An open letter on BULLYING here in IIS

[mental4astro]

Hi all,

A recent event has given me a gutful on the Bullying that happens here on IIS.

Unless your views, AND language suits and matches with the narrow view and simpleton language of certain people, you are lambasted, ridiculed, insulted, rubbished, intimidated, and muscled off the forums.

Not just my experience, but the forums a littered with closed threads were things have been allowed to get WAAAYYY out of hand before the threads were closed down.

This has led to a "brain drain" out of IIS. The best example is the Astronomy Science Forum - it is a shadow of its former self, with a huge number of highly esteemed participants no longer contributing.

Not my own views. I've received PMs on this following my latest experience from people who no longer feel that is "worth while participating".

If you feel that something has been written that is inappropriate, REPORT IT. There is a little red box with an "X" in it in the top right margin of very post. Hit that button and report the matter if you do not feel there is a good enough rapor between you and the poster to clear things up via PM.

The PM system is a very good way of settling things too. I've used it. Works very well too. Stops things getting ugly in the public domain.

I understand that misunderstandings happen. That is the limitation of the media we are using. But there are serial pests out there that need to be stopped. These are the BULLIES.

I have appealed to the people responsible to look into this matter. I have faith in them.

Please, if you feel that things are out of control in a thread, please report it.

If you don't like how someone has responded to something you've written, look to solve it off forum, if not report it too.

There is also the IGNORE FEATURE in you control panel. It stops everything that a nominated Bully writes, including in quotes. It works. I'm using it.

AND think before you respond. If you've taken exception to something, take a deep breath and count to ten before you hit the keyboard.

If you've been put off from participating here on IIS because of abuse directed to you or others, please reconsider.

[asimov]

Yes, I call it the hero behind the keyboard syndrome. The problem with newbies on the internet is they seem to think they can portray themselves other than how they really are. If we were all down the pub together having astro conversations I can guarantee there wouldn't be any bullying going on! They get taken out the back & sorted out:lol:

I remember years ago when IIS was a small close-knit community & someone tried to bully me for a damned typo...Well it was the biggest mistake that pedant ever made in here because all my close friends ended up getting stuck in & he left the forum with his tail between his legs:thumbsup:

Pedants & rude people be damned! :P

[DavidTrap]

So doesn't this make you and your friends just as guilty of bullying, or was it Ok because he started it? :shrug:

I thought Alex's post was quite good, but I don't believe your reply is in the same spirit.

DT

[asimov]

Well I never asked for any assistance with my bullying incident, & that's my point. And yep, he got what he deserved because he decided to start it.

[mental4astro]

That didn't take long.

Gentlemen, please.

[DavidTrap]

Sorry Alex,

I fail to see Asimov's logic. He replies to your post, where you are trying to get rid of bullying on IIS and talks about having bullied someone off the forum. I thought that needed to be pointed out.

I agree that threads do go on for a while before they are shut down and your suggestion of reporting posts is worthwhile.

DT

[GeoffW1]

Wow Alex,

It must have been an outrageous bit of flaming because I reckon you are pretty tough to upset :D:rofl:

Now more seriously, I too have been blasted a few times when I wasn't trying to be controversial at all, so generally I'm with you.

It's a fine line for the mods though, between having a bit of interesting ginger on the forum, and allowing things to go too far. By and large (except of course when I get censured :P) they seem to do pretty well.

I recommend the measures you mention, PMs and the "ignore" setting.

Cheers

[mental4astro]

Not really, but the antagonist that reckoned I was an easy target (and they have form on this) showed their true colours when they refused to intimidate another respondant in the same thread who wrote the same thing. The angagonist is obviously scared of this particular respondant - so they should be - I've met him, he's big and ugly too, with a keyboard to match, :lol:.

[Sirius1066]

As a newbie here who is very much interested in fitting in and am trying hard to do so, this comment scares me off a little.

I will certainly ensure I say nothing in here that I wouldn't say in a pub. Although given some of the pubs I've been in, that mightn't help much :P

[erick]

You'll be fine, Earl. If anything does arise, it's only words on a computer screen. I agree with Alex, making good use of reporting to the moderators, private messaging and the ignore option is the way to go. Mind you, I've just checked and I have only one name in my ignore list after all these years.

I've seen examples of heated differences of opinion taken offline into email and private messages, resolved and reported back in the thread.

In a community of thousands of registered users and what must be now some hundreds of posters, there will be a whole range of people. Those spoiling for a fight will find other fora much more to their liking - they won't hang around for long.

It is no surprise to me that I find many posters see things differently to me and have a completely different style of communication. That's the world we live in - it my job to learn how to function in that world.

If I'm feeling a bit troubled, I just move on - there are more threads that interest me than I can read and post in. :)

[asimov]

If anyone fails to see the logic of my above post, well that's ok, it's not my problem. What's logical about calling somebody out about a spelling mistake? :lol:

Anyway, it was just a small factual piece of bullying as an example back in the days when everyone here was part of a team as a whole.

[Miaplacidus]

It's always a shame when people can't cope with differences of opinion without retaliating with ad hominem attacks. I think it was Aristotle who pointed out this flawed form of argument 2300+ years ago. You humans are slow learners.

[gts055]

Its a reflection the outside world, open your mouth and be prepared for all sorts of totally unexpected abusive or derogatory comment. I post very little in here and am similarly wary in conversation. Its that nasty attitude of some who drive many to keep quiet. I do read lots in here tho. Mark

[jjjnettie]

Yup, I only have one person blocked and it's wonderful not having to see their comments. But I still see how that person inflames others. :(

[MrB]

You humans?

