Anyone got any idea of what else I need for this mount? I will need whatever is required to mount my DSLR, run it off AC power and not sure what else?

[seeker372011]

You can get polar aligned using the CG5 all star polar align feature very quickly , certainly long enough to image at 300 mm..remember it's not going to be enough to Polar align ..beyond a point you are going to need to autoguide, say if you want 5 or 10 minute subs with a low end mount like the CG5

If you get the eq5 you can try the polar alignment feature that is in beta now

[Astro_Bot]

Good choice. Beware the manufacturer's claimed maximum payload - it's probably only two-thirds of that in reality (for good performance). But most mainstream manufacturers are like that, AFAIK.


As far as power goes, this should give you some tips (the HEQ5 Pro needs only a bit less than the EQ6 Pro):
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?p=866279#post866279

Some wooden pieces (I use cut offs of fence palings) under the tripod legs will stop the legs digging into grass/earth ruining your levelling - same sort of thing you do with a ladder, although, depending on the type and slope of ground, that might not be safe with a ladder ;).

As already mentioned, you'll need a builder's bubble level and a compass.

[silv]

you'll need a 12V jumpstart battery if you want to run it in the field.
I have a 900Amp that was 80NZ$ on sale. lasts 2-3 sessions.
that battery comes with a cable which fits into the mount.

- life view on your camera display to use it for star aligning.
or a good (!) finder scope.

some form of 1 1/4" threaded rod to screw on a ball head for your camera. I don't know what's-in'the-box of the HEQ5 - but very likely you will have to invent something to mount your camera directly onto the dove tail. drill a hole, buy a screw - that sort of thing.
When buying a tube, there are tube rings shipped with it. They usually have a 1 1/4" rod for a camera or ball head.

find a spot that's level and has good views to 3 sides. then do the solar noon method there to find an accurate SCP. mark the direction somehow. then level the mount. then ...
but hey - first, let the mount arrive. ;)

[Astro_Bot]

Well, to be a bit pedantic (sorry!), you should use a deep-cycle battery, as they are constructed differently, specifically for deep discharge. Car/jump start batteries may work for a while, but will wear out pretty quickly. You should also recharge the battery after every use (no matter what it is) as the battery will sulfate more quickly otherwise.

[allan gould]

I used to use an HEQ5 pro as my main mount and found the following to be the quickest most reliable method to achieve polar alignment.
First I buried three half bricks into the lawn and using a masonry bit drilled a depression into each brick to accommodate the legs spike. This gives an unseen stable platform for the mount. Make sure you align the tripod N-S with magnetic offset first. This will enable you to reposition the mount and tripod each time with remarkable repeat ability.
I then used two computer programs. The first is Alignmaster which I know works as I assisted Andreas the author to get it going for the Southern Hemisphere. Two iterations of this procedure gets you really close to a good polar alignment. I then use PhDguiding to do a real time drift alignment which gets you spot on.
When returning the mount to the marked position just use PhDguiding to touch up the alignment. This is the quickest most accurate method that I know that works consistently. When I go to a dark site this is the procedure I use.
Hope this helps but you have to put in the hard yards first.

[tlgerdes]

Using PHD, a fast alignment for me is 15-20 mins (1 iteration), slow alignment 30-40mins (2 iterations)

[maxwolfie]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate all your help!

[gregbradley]

300mm lens and DSLR won't require such precise alignments.

Perhaps consider the Vixen Polarie. David Houghy here has used one and was able to set it up very quickly. You should be able to get reasonable 2.5 minute exposures that way, perhaps even longer.

Greg.

[ZeroID]

At 300mm he will need pretty damn good alignment if he wants to expose for any length of time. A 105mm lens will show drift in less than 20 seconds.

[Nico13]

I agree with David here as this has made my setup time acceptable for week nights and what I find very helpful is a check list whether it's a written list or just one you have committed to memory as I have a complete pull down each night so when I go out again the list goes something like this.
Tripod levelling and approx south align
Fit the mount and check Latitude deg angle is correct
Mount scopes and all the gear for the nights work and check balance in RA and Dec.
Lock scope at park position connect all power and camera cables etc.
Power the system and Laptop and check Park in EQMOD and then perform a drift align with PHD as described in an earlier post.

