The future of astronomy???

[wavelandscott]

I was reading in another astronomy forum (Astromart) the answers to a posted question asking participants about their age...

I was a bit surpirsed to read that most of the participants are north of 50!:eyepop:

While it does help explain some of the equipment choices that they recommend, it does raise a bit of concern about the future of this hobby...

Testosterone laced and growing gray/grey fast does not point to a long term sustainable population...for a hobby or organization

This got me thinking about myself...while I am not 50 (yet) I am aging quickly and many of the folks I've met in this hobby are approximately my age (or more) and predomoninately male...:scared:

Maybe I should not have been surprised to read the responses...Yes, this hobby does require an amount of disposable income so it might be skewed to older folks...and/or maybe we are all that is left of the youg folks influenced by the great "space race" period of world politics...or worse, is the akin to "lawn bowls" for hobbiest? Is astronomy where "old" computer gamers go to finish out their existence after the thrill of gaming is gone?

I don't know :shrug: ...So I will ask you all what you think...

Is astronomy a hobby that can only appeal to middle age + males?

If so, is that okay?

If not, what can/should we do about it?

[BobsYourUncle]

I don't think so - I'm not middle age, and I'm interested. But I guess it's not everyone's cup of tea, I've got a younger brother (18) who's not really interested at all.

Astronomy probably doesn't even enter a lot of people's minds when looking for something to do in their spare time. There isn't much exposure, the space race isn't what it used to be in that regard, and there's other things to do that are probably cheaper and easier to get in to (computer games, so much TV, and going to the gym is getting pretty popular).

I also think a lot of people don't realise how much you can see - I noticed this when I got my scope (last week, i'm very much a newbie) and showed people saturn, jupiter and the orion nebula (probably the best things to look at with this damn full moon). They were amazed, they said they just expected to be able to see stars, and had no idea they'd be able to see planets that 'close'. It seems everyone says "oh my god!" when they first see saturn. I think a lot of people could be interested, but just need a little push first.

[[1ponders]]

I think part of the problem is the need for a different sort of excitement when your younger, you remember partying all night (well maybe not :lol: ), waking up at midday with a dead bear in your mouth. That sort of excitement. I think as you get older sometimes you like your excitement in more subtle forms. A little bit like, when younger any turps will do (exaggerated just a little bit but not by much) then as you age your tastes become more discerning, until you get to :scared: middle age :lol: only the finest subtlest excitements will do.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it :nerd:

[Starkler]

The recent poll on observing experience indicates that many of us were interested as youngens and then picked it up again in later life. As said above, young adults in general tend to look to less subtle forms of stimulation such as partying, drinking, sports and chasing women ;)

My two favourite pastimes are astronomy and fly fishing for trout. Both of which relate to communing with nature and escaping the microcosm of daily life with its petty issues and appreciating the bigger picture.

I wonder how many people outside our hobby when away from the city even bother to look upwards at night and appreciate the beauty of the night sky?

Whatever way you cut it, I think most people outside our hobby would consider it a bit nerdy.

[BobsYourUncle]

Who says you can't do both? :whistle:

I guess it would seem a bit nerdy, but I don't think that would really turn people away if they were interested, and I think that 'nerdy' and 'geeky' are starting to lose their negative connotations a bit (at least in the post-high school age group). Computer/video games were nerdy, but they're really starting to take off. Computer games are way more accessible though, in terms of cost and availability - there are way more places that you can buy a computer game than where you can buy a telescope. It's also usually easier to 'try before you buy' too (at a friend's place, in store, etc). Maybe people have shorter attention spans too, I don't know - but they're the ones missing out :thumbsup:

[fringe_dweller]