What species are you then? :lol:

[Miaplacidus]

We don't actually have species on my home planet. We can breed with whatever we find lying around.

[chrisp9au]

Ah, a Tasmanian! :D

[jjjnettie]

:lol: That's rich, coming from a Victorian. :rofl:

[Allan_L]

Is this an example of bullying? :rofl:

Go the Blues ! :thumbsup:

[GeoffW1]

And us New South Welshmen :D, we are roses between two thorn...thorn.....something anyway :lol:

[mozzie]

geez alex!!!!!!! i hope you wearn't talking about me..iv'e met him and he's big and ugly that sounds like me :lol::lol:it's good to have a laugh thats what some people should do...there is those that really think there better and take every chance to put others down...i my self struggle here and always have i know a bit about astronomy and try to help people but putting it into words on a computer and spelling and saying what you really mean...i have people ring me it's easier to explain things to them...and there would be heaps more here with the same........

[mental4astro]

Mozzie, there is one word I use very carefully when describing someone:

Gentleman

In what ever way you may feel your "words" might be lacking, I will never see it for I know WHO you really are!

So no, you are not the big and ugly person I was referring to. Mind you, the words do describe you to a certain extent, :rolleyes:... :P

Take care my friend,

Alex.

[mozzie]

:lol::lol::lol: thanks my friend...well have to catch up again one day!!!!!!!

but you are correct things are a little different here know...maybe the way the forum is quiet a lot of members and opions!!!!

[syousef]

I've seen this sort of thing happen on a lot of Internet boards. Technical hobbies unfortunately do seem to attract egos and bullying. The best ones seem to peak then be taken over by trolls. It's the way of things.

It's not just the board. In fact it's not just hobbies. It happens within the scientific community and within other workplaces too. History's full of it.

All you can do is try to maintain your own composure and remain civil, while fully realising that there is a wide gamut of other attitudes. So people will want to be civil. Others contribute to bignote themselves. Others to help. Still others just to stir.

When it all gets too much, say what you have to then walk away and do some observing or planning or spend time with your family. Life's too short to waste on misunderstandings and quite frankly on individuals that have social attitude problems.

[jenchris]

I reckon the bullies on here take the fun out of the hobby, I've cut back my posting because I'm a happy little vegemite but after getting mauled on here a few times for being witty (well I thought so) I avoid it for days at a time.
I said something about the inhabitants of Scotland (you know the ones, they all hold position on unions all over the Western World with Geordies as their sidekicks) Well this lovely guy gives me a racist (!) tag and tells me not to comment on his posts.

No wonder I said what I did....

[Astro_Bot]

Whilst being somewhat thick-skinned myself, I know that there are many others who are quite sensitive about where they come from and react strongly when their origins or heritage is called into question. I find it best to steer well clear of such subjects. Depending on how it was worded, I can kind of see how someone might get upset at a remark like that, even if it was meant in jest. Of course, their response should have been measured and rational, but that doesn't always happen.

[mozzie]

great avatar....wish i had that much hair !!!!!!!!!

[Astro_Bot]

Now you know why I took up astronomy. With a head like mine, I daren't go out in the daytime lest the villagers chase me with their pitchforks! :)

[Irish stargazer]

:lol:

There is nothing better than a well constructed argument provided it deals with the issue and is not a personal attack on anyone or their beliefs.
Actually the thought of a meeting in the pub to discuss some of the issues raised is not a bad idea on some cloudy Saturday when the PC is not an option.
However, I imagine that after a few pints people might be pretty vocal :lol:

[mental4astro]

I'm sorry that you should have ANYONE blocked, JJJ.

I too have only one.

Your comments have been buzzing in my head, and I've come to see that there is a down side to the ignore list:

While one may not see the trash-talk, you can see that the trash-talk and hurt is being perpetuated, there is one less voice capable of reporting the post.

The fewer people there are to stomp on this behaviour, the weaker the site becomes as the trash-talk gains strength.

My particular ignore listee I'm reconsidering keeping them there now. After the many PMs I've recieved on the matter, oh, and on this person too, I in all conscience cannot allow the trash-talk to keep on. I've let my rage cool. I've taken heart from all the repondants who have voiced disapproval of bullying in this thread and privately. I just won't be goaded by this fellow, and will report incidents as they happen. I just can't bear to see more hurt being dished out needlessly.

The mods want us to report offensive behaviour. Let's report it and get something done about it.

[stephenb]

Alexander, while I do not know of your circumstances, I too have been the subject of bullying via derogatory PMs from a well known member here on IIS. I choose not to pursue it however and but I wonder what his peers in the astro community would think of him if they knew how he bullies others with faceless PMs?

These sort of tactics are NOT tolerated in any workplace in 2012 and should NOT be tolerated on a community forum such as IIS.

[silv]

while insults in PMs are a different level -
thread-"trollism" is a feature of internet forums that takes getting used to in this rather new communication platform.
I wonder - when you guys say "bullying" - is it maybe actually that normal "troll-ism"?
hit-and-run postings, aimed at everybody who seems too comfortable?

in your market place in your home town, those used to be the "punks" with spiky hair, naughty fingers and dirty tongues.
how did you react to them - if you didn't simply ignore them, I mean?

