ANZAC diggers labelled 'bludgers, thieves'

[Hans Tucker]

Sad that some individuals like to make a name for themselves...Australian soldiers were no saints but bludgers...and not up to the same standard as New Zealand soldiers...sorry but these claims are insulting and a right way to go to cause a divide between our two nations.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/bludger-remark-angers-the-rsl/story-e6freuzr-1226335439958

[Stardrifter_WA]

Hans, people are entitled to their opinions, so comments like this don't bother me, as there will "always" be people who have differing opinions; and that is a good thing. We live in a "so-called" democracy and part of this democracy is being allowed to express one's opinions; and be thankfully we can do that anyway. I will always defend peoples rights to their opinions, even if I do not agree with them. Besides, the people making these comments weren't there anyway and I can only feel sad for them coming to such conclusions in the first place.

Furthermore, getting upset about such statements just give these people the attention they seek. By reacting to these comments just continue to inflame the situation. Just ignore it and it goes away. The kiwi-oz rivalry is nothing new and I don't buy into it anyway.

Cheers Pete

[ballaratdragons]

:mad2:

I left a comment. I hope it gets published.

[AstralTraveller]

This is the Tele right? :lol: Probably just try to boost sal... ah - numbers at the dawn service. How very patriotic of them. ;)

[mill]

Left a comment too.

[Hans Tucker]

True Pete, people do have right to their opinion but with free speech comes some level of responsibility and rantings like this can't really go without comment..the dead cannot defend themselves so we, who remember them and believe in what they fought and sacrificed for have a duty to defend them. I guess what really got to me was:

"Freelance journalist Josie McNaught said she was "so sick of hearing that ridiculous cliche'' that Australia's national identity was forged at Gallipoli."

What really is it to New Zealand what our identity was forged on, it doesn't impact on their country.

Agreed this shouldn't be esculated above the shock jock journalism that it is.

[traveller]

Agreed, pathetic attempt at increasing sales.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Good comment Hans and I do agree with you.

They are entitled to their opinion, even if they are wrong.

I think that our diggers record speaks for itself and besides, the fact that we know and remember them is all that is important. We hold them dear to our hearts, so who cares what others think? I don't, in this case, as I just think those comments come from the types of people who are bullies! Just makes me feel sad that someone can denigrate others like that, as we certainly don't denigrate their soldiers, at least I don't and never would.

As for our identity being forged at Gallipoli, I certainly hope not, as our identity is much deeper than this, I think. I certainly don't think my identity is based on stupid and pointless wars. Yes, our soldiers did their duty and paid a heavy price and we should never forget that sacrifice; they are heroes, even though they died in vain.

No, our identity wasn't forged at Gallipoli, but it was certainly and clearly demonstrated!

[BPO]

The New Zealand population is quite tiny, but not that small. Don't go judging all of us based upon the comments of some person of whom even we've never heard.

[avandonk]

Both Australian and New Zealand troops went to WW1 under the Empire or British flag.

The ones who made it back decided from then on they would only fight under their own respective flags hence the ANZAC tag.

Both Aussie and NZ troops were held in low esteem by the British commanders as they had 'no sense of discipline'. This is shorthand for 'will not blindly follow idiotic orders issued by morons'.

Anyone in their armchair that now judges these fine boys is a fool.

I posted this a while ago

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=8681&highlight=ross+smith


Keith and Ross Smith had a new found ideal of national identity that was purely Australian. They were not alone. Australia was no longer a mere outpost of Britain. Federation may have joined us in a legal sense but it was the loss of so many fine young men that bound this nation together.

It is only after a great loss that reality forces you to see what you really possess and who you really are.

I could go on.

By the way the AIF troops fought under the Red Ensign in WW2 not the Australian flag. Check out the colour of the Changi Flag! The Australian flag (the Blue Ensign) as we now know it was only made official in about 1953 by Parliament.

Bert

[jenchris]

Two things instantly bring a tear to my eye.
The poem "Lest we Forget"
The hymn "For those in peril on the sea."

They always have.
Our boys fought as a team, with courage and resolution.
In Vietnam the Americans always felt safer if there was an Aussie at their back. It wasn't only the L1A1 that did it either. Long Tan proved that.

I spent 12 years in the Navy. I felt privileged to do so.

If anyone derides our effort, I smile because they are ignorant. I shake my head because they are fools and I tell them they are lucky our boys died for them because if they were here now, they'd look at them and not bother.

[JohnG]

My father was in the RAN during WW2 and served on the cruisers HMAS Canberra and Shropshire, the official Naval flag then was the British White Ensign, he told me that whenever they went into action that the Australia Blue Ensign was always broken out as the official battle flag.

My own time in the Navy was served under the current Australian White Ensign.

Cheers

[avandonk]

John as far as I know in WW2 the Blue Ensign was the RAAF, the Red Ensign was the AIF and the White Ensign was the Navy.

It still is today.

Bert

[JohnG]

You are correct Bert, what I was replying to was that the Naval White Ensign at the time was the British one, the Union Jack in the upper corner on a white background with the red cross. The current Australian White Ensign is the Union Jack in the upper corner on a white background with the Southern Cross and Federation Star in blue.

Sorry for the confusion, hope I explained that a bit better.

Cheers

[avandonk]

I did not know that John. So our navy showed a pure British flag? With the cross of saint George no less!

I just did a google and you are also correct! The Ensign on the right was used until 1967!