US S&T had a readers poll with similar results a number of years ago, that also sent out shockwaves and rang alarm bells. I remember being shocked that middle aged males made up like 80/90 + % of AA's.
I have mentioned this before here a couple of times, they blamed game consoles and computers for these results.
I wonder tho - this age group grew up when the streetlights used to go off at varying times of the night, usually around midnight, before litigation was a national past time and a path to monetary success.
I wonder how much of an influence the nightly appearence of dark skies this had on forming young minds back then?
Also I agree, astronomy was the last thing on my mind say in my 20's, which I dont remember too much of anyway :P was just a blur.
I would agree that many newcomers come into the fold as they age a bit and settle down, as well as people that were interested when young returning after the procreation, need for speed, and mind bending pursuits subsides? (when their bodies cant handle excessive substance abuse anymore) .
Plus I personally think that astronomy is a very tough and antisocial hobby, its hard to convince people to leave the warm pub/tv/game to stand in the cold and squint down a drainpipe at a fuzzy/dot that takes years of practice to master fully.
And its only so often you can show them the moon and bright planets - what is needed is a new spectacle - a massive great comet usually can do the trick?

[Starkler]

I reckon the discovery of an asteroid on an imminent path to hitting the earth would do wonders for telescope sales ;)

[Dave47tuc]

Well in a word “yes” in a way! I have spoken to many kids over the years on astronomy.
They always seem keen. But I see, as they get older there’s so many other hobbies or sports to choose from, astronomy takes a back seat.
Maybe they pick it up, as they get older. Yes I do see astronomy as an older persons hobby and mainly males.
I think females seem to love astronomy as much as males but maybe pear pressure from girlfriends puts them off astronomy.
I think the Internet has done a lot to damage and also enhance astronomy. One can learn so much on the Internet about astronomy. Also Planetarium programs show people the sky without leaving the warmth of the lounge room. You and me may go outside a lot but a young person today may not.
Want to watch a solar eclipse? It’s on the net. Want to see Mars? Forget a telescope look at NASA’s web site. Its ok for you and me as I said to go outside but you don’t really need too. When I was young if it was in the newspapers or a magazine I went outside to look for myself. Man walked on the Moon. I lay in my backyard and wondered if they where looking back at me!

Also I see visual astronomy a dying art. Imaging has come so far and is so available now.
The images taken today are much better than what you can see for yourself.
For me I like the natural view. I think it’s amazing what I can see in a telescope.
But I have seen kids today say is that it! I’ve seen a better picture in a book or on the net.
Also it’s so easy now. Buy a Go To telescope press a button and find any object you like.
That maybe cool for a while but pushing buttons can be boring quick.
I learned to read on an object and find it for myself. I think that makes me appreciate it more. Maybe today push a button take a picture and look at it on my computer screen!
Things change, and astronomy has a lot over the past 20 years.
I don’t think its dead but today’s kids will see it a lot different to you and me.

Also I see astronomy like art. I see the beauty the immense size and the wonder of it all.
I lay out under a dark sky and let my mind go and it’ just so amazing.
Then in the far distance I hear a car doing a burn out. Go figure.

:)

[mickoking]

I believe it is many of us established amateur astronomers that make the hobby seem boring and un appealing to the young. I believe there is a perception that you need to spend megabucks to indulge in astronomy. How many times have you read a thread on this forum when a newbie states 'you can't see much thru a telescope that's why I want to do imaging,? Imaging is good but for a kid it is $$$$$$$$$$$$ while there is this fallacy that visual astronomy (relatively cheap) presents only vague dim images.

I have been interested in this great hobby since I was 6 or 7 and have owned a telescope almost continiously since I was 11. At 36 I am still younger than most amateur astronomers and totally dismiss the opinion that astronomy is an old persons and /or geeks hobby.

Dats my two bob's worth ;)

[cjmarsh81]

I don't think it is an 'older persons' hobby although they probably do make up the majority of astronomers. I am only 24 and just starting out in astronomy and I love what I can see through my Dob. Before I got my scope in January I had never looked through a scope and had no idea of what was visible.

If you want a larger following of the hobby you need to start young. To be honest in my entire schooling the only thing astro related was when I was in 3rd or 4th grade we had to memorise the names of the planets. Stars/Planets/Nebulae was never mentioned again in primary or secondary school.