[AstralTraveller]

I don't follow that at all. You complemented someone and they took it as an insult.:shrug:

[hotspur]

[QUOTE=stephenb;865074]Alexander, while I do not know of your circumstances, I too have been the subject of bullying via derogatory PMs from a well known member here on IIS. I choose not to pursue it however and but I wonder what his peers in the astro community would think of him if they knew how he bullies others with faceless PMs?

These sort of tactics are NOT tolerated in any workplace in 2012 and should NOT be tolerated on a community forum such as IIS.

I have had the same here too Stephen,and like yourself choose not to pursue it.I have been told that my astro images are not of a high enough standard for IIS,and now post very few images of anything at all here any more.There certainly are some prickly customers here.However as has been pointed out by Syousef(good post Syousef,with some really good info there),it seems to happen a fair bit in scientific community.Of all the forums I go on,this is the only one where I have ever 'hit a stump',and it was the one I would thought I would never have a negative issue in.

Worth putting up with tripping over a few lantana bushes in this paddock though,98% of the time,many,many members are very helpful,and have made some great friendships,been able to make good progress with astronomy and photography thanks to the vast amount of clever helpful people,been able to help fellow members by loaning scopes and lenses out.Have had a member in Melbourne pick up some wired stuff and send it to me.All in all,its pretty good here,occasionally a few bugs get stuck on the windscreen,but that happens everywhere at some point in time.

I hope Alex,has not had too hard a time here,and the future for you here Alex is all good.

[mental4astro]

Mods. Where are you in these discussions?

We see threads closed down, but the offensive posts are left to fester.

Reports are made. PMs and emails sent asking for resolution. Yet the bullies and serial pests persist.

I am not asking for bans. That is last resort. But are words of caution issued privately to these members?

Like Chris, hotspur, I've noticed things change here in the past year. What I was most proud of with this site has changed profoundly. There were very few abusive posts erupting, but now with monotonous regularity. No one who's responded here wants this behaviour to continue, nor the site degrade. We value it too much. I know I do.

Where has the civility gone everyone?

Like I wrote in my original post, I understand misunderstandings happen. But it seems like first resort now is to rip apart.

Silv, I think I see where you are coming from, but I don't see anything normal in trollism. It's poor form, uncivilised and dehumanising. I don't see why it should be tolerated anywhere, here, at work or at home. But bullying is different. Some folks have developed a liking for their personal bunnies, and target them thread after thread, and that is bullying.

[iceman]

I find these things usually calm down on there own. It's not useful for me or another moderator to step in as soon as someone posts a thread like this because it stops other people having their say.

Leaving it run it's course for a while before stepping in and replying gives others a chance to state their concerns, or give their opinion on things - and we usually end up with some great comments - like these:




And this:



People will have disagreements and differences. In real life you can walk away and choose not to deal with the person again.
On the forum, things can fester for longer because unless the post is deleted, or you put the person on your ignore list, you're always going to have to 'deal' with the person in some way in the future.

We all can understand where you're coming from Alex, and like we've seen in this thread, many people can come up with instances of where they've felt wrong-done-by, or bullied, or pestered, or put-down, or talked down to, or whatever.

If there we NO instances of it, then I'd be VERY surprised. This is real life, not a cartoon or a kindergarten.

We're all human. We all have different points of view, and some people are better at getting on people's nerves than others. :)

I'm not going to order EVERY post deleted where SOMEONE may get offended. Of course there are instances where it needs deletion - and other times if it's not deleted, then at times all we can do is shrug it off. I've had to deal with it myself on other forums.

Regarding the original posts that led to this, I'll email you rather than post it here because it's better done in private.

[mental4astro]

:thumbsup:

[graham.hobart]

Help Help I'm being oppressed!
Graz from Tas
seriously though, agree with the spirit fo this thread and would also like to point out that most of us 'newbies' are polite, courteous and willing to listen (and buy!) from this forum.
Vote with your keyboard fingers
Graz

[Dave2042]

As an infrequent poster and frequent reader of the science forum, I think it is certainly the case that things have occasionally gotten a bit more heated than was sensible, and a small number of people have behaved offensively on occasion. I'd certainly sympathise with the feelings of those on the receiving end and wish it wouldn't happen.

That said I have to agree with Mike. The price of having a forum where people are free to express themselves is that some people are going to be dxxxxxxd's. Other than shutting the whole thing down, not much can be done to completely stop this.

I know it can be hard, but I think the best approach is for the rest of us to keep ourselves nice, ignore them, and remember it's just the internet.

(BTW, I hope I am indeed one of us, and not one of them them, and that someone can politely tell me if I'm deluded.)

[Tosong]

Hey Alex I'm with you all the way on this one. It's great that people have a place like IIS to share there different views about certain topics, but it's disgusting and completely unacceptable when adults don't mind their manners. It's such a simple thing to do, yet people decide to bin common courtesy when they think they can hide behind a computer. If the mods won't step in and remind people how to behave, then I personally think a public name and shame thread is the go. Let everyone see just how ill-mannered some people can be, and call them to answer for it. Sorry if it sounds a bit crazy but this thing really gets my hackles up as well. Nice work Alex :D good to see someone standing up against bad behaviour.

[Octane]

Daniel, do you honestly think your idea would make this site a better place?

I don't see how it possibly could.

You simply implicitly ignore the people that get on your nerves. A common saying on DP Review is "don't feed the trolls". It works.