And yes it's about forty five minutes but woth it for the next two or three hours relative fuss free imaging with the ED80 and DSLR on the back.
Still getting round stars after five minutes so I'm happy with that.

No special software just a guide scope and PHD, it's really quite quick once you've done it a few times and I find the most time is lost in the setup of all the gear the actual alignment doesn't take too long usually.

[Poita]

I can get an alignment good enough for reasonable subs in under 20 minutes now with the EQ6Pro.

The new firmware has a fast polar alignment routine, you do a quick 3 star align, and then follow the instructions to get a very good polar alignment by adjusting the mount itself according to the amounts shown on the hand controller.

It works really well and is good enough for reasonable length exposures.
You can do a quick drift check/align after that if you are planning l-o-n-g-e-r exposures.
I'm not sure if the same firmware is for the HEQ5Pro, EQ5 etc.

You can use also some simple software like align master (you can add your own guidestars to have ones visible from your backyard) for a quick alignment that is good enough for basic photography.

That sort of alignment is good enough to get nice snapshots of Orion and other bright targets.

I think I know where you are coming from, there are nights I want to setup and get 4 or 5 hours of really solid data, those nights I go nuts getting the drift alignment perfect.

Other nights I just want to grab some pics, kind of like a tourist on holiday snapping some shots to show the kids, and those nights I do a quick align and hammer a whole bunch of targets to see what I get.

My best advice would be to find a way to leave the mount setup outside and covered, (or use Allan's method) then it stays aligned and you just chuck the scope and cameras on and check the alignment and get on your way.

I get the North/South orientation using the Solar Noon method with a Plumb-bob during the day. Nearly impossible to get wrong and is more accurate than a compass.

[Poita]

This page is an interesting read if you want to get your head around alignment:
http://celestialwonders.com/articles/polaralignment/polaralignmentsurvey.html
http://celestialwonders.com/articles/polaralignment/index.html

[DavidTrap]

Just to be pedantic Sliv,

While these 12V jumpstart batteries are capable of supplying 900amp to start a car, they are only a 7 or 12amp/hr battery inside the box. This will power a mount for a 10-20hrs, but don't expect them to power anything like dew heaters, cameras or a laptop.

A 900amp/hr 12volt battery would be >250kg.

DT

[MrB]

I even doubt they are that.
During my time at Jaycar, I sold many replacement batteries for these Jumpstarters.
The original batteries were marked as 7 or 9 or 12Ah, but were about half the weight of the ones I sold them with the same Ah rating :eyepop:

[RobF]

Excellent and practical info to put up Peter - I'd forgotten about that one, but it influenced my thinking a lot. Realtime average Dec Drift number which you can relate to a specific adjustment for your mount/gear (knowing required direction and estimate of correction required) is hard to beat if you're constantly setting up portable gear, but just so many options and all worth understanding.

[Terry B]

I have not had a HEQ5 but did own an EQ6 and I assume the polar scope is similar. I never had any trouble finding the little asterism for the south pole in the finder even with a full moon. This would be similar to city light pollution. Move the mount til the stars line up to the asterism.
I then oriented the scope to point at the pole by releasing the clutches and whilst looking through the scope rotate it around the RA axis. When the image just rotates it is parallel to the RA axis. There is a little easily seen asterism at the scp that you can print out for a reference. You can then fine tune the orientation of the mount by centering the SCP in the eyepiece from a printout of this asterism. This entire process takes about 2 minutes.
The first time you do it it will take longer until you have the alt correct but the next time is easy as long as you level the mount before you start.
This method isn't perfect because the actual pole isn't exactly where you want the mount to aim due to refraction etc but for a short focal length camera it will be plenty good enough for up to 5 min exposures. I used this method for a long time with my 1800mm fl scope until I made my permanent setup.
To be more accurate you can drift align after doing it and you will find that it requires little correction.

Cheers

Terry

[RobF]

Thanks Terry. That's another one to add to the toolkit I hadn't heard of!

[Nikolas]

I saw this on the astronomy forum and tried it with my mount, works quite well :)
http://www.astronomyforum.net/australian-astronomy-forum/77261-polar-alignment-australia-southern-hemisphere.html