I only got into astronomy as I was with my father buying some binoculars when I looked over and saw a telescope and was interested in it. Before this I had never thought of looking up. If I had known what was visible I would have got into it years ago.

[rogerg]

Hmm, an interesting topic. I'm 26.

It's been evident to me right from the first time I turned up to an astronomy club meeting that the majority of amatuer astronomers were 50+ and male. Since then I've come to know a handlful of fellow AA's under 35 and only one my age and one who's younger.

It's only become recently apparent to me how anti-social the hobby is, so I agree with fringe_dweller on that respect. I recently bought a place and moved in with my girlfriend. After moving the observatory here I realised how astronomy really is a one man sport if you're keenly observing/photographing. There's a lot of concentration required, always lots to do (taking images, tracking, processing, planning, de-dewing, whatever it be) and it's not like there's 2 eyepieces on the telescope so more than one person can go wow at the same thing (taking turns isn't quite the same).

If not doing "serious observing" like all night imaging etc then the hobby becomes more social:

When we have friends over (our age group) they are always keen to spend some time viewing and see the setup, most are quite interested through the end of the night. I think one big draw card is that I base much of my setup around computers/electronics (coming from a computing background) so half the interest is in computers and half in astronomy, so with most young people having some knowledge/interest in computers it's easy for them to see conversation & involvement there. Also they can see the colour images after a 60s exposure and everyone in the observatory gets to go wow at that. Take those same people to a viewing night where there's 10 8" dobs, I doubt there would be much interest at all.

When observing at my observatory with the other "young" keen AA's I know, observing usually takes a second seat to good music, chatting about anything and eating/drinking. That usually works out really well and is something more young people would be interested in. Dim white light is the norm (how else can you easily see the beer & food) not red (to indicate the level of seriousness we take on those nights). But when you see the "public face" of astronomy clubs, you don't see U2/INXS/REM being played from a 8 speaker surround sound system with a nice computer driven 'scope setup and some drink & food, you see old people using DOB's on a school oval and talking about lots of geeky stuff like magnitudes, NGC's, SAO's, etc.

There's a few other quick points: a) I know that if a young person turned up to a "no-viewing" meeting of the local astronomy club, they'd never go back for many reasons. b) I know how little time people in my age group have between work, saving for their first house, holidaying, etc and that time doesn't come back until the kids leave home. c) The hobby requires reasonable dedication when there are many other things to dedicate time and money to.

Dob owners, older (than me) people, etc don't take offence - I get along with you all just fine! and I love those big Dobs! I just think I can see what other poeple my age might see "first impressions".

Lots more I could say on the topic - it's an interesting one that has many aspects. I wish I could incourage more younger people in to the local club & hobby, it's good having people similar aged and right now they're as rare as hens teeth.

Roger.

[Sonia]

Excuse me! But ill have you know im a 19 yr old female, who loves astronomy.

I think its something you like or you don't, male or female. And i don't think it matters what age you are either. 5 year olds will look at the sky and ask "What's that mummy?"

I did an OU course and there were more females, than males who did the course. I think it appeals to anyone at any age.

You dont necessarily need a telescope to be into astronomy. You don't need to be a whizz kid, to do astronomy.

Ok, so maybe there isnt as many females into astronomy as males, but look into the future and there could be more females than the males.

[Calin]

I've gotten back into astronomy after half a life away doing other things, not related to drug, sex and crap head-banging music. Like all hobbies it requires some committment, and astronomy isn't exactly one that brings instant gratification. This hobby like a lot of hobbies requires patience, time and study and some skill. These attributes aren't exactly a high priority for most younger folk, I don't think the 'art' is dying out, because most people discover it or re-discover it later in life, after all if you took a poll throughout most of the last 30 years or so most of the hobbiests were over 30, the majority over 50, same as today.