H

[Tosong]

Yeah I guess it is a little full on. I guess I'm a little jaded from other toxic forums. I really like this one :D and don't want it to go the same way.

[Zhou]

There has been bullying in IIS in the past. In fact I left this very forum about 4-5 years ago when someone was abusing another member for asking a question (as daft as that question might have been). I have only just returned to IIS in the last week as it is important for me to be in contact with the astronomical community as I am about to embark on an astronomy degree and I am living far from anywhere that has ameuteur astronomers.

[FlashDrive]

I recently ' withdrew ' my intentions to buy an item on this forum .. and with very valid reasonable reasons.

He was well aware of this even before he had first replied to me

I was then ' demanded ' by the seller ... to apologize to him ... because he was ' put out ' by my actions.

What a disgrace some people can be .. to try and ' bully ' others.

Flash.

[marki]

As others have said simply report the post to the mods. I have only had one person try via PM and I reported the post to the mods and sent a curt reply to the poster informing them that I had done so. Never heard from them again simple.

Alex I will have to disagree with you over your coments about the science forum. It had degenerated to such a state that it was no longer tolerable. I love science, even make my living from it but to see it being projected as it was and still is to some extent on this site if recent events are any thing to go by was very disappointing. IIS has been getting bad press over the behaviour of its members on the science board and that simply goes against one of the foundation statements on the home page i.e. to educate. I used to send my students there to find snippets of info when we were covering astronomy/physics topics but stopped doing so as all they were concentrating on was the name calling and fights that were taking place learning the bad things rather then understanding of important concepts . It may be some peoples idea of how you should conduct yourself as a scientist but certainly not mine. Many of the regular contributors on this site would not even go there let alone post due to fear of being labelled a fool or troll and publicly flammed. Bad form in any respect.

Mark

[gregbradley]

I find this site generally very civil. I haven't personally seen too much bullying but I am sure it has occurred.

I think one thing we don't want is to lose the wonderful friendly and enthusiastic Aussie spirit that is prevalent in this forum. It is by far the premier Astro site on the net in my opinion.

If you want to see how bad it can become check out DPreview forums for various cameras like Canon 5D3 in particular (Nikon D800 is a little better but can get animal at times). They are animal sites where poor behaviour is very common and innocently posted questions get attacked
by a few nasties.

Just remember the nasties are always very much a minority even if they try to make it sound like they are a majority.

The Ignore button is your best friend in this scenario.

Greg.

[Rodstar]

Hi all,

I am glad to say that my OVERWHELMING experience of this site has been very positive. Almost everyone behaves in a very positive and constructive way. I have met some wonderful people through the forum, who are now friends and acquaintenances quite apart from contact on the IIS forum.

I am saddened that this is not the experience of others, and in particular it is most unfortunate that many of those who have posted have had a less positive experience of the IIS forums.

Part of creating a culture when bullying is the exception rather than the usual experience, is that we are all responsible to communicate in a civil and respectful manner. If each of us can ask ourselves the question before we submit a post, "Is this comment intended to help rather than harm", and only post what is helpful, then we will go a long way to avoiding the sot of behaviour Alex has identified.

Given that human nature does not change, whether at the pub or on a forum, it would surprising if there wasn't disputation or inappropriate behaviour from time to time. Just as in face-to-face meetings, there will always be people we do not like, or who we disagree with on most things....and as others have observed, common sense tells us that it will usually be better not to engage with such people and just to ignore them.

When we make mistakes, and jump down someone's throat (we are ALL capable of this, particularly if we are tired after a late observing session), and deep down we realise that our behaviour is less than ideal, I think it is important that we take responsibility for our behaviour and apologise. Sometimes having a misunderstanding with someone, and then finding resolution can lead to deeper friendship, and better understanding of each other's position.

The task of a moderator is rather difficult. We are not children. It is not the job of a moderator, in my opinion, to protect people from negative emotions. There will be strong disagreement from time to time, and that is a healthy thing, IMO.

Sometimes people can take offence at something that was never intended to offend. I can recall a recent thread where I took offence at something that in hindsight I do not think was intended to be taken in the way that I took it. Fortunately, we were able to come to a good understanding, and I think we all walked away from that interaction without any hard feelings.

Sometimes a person can go too far, and I would agree that if a thread reaches a point where people are becoming malicious and vindictive, this is the time when moderation is needed. I agree with Alex that such behaviour should be challenged by using the "report a post" function, and by PM-ing to try to sort it out.

[Octane]

Very well said, Rod. Your comments echo my own experience. :)

H

[sjastro]

Perhaps I should dig out a certain post of yours in the General Chat forum where you tried to incite further friction into a thread that had already degenerated into a bashing contest of certain individuals (including myself) who participate in the Science forum. In case you can't remember you referred to their "chronic masturbation habits".

What you are trying to do is to justify your own bullying.

As I have mentioned previously, the Science forum is nowhere near as aggressive as the General Chat forum, your own comments in the General Chat thread attest to that.
So why are certain individuals in the Science forum targeted?

I have a pretty good idea considering the term "elitist" has been mentioned on a few occasions.