The one on the left is the current one. No wonder we are confused.

Bert

[JohnG]

When I joined the RAN in 1966, the British White Ensign was still in use, changed over to the current one in 1967 I believe. New Zealand also changed their White Ensign to the current one in 1968 after also using the British White Ensign.

Cheers

[avandonk]

John my first father in law served on HMS Vendetta in WW2. He never spoke about it apart from the fun they managed to have. Have I got the designation correct for the ship? It wasn't HMSS was it?


Bert

[Gem]

Regardless of whether there were (or were not) some bludgers or scundrels... in WW1 they had massively high casualty rates since the British sent in colonials to some of the hardest places. Regardless of how colourful some individuals might be - not many came back. All came back changed. Many (my great-grandfather included) received wounds at Gallipoli that they carried for life.
I served in a more recent conflict, and of all the coalition air forces we had to the highest mission achievement rate of any coalition country... and the oldest aircraft. So many people from other countries made the comments that we achieved results far beyond expectations with so little resources.

My opinion of Australian (and New Zealander) troops will always be the highest.

Well done to all diggers on this ANZAC Day week.

Grant
ex-RAAF

[AstralTraveller]

Fair comment. And I hope we aren't judged by the quality of some of our media.

[deejayvee]

I'm reading the book mentioned "Bullybeef and Balderdash" at the moment. It's quite interesting. The author is seeking to dispel some of the mythology that has arisen regarding the ANZACs in WW1. As he says, the AIF's achievements are substantial and don't require the mythology to be impressive.

[Baddad]

Quote from Avandonk,


Both Aussie and NZ troops were held in low esteem by the British commanders as they had 'no sense of discipline'. This is shorthand for 'will not blindly follow idiotic orders issued by morons'.

The landing on Apr 25 1915 is considered to be one of the biggest military blunders ever.

The British have a history of such up until recent times. Officers were selected from "upper class" whether competent or not.

I have to agree with You Bert.

On the thread issue. I have personally had time with NZ troops and there are some very nasty stories about some NZ troops that I have witnessed. Most of them are trustworthy. Its just a minority that gives them a bad name.

Cheers

[avandonk]

Eric Bogle is a mate of mine. He wrote this song a long time ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUzQ6Am-bbc


It is a version that appeals to all sides.

Here is Eric himself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG99wB8moRA&feature=related

here is another great song


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=471-ucVd7o0&feature=related

Bert

[JohnG]

Hi Bert

Official designation for commissioned Australian warships is HMAS (His/Her Majesties Australian Ship). Uncommissioned ships now use the designation of ADFS until intergration with the fleet.

HMAS Vendetta (1) was a V&W Class destroyer, she served with distinction during WW2.

My father very rarely ever spoke about the sinking of HMAS Canberra, he suffered a lot of PTSD later in life.

Cheers

[Paul Haese]

I bet Jock Anderson (aka the maker of the statement in the article) can expect a special search next time he comes here. Cavity searches can sometimes go wrong. :P

As a former digger and a descendant of a great grandfather who died at Ypres and a grand father who was a rat of Tobruk I guess I should be insulted but I know there are just people out there who are jealous of Aussies and this is just further evidence of this. Maybe Aussies were lazy but they still died in high numbers and I reckon this must show how courageous these men were.

Don't worry about this article, just think about Jock's little inspection. :lol:

[avandonk]

Dare I say this but they are inspecting the wrong a-hole!


Bert

[Stardrifter_WA]

Who cares what others think! It is what we think that is important.

Besides, who believes everything that a "journalist" has to say. Frankly, I believe less than half and doubt the rest anyway. So, why such a fuss over what a journo says? :question:

Now, if a prominent Aussie said the same thing, then the outrage would be justified.

[Baddad]

Over the years I have attended more than my share of Dawn Services.
I have met and spoken with many old retired soldiers.
Their stories confirm what journos have to say, and that is:

The Germans, Turks and later the Japs never liked to take on an Aussie force. They'd much rather fight Yanks or British or anyone else. They claimed that the Aussies employed unconventional strategies. They were unfair and conjuctioned with Anzac courage the Anzacs were a formidable opponent.

Example:

German force lead by tanks. The Anzacs opened up their line and allowed the tanks through. Closing again behind the tanks. Separating the following German infantry from the tanks. This strategy made the tanks ineffective. The German infantry was clobbered. The tanks ended in "no mans' land, at the mercy of artillary.

After seeing much of the Nurnburg (Neurenberg) trial clips and documentries. Where the Nazi war criminals were fronted for their crimes. I am surprised that they called the Anzac soldiers unfair.

I recently returned from Germany. The German people today are a very good people. They are embarrassed to be the surviving populace of such a violent and sadistic military in the past. There are even laws in place that really surprised me. These laws effectively prevent anyone from denying that the holocaust took place, and a number of other issues to make the past Nazi Rule a bad time in German History.

Visiting the old concentration camps was a creepy experience.
I wont enter into that here. To have experienced it on a TV set is moderately tolerable. To see the camps first hand. I get goose bumps.

No body wins a war. There are huge losses on both sides.
These Kiwis who are making these accusations obviously have never experienced anything like a battle. Their info is poorly obtained. Their not well informed at all. In my mind they have some kind of sour-grape mentality towards the Aussies and I would say they are a minority.

The better Kiwi people are very loyal and trusting to the Anzac tradition. I have never found a bad Kiwi personally. I have only heard about them.

Cheers