This smacks me as fairly static, if anything there are more people doing it now than ever, granted the population has increased as well (no pun intended), almost all hobbies are enjoying increased interest due to higher expendable income, and time ... although a lot of 'polls' say we don't have time, working too hard to pay off mortgages, HECS fees, kids, etc.... This hobby doesn't require or demand physical fitness, though lugging the 'kit' around the back paddock might qualify. The group of 50+ now, could be said to be past their prime and looking for something less physically demanding than say ... golf ... :rofl:It's done at night (mostly) and depending on your interest all day or all weekend. I'm looking foward to spending my time doing something I enjoy that is proven to be sustainable through out a person's life and doesn't 'die out' with the passing of time and age like a lot of 'hobbies'. Rock on the 50+s, I will be there all too soon, keep a rocking chair warm and can I use your zimmer frame to prop-up me scope ....:D

[mickoking]

I like crap head banging music :D


Seriously,Astronomy rocks and youth is it's future. lets not bore them to death :thumbsup:

[wavelandscott]

Great to see so many posts!

I am enjoying following everyone's thoughts and comments. I am especially glad to read of several posts from folks younger than me...

Many good points made about the sociability (or lack of) from many in this hobby...

Remember, it takes a lot of different people to make a village (er hobby and good forum) so keep up the good work all in enjoying the skies!

[[1ponders]]

Onya Sonia. You tell 'em. Where's jjjnettie? I'm surprised she hasn't popped on by. And Beth and Rowena and Venus and Seven and Anna and..........And I'll put it in for the little 'uns (pre girl/boy, car drink surf etc age)

We have a group at the Mapleton School called the Cosmic Kids Club. There are about 30 kids from year 3 up to year 7. Why only 30, because it's restricted to that number. There are heaps of kids waiting to get into it. they have a ball with it. So I'd say young kids, given the chance to look, love it. Boys and Girls. We start to lose them at that difficult stage, 13-"grow up your an adult now" (in the voice of your favourite mother or father figure).

[Gargoyle_Steve]

I went to my first astro "group" night recently as astroron's place - last new moon - and all I heard all night was "a young bloke like you ...... ".

I'm 42 in 3 months time!!
(Great night for making a guy feel young!) ;)

Still, out of a total of 16 people in attendance we had Chris (Xeelee) there, a full fledged amateur astronomer in his own right, and Wes (Zubenel) had his 4 young children there skywatching too, youth therefore representing about 30% of the group.

Lets hope those kind of stats manage to carry over as more younger folks do get into this hobby.

It probably starts with us talking to them, but better still showing them, pasing the wonder and excitement as best we can without boring them to death with letters and numbers and stuff that sounds like school work!

BTW Love the idea of the school group Paul, wish there had been something like that at my school when I grew up.

[mickoking]

When I purchased my 120mm refractor 4 or 5 years ago It dawned on me that I wasn't going to get too much money from selling my old 200mm Meade Dob so I donated it to a primary school. Apparently the reaction was fantastic with parents and teachers alike taking time to show the kids the night sky. Sadly I can't remember what school I donated it to :P

I now have a spare 250 mm GSO Dob. I will donate that to my daughters Primary school when I have done it up. And I will help show the kids the wonders of the universe.

[iceman]

Excellent thread.

Funny, Rod and I first went to SPSP last year (2005) and it was our first major star party.. Rod's writeup of the event sums up some of the thoughts in this thread:


It is definitely a male-oriented hobby, but it doesn't have to be.. i think it's just the stereotype that females are busy raising children while the blokes are in the backyard with the telescope. Or, males are more willing to put up with cold nights, freezing fingers, frustration of clouds, dew, etc. It's definitely an anti-social hobby in the field, apart from star parties/observing groups.
At least forums like IceInSpace make it MORE social.. bring people together, make it easier for people with the same interest to share their experiences.

I think newbies in the hobby could easily get turned off by the anti-social aspect of it.. that's why we need to get them onto forums like this, and into social observing groups. It's just so much more fun to observe with people of like-mind.

The money aspect has been mentioned a couple of times, but I think it's an important part as well - at least in the past. It can be a very expensive hobby, and typically the people with the disposable income able to spend on astronomy, are males over 50.