Steven

[gbeal]

Heck, what a sheltered life I have led, I've just discovered this thread, and read only this page, that's enough for me.
I'm a reasonably long term member, not as long as some I might add, but nothing in this forum has ever shown itself as bullying. WTF??
If you don't get the enjoyment from this forum., move on, forget ti, and go somewhere else. I did with another one, well got biffed off actually, but that's another story.
Enjoy this from, it is difficult to beat, believe me. Good people, good relationships, minimal arguing, and that arguing tends to be more civil that usual.
Gary

[marki]

No need to dig it out Steven I know what I said and stick to it. If I remember rightly a number of members of this forum spoke out about the very poor behaviour and bullying displayed by a few on the science board at the time so much so you even started getting rude PM's when you posted on other threads as many folks had constructed a pretty bad image of those who posted regularly in the science forum. Believe me I consider my comments at the time very controlled when compared to the way I felt about the whole thing. It would hardly have been a suprise considering the number of posts I made previously on the subject both on the science board and in general chat pleading for change in attitudes but to no avail. You posted a thread questioning why people were not responding kindly to your input and did not like the answer you got. If that is bullying then so be it, I will wear that. Elitist???, my area's of study were physical chemistry and later animal biotechnology then education and no I don't see any other elite on this site. I would rather see people included, nurtured and encouraged in all things science rather then dismissed and abused as was frequently the case. If you would like to discuss this further I am happy to take it to PM's.

Mark

[xstream]

Amen!

[sjastro]

If you think a remark involving "chronic masturbation habits" is a measured or classy response, I can assure you it is nothing more than a highly offensive and cheap shot. In the same thread you suggested I was a troll.
I find it quite hypocritical that there are people with a holier than thou attitude who criticize others, yet behave in a far more disagreeable manner.

The fact is there has only been one individual who still posts in Science forum who has a history of being offensive and only does so to hide his own ignorance. If you wanted to perform a service you could could have sent that individual a PM. Instead by going public and not naming names everyone is tarred with the same brush. If you want to discuss this individual further I'm prepared to take it offline.

There is another issue to the Science forum bashing.

The idea that bad behaviour is endemic to the Science forum and somehow only confined to the "Scientists" is a fabrication. It seems that those "non scientists" who push there own private agendas, use the Science forum as a platform to spread misinformation, or worse still enter the Science forum to taunt those who know more than they do seem to be totally immune to criticism.
Yet when these "non scientists" are taken to task they are perceived as being the victims. In fact I suspected there was a lot of support for these individuals to stick it up those "smart arses" and that formed the basis of my thread. The response incidentally was very much as I expected.

Steven

[marki]

As I said happy to deal with this via PM Steven.

Mark

[mental4astro]

Please do, gentlemen.

I hope the result ends with mutual respect, and some shared coldies.

I owe one fellow a shout this way too. I haven't forgotten Dean, ;) !

[GeoffW1]

Hi,

Seconded Alex and colleagues.

The last squabble (yes, not very high-class at all :() I had, we did by PM. It's a much better way.

Cheers

[Astro_Bot]

Although I am, and have been, a member of many online communities, I am still learning who's who in the zoo on IIS, so I think I can truthfully say that I am yet to form any prejudices about people. But I am starting to form an opinion about general conduct.

I wonder how many threads on IIS are resolved not by accurate factual advice, or dispassionate discussion of pros and cons, but rather by how often an opinion is stated or perhaps even how forcefully?

In car forums that I've frequented, I've come across behaviour that was positively tribal. Behaviour is not as clear cut here, but there does seem to be some received wisdom at work.

Perhaps the forcefullness of some opinions comes across as bullying on occasion? Whether or not it fits the bullying definition, the effect can be the same in that open discussion is suppressed.

[Tinderboxsky]

You make a good point RG when posing the question as to the difference between factual advice and opinions.
I enjoy the forums, the discussions, the information and the generally refreshingly open banter between members. However, I have certainly come to the conclusion that many members are confusing the difference between advice and opinions. When replying to a request for advice, too often I see opinions proffered in response. Too often there is no context to enable an informed judgement of that opinion. But not in all cases, as there are members who will quite clearly subtitle their response as an opinion with some context which is fine.
Properly founded advice and how to provide it is a whole topic in itself, perhaps for another discussion outside this thread.

[el_draco]

Oi, You talking bout me... ;)

On a serious note though, I totally agree with the sentiment here. I was on the receiving end of a tyrade from a "know it all" and basically stopped visiting the forum in question. Pity but I've got better things to do than waste my time dealing with this sort of stuff.

The one thing astronomy should teach us all is absolute humility... but I guess the seeing has never been particularly good for the perps..

I like win/win where ever I can get it, whether I agree with a point of view or not and I admire your guts in naming it up, BULLYING.

Rom

[2stroke]

I'am also on street commodores, just commodores and calais turbo and will say that some of these guys need to harden up, some come across as queens needed to be wrapped in cotton wool and its a wonder how they survive in society.

I do agree there are some posts which can go a bit far, and alot of posts which are worded in away which is attacking and some that are just smartarse remarks.

So the poster thinks your a idiot and doesn't like you, why care? does everyone have to like you? does everyone have to agree with you? does everyone have to be your friend? does your advise have to be the only right option?

Personally i think there's a lot of idiots on here and i know alot of people think i'am an idiot as well. I don't loose any sleep on it and know there will always be people i clash with and simply just don't get along with. It's nature and if we were all friends then the useful advise would suck, because people would just back the idiot whos wrong to be nice. Its difference of opinion, advise and ideas that build the most useful threads.

Anyhow your also welcome to say Jay your full of it, cause i really don't give a care. :rofl::welcome:

P.S. Bite me hard enough ill rip your head off and leave you crying ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yix4eySVHdM
ROFL 00:25-00:27 did anyone see iceman :)

[Octane]

You're an idiot, Jay. :P :poke:

H

[2stroke]

gahaha. Thats it, i'am going to home row you if i can stop crying after being bullied by you. :P

[sjastro]

Yeah bullying is very funny.
Try telling that to families who have lost loved ones through suicide.

I don't see the joke of being threatened with physical violence, fortunately it hasn't happened on this site............

Steven

[jenchris]

It's not funny suffering physical violence either - that I can promise you.
Being smaller and weaker or simply non-violent can be a burden that becomes intolerable and it may only be a small thing that tips the balance between gritting the teeth and biting the bullet.

[2stroke]

Where did this happen? Anyhow i'am going to jump out of this thread because its got to many P.C. trolls :) Sorry to troll it up myself to the other users.

Sarcasm some people just don't get it :rofl:

[el_draco]

Actually, bullying leads to lots of people killing themselves each year and its becoming a really serious problem, especially in cyberspace. It can be savage, merciless and soul destroying for the target. Workplace bullying is rampant despite legislation and unions.

Where did this happen? Try reading the paper sometime.

As a teacher, I've seen many kids bullied by those who think its fun to destroy someone and it wrecks lives. Unfortunately, there is damn little I can do to stop it.

Sarcasm can be quite harmless, especially when its done with humour rather than venom but I can promise you it is completely different to bullying.

[Shano592]

The real test of a bully, is if they have cajones to repeat their words in person, in an offline situation.

Otherwise, they are just wasting the world's supply of 1's and 0's, and should be acknowledged as such.

And just for disclosure, I like to troll occasionally, because I know there are some really good reactions out there.

But I won't bully. Life is too short to keep making enemies. Especially when it concerns a pastime that I really, really enjoy.

[jenchris]

A friend of mine attempted suicide two weeks ago - reason?
Wife is a bully and he got bullied by his gay son as well and it pushed him over the edge.
He's 67 years old

[Zhou]

Basically Bullying is lame!

As a teacher I have had to deal with bullying. The majority of bullies fall into the following catagories. You have the bully that compensates for their own lack of self worth; they believe putting down others makes them better or stronger. You also have the bullies that like to pick on those that they percieve to be weaker and of cousrse those who are different.

Bullying is not acceptable anywhere and that includes the Net!

The majority of people on this forum are fantasic, they just want to share their hobby with other like minded souls. But, occasionally you do get a few losers who aspire to lord it over others. You may get an individual who believes their percieved superior knowlege of astronomy gives them the right to belittle and demoralise the astro-proles*. You also get the very occasional gear-head that believes just because they own a prolific amount of equipment be it a quiver of large apochromatic refractors or the greatest Ritchey–Chrétien telescope available makes them somehow awsome and venerable. Give me a break!

Most people on this forum want to enjoy their hobby. When a jerk bullies and intimidates someone who is asking an innocent question or has posted a comment that is really bad form; a better way to dissuade people in this fantastic hobby I don't know. Me musn't, however, get robust debate and bullying mixed up. Sometimes things get heated, it is our hobby and things do get passionate. But most of us know the difference between passion and intimidation.

Luckily IIS is has very few bullies. Many other forums and chat rooms I have visited in the past be it astronomy of something else are rife with jerks and other assorted knobs. Lets enjoy our hobby and encourage others to share our fantastic journey.

Chill :thumbsup:



* I use the term astro-prole from the antagonist's point of view.

[madbadgalaxyman]

I gather that there were/are some particularly "arrogant bustards" (I had to change the spelling to avoid the censor!) on the IIS science forum, who used to flame people for just "not knowing something"

It is a pity that the Science Forum has become so moribund, with hardly any contributions. I have done my best over the last few months to put in some interesting posts.

[sjastro]

There are no more "arrogant bustards" in the Science forum then in any other IIS forum.
The term "arrogant bustard" has a different connotation when used in the Science forum. Along with a few other descriptives some of which have been mentioned in this thread, it's nothing more than an expression of anti intellectualism.
I once invited a physicist (a world leading researcher in radioactive dating techniques) to contribute in the Science forum. The guy refused given the treatment that was meted out to the so called "arrogant bustards".

I'm sure he feared he would automatically qualify as an arrogant bustard for simply having a knowledge base way beyond any individual here.

Regards

Steven

[jenchris]

Who would want to date someone who is radioactive?
I'd refuse as well.
I'm an irritant bar stweard

[sjastro]

I'm sure he has heard that line a million times before along with why would he date someone that's not carbon based.:lol:

Regards

Steven

[bojan]

Well, you know, you do not have to be world-leading physicist to be labelled "arrogant" or even worse.
Recently I was given an interesting, sexist even (no idea what on earth prompted that person to mention this detail... apart from desperate attempt to insult me), attribute (via PM, and I intend to keep a copy of it as I really liked that comment - this doesn't happen to you every day, for sure).

It goes like this (quoted, some parts, mainly repeats in the same style, are omitted):

I was honoured by those words above probably because I offered the help in terms of general direction, but not ready-to-use recipe.
So, here you go - to participate or not to participate in forum discussions ?? .
I'll continue.. for now :P.

[sjastro]

Strange how some people react. One of the "best" put downs I have experienced over the years is from a particular individual who entered the Science Forum with the specific purpose of putting my credibility on trial rather than discussing the accuracy of my posts with such penetrating comments like "is this the best you can do", "prove it!!" or "how do you know that!". :)
It became pretty obvious this individual knew absolutely nothing about the Science, but was riled by the fact that there are people out there who knew more than he did.

That plus the more juvenile insults has curtailed my involvement in the Science Forum.
I'll probably stick to the less contentious forums.;)

Regards

Steven

[AstralTraveller]

Like this thread??? :rofl:

[bojan]

I think the kind of comments and insults we are talking about (which tells everything about the authors of the insult and really nothing about the targeted individuals) should not curtail the valuable contributions to a forum like this one - it shouldn't be forgotten ever that spreading a knowledge and scientific way of thinking is a kind of mission, and worthy of excess effort, more valuable today and tomorrow as ever (having in mind the current trends in devaluation of education in general).
The most important thing is to not loose the nerve and keep the level of the discussion up to a civil standards (until it makes sense, of course - the last resort is enforcing of TOS). In my opinion, this is the best method (sometimes slower..) to eliminate the trolls.

[mental4astro]

PEOPLE!

Please, what is going on here on IIS again.

There is so much angst and aggro being pushed. Why?

Some people are expressing considered opinions in good faith, sometimes on touchy subjects, and then they are being mocked and taken out of context. Debate is being crushed for the sake of ego, again.

Where has everyone's manners gone?

Yours sincerely,

Alex.

[multiweb]

There is a very strong correlation between the social atmosphere in the General Chat section and the real atmosphere. The level of b|tchin' is a good indication if it's worth setting up or pass due to risk of cloud cover. :)

[Kunama]

Quite right Marc, though sometimes it seems that members start threads on controversial topics just with the sole intent to elicit conflict, bad weather or not!

The Green-eyed Monster also has an influence on some topics, though that has been more obvious on CN than IIS.

[jjjnettie]

And people wonder why I don't frequent here much any more.
Just walking away from the negativity.

[Allan_L]

Yes JJJ, we miss you (well at least I do). When I joined it used to be a fun place to hang out, you and Jen, and the rest of the gang. Fun in general chat. Not so much any more. :sadeyes:

[xstream]

Here, here! :sadeyes:

[04Stefan07]

Looks like I am not alone on here!

Have been bullied here a couple of times from the same person.

Tried to report it but was ignored on all occasions and no action was taken.

[Larryp]

I used to regularly post praise for members photographs, but was on several occasions, accused of just trying to increase my post count-whatever that is supposed to achieve!
Now I just read what others say and very seldom post anything myself.

[04Stefan07]

I also had a similar experience with "increasing post count". I started a thread ages ago which was aimed to be a fun and contributing game. It was taken down for that very reason, however there is a thread going around about what song you are listening to and unsure why that isn't seen as a "increasing post count" thread :shrug:

I could post every 3-5 minutes about the songs I have listened to in the past 3 hours but then might get a slap on my wrist for doing that! :lol:

[astroron]

I am going to go against the grain here,and say this is a tedious thread.
It gets dragged up every so often:(
If you feel a thread is not correct report it to the mods,but remember the mods have a life to lead, so complaining about every little seemed hurt may not get the outcome you require.
Stand up for yourself with contact by PM with the supposed hurter,if no joy BLOCK them,which by the way I have done on a few occasions.
No one is going to agree with you all the time , so just get on with playing your part on iceinspace.
The people who upset you will notice that you are not taking their bait and just move on.
This post is not aimed at anyone in particular,just my thoughts on this whole thread.
I hope I haven't upset anyone. ;)
Cheers:thumbsup:

[mental4astro]

Hi Ron,

I have to disagree with you there. To just report stuff, put people on the ignore list, and even just leave IIS does not stop the corrupting influence of bad behaviour. It has led to a lot of members abandoning IIS because of just reading the rubbish some people put up, even if they were not on the receiving end. That is why I've dredged up this thread again.

It may be a tedious thread, as you say, but sometimes a tedious thread revival is needed to put people's manners back in. You may have a thick skin to cope with abuse that is dished out. For me it is tedious to keep reading morons on their ego trip. :rolleyes:

Mods do their part. But WE need to do ours as members, and be courteous - especially when we disagree. Apathy to bad behaviour affects everyone here. This is where I'm coming from.

:thumbsup:

Alex.

[MortonH]

It's very easy to post something a bit over the top if you happen to be a bit cranky one day. Serial offenders, however, should be censured and/or banned from the site. Problem is, it can very subjective and something that offends one person may not even register with another.

Very sad to hear that some of our regulars have given up. Their contributions are missed.

[astroron]

I have scrolled through this whole thread, and except for about 4 posts,there was very little evidence saying what the actual bullying was.?
I think Alex, that I was one of the bullies you referred to,because I questioned something you wrote which did not seem right to me.?
I did PM you about it but you either did not see my PM or chose to ignore it as I never received any reply, yet you said people should try to sort things by personal message.?
Just because one can write something on a post or thread, does not mean that what you write should not be open to scrutiny or question.
I am not afraid to have anyone question what I write and am quite open to being shown that I am wrong.
Abuse via invective's is another thing altogether.
One persons bullying is another persons robust discussion.
I am sure there are many astronomy sites on the internet that are way more aggressive than iceinspace.
This bringing up of this thread every so often just adds to the unpleasantness,but in the long run adds nothing to the forum in general.
I am no more thick skinned than any other person but can just switch off from the perceived wrong doer or give them back as much as they do to me,then just block them.
Cheers:thumbsup:

[bigjoe]

Couln't agree more; though Ron does have some valid points.

It was for these reasons I walked away from IIS for about a year and yes

sometimes it can be awash with ego.

Some poor pathetic souls have nothing better to do but wait, then pounce on someones typo etc; SAD.

The negativity of slanging matches in some posts defies all reason.

I'm giving it another go, but I have other hobbies etc, so not too concerned if I have a gut full again and just leave.

Cheers all and lets leave our egos where they belong.

bigjoe.

[GrampianStars]

What a load of offensive PC "B..S.."
someone displaying a passive-aggressive personality disorder
dictating 2 others what they don't like 2 read is "Bullying"

"Help Help i'm being bullied BAN the open forum poster as I don't like the cut of their jib"

Phffft :rolleyes:
It's physically impossible unless your computer is under control by someone else i.e. via "teamviewer"

You have the power to NOT read what you don't like & even switch off altogether...

However everyone has the right to disagree & if you dont like robust and sometimes heated democracy at work and cannot accept it. leave.

[mental4astro]

Damn right it is!

This thread is 100% Passive Aggressive! :tasdevil:

It has to be.

The attitude of 'grow a pair, sister' is a destructive one. It has its place, don't get me wrong, in the RIGHT place it means life or death. But here is not the place for this approach.

"Help Help i'm being bullied BAN the open forum poster as I don't like the cut of their jib" Sorry mate, that shows a lack of understanding of what I am talking about. I am not talking about a broken finger nail. I am all for robust discussion. But to ridicule, stomp, lambast, you really think that is a mature attitude?

If all you see is sissy attitudes regarding what bullying is, I feel sorry for you. If you see it as weakness for taking it on, I feel sorry for you.

I had this attitude once too. What will it take for you to come to see it is not a great one to hold? Nothing weak in it. I managed to stop a mate taking his life because I changed too. He named his first son after me five years later.

'Bullying' has a lot of sissy connotations. It is much broader than just an eight letter word. Cowardice in espousing it is the real sissy.

[04Stefan07]

@bigjoe

"It was for these reasons I walked away from IIS for about a year and yes"

I felt the same way but the only thing that stopped me from leaving was a bunch of people on here who are really nice, genuine and like to show their passion and share their hobby with the rest of us.

There are only literally a couple on here who have ruined my experience and now I sometimes think twice if I should make a post or not. I would like to keep putting things up for sale but have slowed down recently.

When it comes to expressing an opinion I wish we could without being shut down or thinking if I don't think like this person then I am wrong. We all have a right to say what we feel or think.

How the forum is run, in my honest opinion I am not a fan of.

[mental4astro]

Look, one thing EVERYONE who participates here shares one thing in common - you do so not to expect to be insulted, ridiculed, humiliated, railroaded or cliqued out.

Those who just visit the site don't expect to encounter disgraceful behavior from a supposedly enlightened group.

So why the hell do some insist on this?

Freaking simple. What is there not to understand?

[astroron]

One thing you have failed to do is show where this has happened.
All this is your opinion which you are vigorously pushing without little or no evidence.

I note that you have been selective to who you reply to.
Not answering my post just like you ignored my PM all those years ago when you started on this campaign.
All this large and coloured letters don't make any difference to altering any ones opinion
We have on this site well over 14,000 members who seem to get along just fine without any problems.
If they do have any problems they sort them out then get on with life.
Astronomy must be bad round your neck of the woods as you seem to have nothing to do but beat this drum.
Give it away and go and do something useful.
Cheers:thumbsup:

[GeoffW1]

Now Ron,

To haul up my colours, I'm with Alex, so to it.....

Is this cranky stuff above an attempt by you to say Alex can't have an opinion of his own and should smartly fall into line with yours ? Getting close to bullying Alex are you? If not, then what ? I'd say your last two sentences are particularly insulting and personal.

Geoff

[xelasnave]

Geoff you seem to be bullying Ron.

I noticed this thread because of recent action and have only now read it.
I have never noticed bullying here.
Some people can be pushy but often that is just their way.

I come from an age when bullying was physical so I find it hard to understand why if one feels they are being bullied via a keyboard to simply ignore it.

If someone is bent on attacking you by ignoring them you deny them their sadistic pleasure of seeing you respond with anguish.

To turn the cheek is a powerful tool but few have the strenght in character to manage the problem this way because pride prevents them letting another have the last word. If you know you are right that does not mean you have to make that public to be validated.

[astroron]

That's your opinion,which you're entitled to have.
Cheers

[astroron]

PS I laid out my Argument for Alex to comment (refute) he chose not to, but has since PM'd me.
I will no longer continue in this thread as I have said all I am going to say.
I was surprised that you would call me a bully,even though I laid all my arguments out for all to see.
You are obviously of the mind that a person can post what he likes but is not be open to debate if what he says is controversial, which the accusations of bullying is.
Cheers

[GeoffW1]

Well Ron,

I didn't, actually, I asked if YOU thought you might be getting close to it, then said how your closing sentences looked to me. I know I'd be angry if you had suggested those things to me.

As to Alex' comment, I doubt you CAN be bullied, and that is meant as a sort-of-compliment.

Geoff

[iceman]

I'm choosing to close this thread now because it's not serving a purpose at the moment except to get people MORE angry as people go around and around in circles stating their same arguments or arguing for the sake of it.

I think the gist of the thread is well understood, well intendedm and people can still read it while it's locked.