It's getting cheaper though, with 8" dobs under $400, but it's still a lot to spend for someone who hates the cold, hates being tired and gets frustrated by clouds.

I'm only 31, so i'm definitely young in this hobby, but i'm seeing more young people these-days, so hopefully not all is lost. The planetary missions by NASA are getting more people into the hobby, shuttle launches and other visual spectacles are always a great drawcard.

[leon]

A good question, but the answer is difficult to put the finger on and say, it's one reason or another. As mentioned in some of the replies it definitly is a one person sport, and it is usually done at the most oddest of times, in darkness and in cold damp conditions .
I think you really have to have a passion for Astronomy otherwise it can quite easily fizzle out, and iv'e seen that happen on a number of occasions with friends that showed real interest at the beginning.
I also think that some people get dissappointed with what they can really see on their first night out, they have seen the books and all those great photo's in the sapce magazines and expect to also see through there newly aquired telescope.
How many times don't we see written on a cheap super market scope that the universe is at your finger tips with 400 plus magnification through the crappy eyepiece they supply with it.
As we all know Astronomy is a learning experience and it all takes time, time that a lot of people don't want to give.
So we are left with the passionate few who keep trying and learning and then have success, and love it.
My children, now grown adults were never interested, yea, they loved to see the pictures, but never wanted to get out of bed to help get them.
Also my wife thinks that it is great that i do something i really love, and also likes the end results, but she too would prefer the electric blanket rather than standing out side on a frosty night.
And thats fine, we are all different and all like different things, and some of us just love astronomy.
:thumbsup:

leon

[Sonia]

While the majority of astronomy are men, the percentage of women entering the field of astronomy is growing.

Both women and men are capable of doing excellent science. You should never let the fact that there are more men in scientific fields ever slow you down, or stop you.

Women do work in a different ways to men. It is hard to list the differences without incurring in the wrath of some. Because men and women are different that the best way forward to physics is collaboration if there are no women in the field. Or if there are so few that they spend more time thinking how to be integrated and avoid sexism than working. So, how do we attract more women to Physics?

[Starkler]

I agree with what Leons says here. i wonder if it is a phase of life thing that makes one stop to smell the roses so to speak.
Rogerg made comment about the imaging side and the application of computer imaging technology appealing more to the young. Is this a case of just using a cool application of technology rather than a true love of the beauty of the night sky? I have seen people spend fortunes on high-fi equipment and stressing about having the best, so much so that they forget its real purpose which is enjoying the music.

/me dons his flameproof suit.

[mickoking]

That is so true. Many of us (including my self at times) get so involved with the peripheral aspects of astronomy we seem to loose track what got us into astronomy in the first place. Reading thru the Astronomy magazines there are numerous glossy ad's of gleaming new telescopes and accesories promising astronomical nirvana. While the advertisments are great for many of us who are constantly on the look out for the latest and greatest for some it creates the unrealistic impression that you have to own x,y and z pieces of equipment to be a 'real' astronomer. Then our budding star gazer bows out to do something 'easier' more accesable and cheaper. The commercialisation of our hobby is a double edged sword for sure.

With regards to the unsocial aspect of amateur astronomy for me thats its big advantage, to be under the stars with a telescope observing is a fantastic solitary pursuit. If you wan't to get social you can join a club but for the youngsters thats the rub. Membership of astronomical societies tends to be somewhat mature and serious (and sometimes political) not the scene for many larrakin teens.

Whats the solution? Hard to say but a good start would be to encourage astronomy at school. In all my years at school I don't recall doing a single lesson in astronomy. To put it another way 100% of my schooling was based on one small blue planet. Ultimatley it is up to us passionate astronomers to make astronomy work for the younger people. I hope I can help in my small way too :thumbsup:

[Miaplacidus]

Interesting thread, interesting comments. Answers partly depend on what you call astronomy. When I was a kid I remember our family sitting in our backyard in suburban Melbourne watching meteor showers. The skies were definitely darker and blacker back then. Next impetus was waiting for the Flying Doctor on outback airstrips in the middle of the night. Darker skies, like being in a cave studded with diamonds. As light pollution takes hold I suspect people will have fewer opportunities to be simply dumb-struck by the night sky.

Of course, the hours of observation are hostile to young families. Young people are poor and impatient, and have lots of distractions. Middle-aged people like their creature comforts. Eyes grow old, joints feel the cold. Personally, I find it amazing that anyone tries their hand at this hobby.

Happy Easter, everyone.

[rogerg]

Definitely there is a "cool application of technology" aspect to what I was saying there, no doubt about it. But there are people that are in amateur astronomy (and have been for many many years) partly for the "cool gear" (including technology, optics, etc) and only partly for the actual observing, so I see it as another entry point in to the hobby - it's easy to get hooked on that "cool gear" then find you can get some really cool images of the stars and even enjoy the viewing, and hence continue with the hobby.

Roger.

[Stu]

Needs a big event to inspire you and money to burn. :)

Me - 1980something and haileys comet. Was always interested since then.
But I didn't become an "Amateur Astronomer" until I grew out of the headbanger/techo-rave stage and sold all my music stuff to buy a scope. So I think that generally most astronomers have settled down so to speak.

I'm not saying it's lawn bowls. That's AFTER astronomy. :lol:

[ving]

I go to star parties cause hanging out with all the oldies makes me feel young :P

really, anyone of any age could be interested... i was interested when i was 7ish. but of course lost interest as other things came along....
It takes a certain type of person to be interested me thinks. a person who doenst mind being a bit of an outcast, doenst mind a bit of solitude, and certainly someone with an interest in the unknown.
I have a problem tho with calling what i am interested in "astronomy" tho... people go to university to study that. I am a meare sky watcher :)

hmm... give the type of person this hobby attracts it'd seem interest would be more than likely to come with age. of course this is not to stereotype :)

[Blue Skies]

Rogerg and I belong to the some society and while Roger talked about age differences he didn't mention the number of active women in the society, including myself. I always remember David Malin's surprise at finding so many women active in astronomy in Perth when he came over for the local Astrofest a few years back. Mind you, they are mainly on the older side, but there are a few younger ones (although one of them is currently in Sydney doing her PhD in astronomy right now). None of us are ever put down or made to feel out of place. If women really want to be there and active in the hobby they will, so if they're not there... :shrug:

[Spaced Out]

The way I see it the best thing is an early introduction. Take the kids out on a clear summers night(Not the middle of winter) and show them around point out a few constellations planets etc. If you make a good impression "THEY WILL BE BACK". It might have taken 30 years but I never forgot.
Computers are the way of the future for astronomy but you still need that trusty telescope and lets face it Meade, Celestron etc etc haven't gone broke yet. They still sell telescopes and there's plenty buying them.
She'll be right.:thumbsup:

[mickoking]

Good call ving that sounds like me :thumbsup:

[rogerg]

You're right, there is a strong following by women in our club, I didn't think about that side of the discussion. And after reading all the other posts on this thread and thinking about it all, I think it all comes down to :shrug: . That is, if people want to be in it they will, if they don't they won't, such is life. Just like I'm not about to take up a hobby of lawn bowls because someone wants more young people in the sport. :)

Roger.

[ving]

ask davo mick, I am always right ;)
:P

[tornado33]

I first got into astronomy as a 10 year old whenb my parents bought me a 4.5 inch Newtonian. Another sport of astronomy happened when Halleys Comet came and at the same time Id saved up some money from my first job for my 10 inch newtonian. The purchase of my first DSLR camera again revived interest in astronomy (astrophotography) ever since. Im now 41 years old.
Scott

[fringe_dweller]

Maybe youngsters and the Ladies just dont fill out Polls and questionairs? :shrug:
anyway the universe certainly has a future? :P oh oh shouldnt of mentioned the war :rolleyes: