Membership Cliques

[rat156]

Hi All,

Well I hate to start a thread in the General Chat section, it usually doesn't last that long, but here goes...

There's a thread that's been recently closed in which a poster brought up a closed club feeling that new members can experience when there's a few people who contribute most of the traffic on the forum.

Well, that doesn't only happen to new members, it happens to old ones too. There have been many times on this site when I have felt that I was not welcome, infact on more than one occasion I have been abused to the point that I have given up posting. Sometimes by the site admin as well as the moderators, no apology has ever been received, perhaps it wasn't warranted, but if the positions were reversed I certainly would have made more of an effort, ce la vie. It doesn't really worry me, but now I generally only post when I have something specific to say. I don't publish my photos here anymore as they seem to be unappreciated, obviously I am not one of the clique, again I don't really give a fat rat's clacker, I do the hobby for my own reasons, not for the gratuitous "great picture" posts from people who post that to every other picture. When I do post a picture here I would want people to suggest ways to make it better, but no-one seems to post anything, so you get the feeling that they don't care, the pictures aren't perfect, so you get this exclusivity feeling.

I just re-read this and it sounds like a big bleat, it's not, it's just feedback for the clique. I'm happy posting the way I do, but I bet there's a few others who feel excluded in the same way I do.

My $0.02 worth.

Stuart

[asimov]

In my case Stuart, I've been *almost* abused for offering advice on how to make an image better, so unless they are requesting help I just keep my reply short & sweet just in case? I am no longer a prolific poster here; I post my image, make a few replies here & there & then sod off to the next forum.

I know exactly where you are coming from though, you can be sure of that.

[astroron]

It obviously does worry you other wise you wouldn't have posted it in the first place:shrug:
You have contradict yourself a few times.
So what if no one praises your pictures,maybe they don't really care ?
This kind of post comes up every now and again, and every time it disintegrates into a slanging match.
I Don't see qlique's,but then I don't take astro pics :D
I usually like to see the end of these threads as they are normally counter productive.
My 2 Bobs worth.
Cheers:thumbsup:

[cfranks]

Stuart, I haven't had that feeling although my posts are relatively few but I really have appreciated your help recently and will lean on you a bit more when the weather clears. I am always a little worried when I post, that I am asking stupid, or obvious, questions but no one (yet) has abused me. :sadeyes: Being 75 isn't easy but at least, next weekend, I'll be able to hide my own Easter Eggs!! ;)

Charles

[strongmanmike]

:rofl: ...not being abusive Charles that's just funny :P

Mike

[rat156]

No problemo Charles, like I said, I only post when I have something specific to add (unlike the post above, thanks for being caring and understanding Ron). I couldn't let a "help me" thread like yours go by from someone with such similar equipment to mine.

Seventy five, hope I make it that far and am still into AP, I might even be half decent at it by then!

Cheers
Stuart

[astroron]

(unlike the post above, thanks for being caring and understanding Ron). I couldn't let a "help me" thread like yours go by from someone with such similar equipment to mine.

You have me at a disadvantage :shrug:
For one I don't have any similar equipment to you, except maybe a Newtonian telescope,I have never asked for help on telescope matters as far as I can remember whilest being a member of iceinspace for over six years.
Please elaborate:question:
Maybe I am misundstanding the point of the above quote:shrug:
Cheers:thumbsup:

[Octane]

He was referring to Charles' help me thread.

H

[jjjnettie]

Stuart, I hear where you're coming from.
It was years before I got more than "good picture" for stuff I posted.
I guess people are scared of offending if they offer advice, as Asi said earlier.
Personally, I don't go look at every picture that is posted, unless it's an object I have an interest in. And finding an original comment to make on each one is impossible. If it's a "good image" I'll say so, if it's a "great image", that is exactly what I mean. :)

[astroron]

I See, Thanks H :thanx:
Cheers:thumbsup:

[2stroke]

O.P. If you arn't getting any useful feedback here you could also try cloudynights, i'am sure the yanky guys would love to hear from a vet aussie ap'r like yourself. IIS is a great hub but i've also noticed from my wife posted images that very few comments come unless posted in the newbie section, my thinkings are there are to many people that need to make them selfs feel elite in the ap section and new commers work isn't worth there time. There are also groups of people which are close freinds and have there circles, but that just life be it here on a internet forum or any real life club/group/workplace. Anyhow don't let people on this forum put down your work in anyway what so ever as its probably much greater then theres and they could also be full of enevy :)

[RobF]

Well if it makes any difference Stuart I've noticed you've been posting less and miss your input. You've shown some damned fine images in the past at a very high standard, and I want to see what that PMX can do.

When you're in the mood, please do put some pics up from your latest work. I'd be surprised actually if I'm the only person that feels this way.


There's all sorts of reasons people don't always actively post which can be a downer when you know it's one of your better shots, but we all have lives to lead outside IIS and don't always get online at the right time to catch new images going up.

[lepton3]

I really only come here for the Solar System images and the occasional Astrophotography equipment discussion. I'll have a look at the odd Deep Space image, but most of them look great to me, and I wouldn't really be able to tell good from great. So if there are cliques there, I'm not aware.

I suspect a lot of people similarly favour a smallish subset of the forum and only glance at the other parts.

There do seem to be a group of regulars in the Solar System area, but they all seem very helpful, civil and polite.

I usually won't post advice on an image unless the poster specifically asked. Similarly, I don't expect advice unless I ask for it. I guess Solar System is a little unique, because things are always changing, so there is value in even a mediocre image as a record of the moment.

Deep space, I guess it's going to be harder to get the balance between constructive feedback and offending someone. Also, it seems to have less frequent postings. But from some of the earlier responses, sounds like there are a few on this forum that would like to see your deep space images and would be willing to engage in constructive discussion, so hopefully still worth it for you to engage.

-Ivan

[mplanet62]

Forums are not that different from live communication - with only difference that people feel free to do the way they would not in real life - for their true identities are not known. It's likely to meet arrogance and group interests on any of multiple forums - more likely than in real life (where there's aplenty of it).
The only help and advice I can offer - learn not to provoke reactions, and skip unprovoked ones. Don't stick with, go on. And if it repeats all time - have a good look at yourself and the place you are in. It's not an accident anymore.

[TrevorW]

75 Charles, well done, I wouldn't be worried about hiding the EE's it's just remembering where you hid them that would worry me;):P:D

Stuart I'll PM you

[Terry B]

This is certainly what I do.
I almost never look at the pretty pics posted as it doesn't interest me much. I read the general section, the adds and the science topics. Few science topics get many replies but I suppose that shows that most of the forum members have other interests.
Each to their own.

[desler]

I come in and have received vast amounts of help which has got me just out of the very newbie stage! Whilst some of my images get comments, not all do! I'm more interested in comments to help me improve in either capture, processing or sorting out problems.

I don't ever think I've been abused or been abusive, just that this site is representative of the population as a whole, some people you'll get on with, some you won't, personally I miss looking at you images Stuart!

Clear skies to you!


Darren

[casstony]

I certainly don't feel like I'm part of the 'inner circle' (imaging is a prerequisite for that :) ), but on the other hand I don't feel excluded from any part of the site either. If you have something to say or want to get involved in any part of the site there's nobody else stopping you.

I occasionally disagree with something on the site, but again it's a lot easier to criticise than it is to build the forum up into something worthwhile.

Best to overlook the aspects you don't like and generally enjoy IIS.

[rainwatcher]

There definately are cliques. I was discussing this with my wife the other day and said its quite easy to group the members into their respective pal groups. I have no problem with this, it is just the way it is, and i have not had any issue with first time photos being ignored - I certainly had some constructive feedback from the experienced members of this forum. However if you really want to feel left out criticise Steve Jobs or any of the Apple products, you will soon find one of the strongest cliques on this site. :rolleyes: And i wont even mention the faster than the speed of light brigade.:screwy:

[Octane]

Here we go, again.

[Omaroo]

There will be splinter groups within every large group of people. Not sure what the problem with that is.

[supernova1965]

I don't see why this is a surprise to anyone like any community there will be different groups why should a forum be any different to life you will have some people who cross boundries into different groups but I doubt that you will find someone who mixes with all groups. This forum is a microcosm of society as a whole. But in no way do I feel left out I have only been made to feel very welcome


Just my 2c worth.

[ballaratdragons]

I laugh at the so called 'clique' in Deep Sky Imaging.
Many of them hate each other viciously :lol:

Makes for amusing reading some nights ;)
Not exactly what I call a 'clique'. More of a group of people with mutual interests but with different views about the outcome, and each other :P

[avandonk]

I find all this mere mention of cliques quite extraordinary! Do you really think we will let just any person in! We have standards to uphold and just because you do not meet the standards (which are secret by the way) any complaint is futile! It is obvious to me a lesser form of pond life is starting to have ideas way above their station.
This should be resisted at all costs as it may destroy our delusional lives.;)

Bert

[jjjnettie]

Splitters!!!!
The People's Front of Astronomy
The Astronomers Peoples Front

[acropolite]

The apple tragics aren't a clique, Unconditional Apple Devotion will be a certifiable condition once they work out the mechanisms that cause it. (love ya work Chris & H)

Seriously though IMO there are not cliques within the forum, those who contribute regularly get to know each other more quickly, tend to reveal more of themselves and interact freely.

Many of the members you may consider in the "clique" category have taken the trouble to meet each other at places like Astrofest, Snake Valley, or IIS astrocamps, or through private meetings. Many have been members since the year dot and know each other from relationships built during the early days of IIS.

In my opinion IIS is one of the friendliest forums I have been involved in, and the generosity and compassion shown by the members is second to none.

[supernova1965]

OH NO the PFA and the APF everyone run and hide:rofl:

[supernova1965]

I will second that :thumbsup:

[avandonk]

jjjnettie you forgot the men who want to be women!

And what has IIS ever done for us!

The aqueducts : A link for the free flow of information
The roads: Meeting people face to face at various star parties etc.


I could go on but you get the drift.

Bert

[Octane]

Hey, Phil! I'm not an Apple tragic; I own a few of their devices, sure. I just don't get the unjustified taunts. :P

Or, maybe I am afflicted? :P

All good.

H

[Peter Ward]

I feel for you Stu.... For starters: you race an Italian car :)

I recall saying there was a heck of a lot of PC: if one dares to suggest improvements to crappy photo's (equivalent to crayon drawings on your mum's fridge)... and effectively saying: I'm not your momma kid..there were "ooh dear" and "tut-tut's"

Happily Sugery, Engineering and Aviation, (to name a few professions ) look at the real ramifications of below par effort.

I've since discovered the opposite extreme... sycophantic responses to posts that should be top-shelf, but missed the mark. Emperor missing clothing sort of stuff...

But Aussies are a "weird mob". Just look at the people we allow to run the place and take 3-6 months of our salary, then give it to people/programs that otherwise you'd not give a red-cent to...

.... my point is not to have a swing at the pollies...but simply for people to think critically, no matter what "it" is, ask "is that resonable? ", always question, and call a spade a 'bleedin shovel.

[Lester]

Where ever there is life there is a "peking order". Animals have them, people, families, towns, sports clubs etc. I bet you would find cliques in a group of stamp collectors also. There is the disadvantage of net mingling where one cannot see the other person to gauge their body language and mood. We can talk a lot on here, but never actually get to know the other person because of that.

All the best.

[GeoffW1]

The front of some Astronomer People!! :rofl:

[mill]

People who know each other from astro camps or face to face will comment easier on each others posts and don't really have to think twice about a critique or a small taunt without a hissy fit.
this looks like a clique but isn't, with others you just have to think about what you type because you don't know the person.
This is why it is hard to comment on post's people write who you don't know.

[rat156]

Cloudynights is even worse, firstly you're posting from somewhere outside the US, secondly it's in the Southern Hemisphere. Posted there a few times, got very few comments on the pictures, intact sometimes the post wasn't looked at much.

Cheers
Stuart

[rat156]

Hi Darren,

I think that there's an "r" missing, I'm not going to be posting images of me in the future! Now that would be vain...

Being so close to each other geographically it's amusing to sometime see that we've been imaging the same things on the same night. I'm doing CG4 tonight, it's bloody dim! Hope you're out imaging as well.

Thanks for the sentiment though.

Cheers
Stuart

[rat156]

The thread has wandered from the original intent, as often happens, sometimes for the good, sometimes not. Anyway the original intent of the thread was to expand upon the point brought out in another thread about the "boys club" (sorry jjj) being a discouragement from people posting. I simply pointed out that the boys club sometimes act a bit like bullies and discourage everyone from posting that isn't part of the clique.

I believe that this is the case, it certainly is for me and the other several people that have contacted me personally or through the thread. The example given was probably not well chosen.

On the subject of "once you get to know these people face to face, you'll feel more comfortable". What makes you think that if I feel uncomfortable online I would attend a star party where the organiser is probably one of these same people. About as welcome as a Nun at an orgy methinks.

Cheers
Stuart

[Kevnool]

I,m laughing again.

[Jen]

:eyepop: i dissapear from these forums for a week and i come back to another negative thread :sadeyes: Sometimes i just think you all forget why we joined this site in the first place :shrug: we all have a love for astronomy :D


That is all !!!!!! :P

[ballaratdragons]

Yep, it's all your fault Jen, for not being here to control everyone :lol:

[Jen]

:lol::lol: sorry lol :evil2::evil2::evil2:

[ballaratdragons]

I am one of the Organisers of a fairly local event!
You certainly aren't any Nun, and we certainly don't have an orgy :lol: and I've never had anything against you, and you are always welcome, same as anyone else.
It's up to you to turn up and be welcomed :thumbsup:

[supernova1965]

here here well said some sanity for a change

[PeterM]

Jen, you just have a way of saying what I reckon 90% people are thinking.
Bingo Jen!
PeterM

[rat156]

So threads which are negative or express some misgivings about the site are now banned?

Welcome to the Orwellian vision.

You don't have to read it, you don't have to agree with me, but surely I have the right to say it?

Cheers
Stuart

[gregbradley]

For what its worth Stuart I noticed you hadn't posted much for a while.

I enjoy your image posts when you do them.

Critiquing someones' image is a touchy thing. It feels a bit like you are attacking them almost. Saying someones creation should be like this or like that is skating on thin ice. If stated as only your opinion and taste it softens any negative impact a critique may have and get less reaction.

Cheers,

Greg.

[Kevnool]

Is anyone going away over easter (Away from the computer).

[multiweb]

Uh oh! Jen, you bully. Making the boys cry... tsssk tsssk... :P

[Poita]

I just jump in and offer advice, even though I'm not all that great at any of it.
I figure if they don't want the advice, then they will say so, I note that the particular poster doesn't want advice and try to remember not to give any to that particular person. Then I immediately go stick my nose into someone elses posts.
I figure it's an open forum, if you post a picture or a question or a method, then you expect to get feedback. If the poster doesn't want feedback, then it is usually made clear pretty quick and I pull my head in with them.

I don't feel closed off, but I wish more people would give me advice, I really would love to improve my planetary processing.

Go in with the assumption that it isn't a 'closed group' and it is much less likely to become one.
My apologies to anyone who has been offended by my posts in the past, and to those I offend in the future, but I like it here to much to worry about walking on eggshells, so if I get put of line just tell me so, and I'll give you a wider berth.

Until I forget and bug you again.:P

[Poita]

I don't really believe that it is elitism that stops people commenting on images in the non-newbie sections, it is more that the images in the non beginners sections tend to be rather good, and I don't really have much to comment on except framing and composition. It is so technical that usually I just ask how they did it, rather than offering up much in the way of critique, unless there is something obvious.

I think if you want feedback, ask for it in the title. I'm too dense to worry about sounding like an idiot so I do sometimes post rather dubious or obvious questions, but I've never felt put-down by the answers, but I may be just too self-absorbed to notice :lol:

[Barrykgerdes]

Cliques are found in every walk of life. People tend to gravitate to mutual adoration societies as a form of safety net. Once these are established it is very hard for an outsider to join except by invitation.

This forum is no exception. There are cliques here but I won't enlarge on this statement. Other than to say "ïgnore them" If they don't suit you. What ever you do don't make derogatory comments to annoy or patronising comments in the hope of joining.

Barry

[Poita]

I just make comments, if they get ignored, I dont mind (or notice much to be honest). I never thought of there being cliques on here, but I suppose there probably is, as you said, it is pretty normal in society generally.
The difference here is that you can still comment, the forums are an open space. The comment may go un-remarked, but you can still have your input and it is there for all to read or ignore as they see fit.

I tend not to worry about it much, I enjoy my time here. If I didn't I'd go back to whatever it was that used to eat up my time... if only I could remember what that was.:question:

[Octane]

Stuart, don't worry too much about people not commenting on your images.

There's certain people on here who refuse to comment on any image I post (despite the fact that I'm happy to comment on theirs); whether it be terrestrial or deep space. You just ignore it after a while and stop bothering to wonder what it is that you may or may not have done to earn their disinterest.

Your feeling of disenfranchisement may also have to do with the fact that admittedly, you have started or participated in some off-topic threads which have been locked on more than one occasion. Personally, I don't care, but, some people see that as a reason to keep away, as it were.

Sometimes, it's not the content of what you're posting, but, the tone in which it is being posted that can also be off-putting. For example, Cr**gS's (before he left or got banned, or whatever) insistence on being a hard arse in the science forum put people off so badly that the only ones replying to his threads were the same two or three people that were part of that clique.

Forums are awesome for knowledge sharing and banter, but, the problem of impersonality is a greater detractor than the tyranny of distance. Some of the things said on here wouldn't be said face-to-face, and, if they were, would be accepted with a smile.

Cheer up, and, start posting your pictures again!

H

[rcheshire]

>50% of communication is non-verbal. And everyone has their sensitivities. So it's difficult to communicate effectively on forums. Short of being referred to as pond slime, I figure that people mean well, and who takes that seriously anyway.

[Hagar]

Like it or not Stuart Cliques on internet forums are a reality. You and I have had words in the past and I'd like to think we can hobble past these.
Comments on images, well sometimes I get a few and sometimes I don't but the bit that ikes me is the fact that a very small number and I mean a very small numer of the better imagers pass comments and even fewer lend a hand with step by step advice. Some times I have refered to it as a boys club or secret society but in reality it is more the attitude you are refering to.
When advice is given it is nice to have it acted upon or at least confirmed that it was read but many's a time it just seems to be ignored.
I am sure your response would be the same as mine and that is "Why bother"

The other big problem with the internet is the 2 minute expert. These seem to pop up on a very regular basis. The advice they give is questionableto say the least but how do you differentiate between the real and imagined expert. Do you really want their advice but in reality this is sometimes the only advice available.


I for one always admired and commented on your images and would like to see them on IIS again.

Don't get to frustrated or you will end up a grumpy old fart like me.
Imust take an image myself one day. Been a while now.

[avandonk]

I was being very tongue in cheek when I used the expression pond slime. Even a joke can be misinterpreted. Pond slime is an expression only the upper class twits in old Blighty use. If I want to denigrate anyone I would call him or her an ignorant idiot. I have been guilty of this sin myself ie being an ignorant idiot.

So what happened with GraigS? I thought I was finally getting through to him.

Bert

[rcheshire]

I thought it funny Bert - no offense. I noticed that Craig has been silent recently - must be deep in study.

[avandonk]

I am now offended by your lack of offense to my offensive statements! It can get worse I may never respond again.

Ok I will respond only to heap abuse.

Bert

[AstralTraveller]

Oh Bert you abusive heap ..... :P

[rcheshire]

OK... now I am in trouble...!

[gregbradley]

I gotta say this group is extremely responsive to posted images compared to any other forum around.

I have been amazed at times you post an image thats taken you nearly a week to capture and process and you know its a reasonable effort and one person will comment on it on other forums.

On this forum you are much more likely to get a response.

Perhaps that s a positive trait of Aussies over other places. Kind of friendlier sort of people.

Greg.

[Peter.M]

I find it humerous that this thread is essentially about feeling ostracised from a group. If the stereotype were true we would all be, look how fellow astronomers are portrayed in the big bang theory.

[torana68]

gee didnt this take off since early today ....anyway ME! Im going home, and hoping for clear dark nights (I lived in BH for a while Kev :D ) someone mentioned a Nun and a orgy is there a contact for that?

[Max Vondel]

I agree with you Stuart.

There are "mental hurdle chasers" everywhere
Still it's best to ignore the "BS"

And there are also many great people out there on IIS
Focus on the positive and ignore the trolls!

Clear Skies
Peter B
:)

[Jen]

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: oh dear.... i didnt say this has to be banned :poke: i just dont like negativity :rolleyes:

Now get that scope out and point it up to the sky and do what you do best take some pics :astron:

[acropolite]

I suppose you want the right to have babies as well......

[Bassnut]

Gaud, how many bad cliches can you fit in one post ? :P

[mishku]

Mmm... I don't mind cliques, as long as they are in time with the music. Clapping can get a bit out of hand at times though :D

Meanwhile I'm still trying to work out how we could get a nun to leave an orgy for long enough to actually visit a star party :D :eyepop: :poke:

[Jen]

:lol::lol::lol: lol mish

[mental4astro]

Clique!

I only wish the sketching threads in the Obs and Vis forum would get the half the traffic the imaging forums do, let lone comments.

I feel like me and a couple of others are the only mugs who fly the sad and sorry flag for the oldest form of astronomical imaging.

I understand each to their own. However, one way it could be seen is "he who has the deepest pockets wins". I guess a 50c pencil just won't cut the mustard here. :rolleyes:

I can only see that many folks may just feel inadequate to make a comment, in all threads/forums. I see the sketching threads visit counter ticking over, but no one wants to even say "good one mate", :shrug:.

It frustrates me, but I still keep adding to the threads, and savour as much as I can those comments and images fellow "sketchers" (as opposed to "imagers", :P) post. I try hard to encourage. Maybe too hard? I just don't know. But I'll still keep posting my stuff.

My 2c worth.

[jjjnettie]

I envy you sketchers your talents. It's a world away from the techo stuff we do. I'll make the effort to drop in more often. :)

[RB]

Alexander, I wish you could read my mind every time I view your sketches.
Unfortunately I don't post as often as I used to, too busy with work and watching my 8 kids grow up.

I do enjoy viewing everyone's images, sketches and reading the comments but don't take it personally if I don't post as much now as I used to.

That also goes for the rest of you.

:lol:

[gregbradley]

8 kids?

Holy Cow, its a miracle you have the energy to even talk let alone post!

Greg.

[multiweb]

Not at all. Love to browse the sketchings but I have no clue about how it's done or even relate to it as I'm an imager but I do appreciate the amount of work required and the skills hence lack of communication. There are a lot of other forums I read but I have nothing to contribute to. Doesn't mean they're not all important to me or others. Besides if we all liked the same things these forums would be boring. Vive la différence. :)

[Barrykgerdes]

After reading the first post on this subject again I gather the originator is unhappy because no one commented on his astro photos that were posted. I like many others look at these pictures and if they look correct don't need to comment.

However as for "joining a clique" he must agree that to have over 75 replies to a topic he started, has well and truly created his own little clique.

Gee I quite often don't get a single reply to a topic I start or a comment I make in another topic. It does not bother me. Even when I posted something in the Astronomy and Science topic and was told to clear off by the owners of that thread.

Barry

[Poita]

I love your stuff, but I rarely notice it being posted for some reason??
I think maybe it is just a layout thing for me, if there was a Sketching main heading under the IMAGES section, like there is for Solar, DSO and Terrestrial I'd visit much more often. I just quite literally forget where to find the sketches, and because there isn't a reminder on the front page, I forget to look until it gets mentioned in another thread.
Then when I do I am blown away every time. I'd love to see it moved to the Images section so scatterbrains like myself would remember to be wowed more often.
There is so much stuff on this site, I tend not to delve outside the main headings as I spend too much time on here already!

[Poita]

8 Kids!?!? I'm impressed you post at all.

I'm the same, I probably should dish out some more 'OMG that is incredible' type posts, but I tend not to comment unless I have something constructive to say, which means I look at a lot of images and sketches and DIY builds and just saw 'Wow' out loud, envy the talent a little, remind myself to try harder and then move on and am wowed by the next image/sketch/project.
I read hundreds of threads I don't comment on, as I'd have nothing to say except 'well done' and worry sometimes it would come across as condescending when the thing in question is so far beyond my abilities.
But I will be doing more of that, so if your images become clogged with my comments and uninformed praise, you have all been warned!

[mental4astro]

Peter, here's the sketching sticky from the Observational and Visual forum:

Solar System and DSO sketching (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=73111)

And the Moon has its own sketching thread:

Sketch the Moon Night (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=67296)

And for the heck of it, my last sketch done a week ago of Omega Centauri from home:

112490

Andrew, 8 kids, eh. Freak'n' awesome! :thumbsup:

[jenchris]

I've mentioned the clotty sort of amalgamation of patrons here.
It appears to be very hard to break into the circle of the cognoscenti.
Or the self involved panegyric of those who have accumulated huge and expensive lists of machinery (Not always astronomical in nature (save the price)).

I attempted to involve myself in this site but now only really come here to get opinions of members who own particular pieces of gear and sometimes a technique that someone may explain.

I'm not sure I appreciate the "I only managed to get 347 hours on this nebula so it's not finished." sort of posts.

I'd much prefer to get. "I have spent months trying to get enough information to portray this nebula and I think I'm not going to get any better than this."

I spend a fair bit of time on astronomyforum.net (as a moderator) and with a membership of 60,000 plus there's a lot of new faces popping up every day. We treat everyone the same and encourage those who are just breaking into the hobby, offer advice and generally have a fun time with like minded people.
There's only a few experienced imagers who are regulars, but they aren't cliquey and offer their experience and knowledge with gentle consideration.
But I think the main thing is, they've hung on to the enjoyment aspect and don't get bogged down in the bigger blacker dogs syndrome.

[Alchemy]

Membership cliques......

Happens everywhere, nothing new.
IIS has its versions, doesn't bother me as I pretty much just look at the images as a guest nowadays...... I no longer comment.

[Paul Haese]

Stuart and all, sometimes I read these sort of posts and threads and wonder if I am one of the "guilty" (Probably I am)?? With the volume of posts made here even a person with my amount of free time finds it hard to comment on many threads. Many people work and have families and that limits their time.

Sometimes I think it is better not to say anything to a particular thread (yes I have learnt that little lesson ;) moderators). Starting a thread which is going to get people offside will only encourage cliquey behaviour.

Is there a Clique here? Yep pretty sure there is. Is that different from anywhere else in this world? Nope, this sort of thing happens every where. That is why you have a circle of friends and not friends with everyone you meet.

How does this all fit in with what you are saying Stuart? Do you feel that you are being excluded? If so ask yourself why. If you are comfortable with your own actions; then does it really matter if you are being excluded? Surely those people are not worthy of being your friends. :)

[Poita]

Thanks, I'll bookmark them, that way I won't forget. I don't dig into the obs forum generally, so forget they are there.
I think a sketching forum under the IMAGES section of the site would make sense for people to put up their stuff just like the imagers do. It is the same thing really. I'll suggest it to Mike.

[blink138]

You don't have to read it, you don't have to agree with me, but surely I have the right to say it?
I suppose you want the right to have babies as well...... quote

"from now on i want to be called loretta...."
cleese "but why stan?"
pat

[Poita]

It's my right as a man.

[Poita]

I worked out why I always can't find it again.
It is in the 'Stickies' section. Most sites I visit are tech sites, and the stuff in the stickies is effectively the FAQs for new visitors or reference material that rarely changes, so I am programmed to quite literally tune-out anything above the line...

Also I assumed 'Sketch the moon night' was referring to a one-off event, so I never clicked on it.

[sjastro]

As much as it is against my better judgement for posting here since I have gone from being a regular poster to a lurker, I'm compelled to make a few comments.

Cliques are either deliberately formed, or the description is imposed on others as a form of stereotyping.
Since the Science forum has cropped up in this discussion let me use it as an example.
Being once a regular contributor in the forum evidently turned me into an elitist, a wanker, an arrogant snob, an ineffective communicator and a host of other goodies. Strange the criticisms seemed to be directly related to the obscurity the subject matter being discussed.

Evidently you are a far worse human being discussing quantum physics than say astronomy.:shrug:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=84318&page=6

We are all familiar with the evils of various "isms" such as racism and sexism, anti intellectualism regretfully is rife and forms the mechanism of accusing others of forming cliques.

Anyway I will go back to lurking.

Regards

Steven

[niko]

Alexander - that is a breath taking sketch. I, too, will try to drop in more often.

I have found IIS to be the most welcoming and supportive forum/community for what is really a pretty obscure past-time done by people generally sitting alone in the dark! A huge thank you to everyone that responds to my queries and accepts my infrequent posts in the spirit with which they are meant.

There's an old adage that if an e-mail can be misread, it will be. It's true here to - without the benefit of face-to-face contact we read things without visual or audio clues as to the true intention. Sometimes it requires a moment's pause either posting or reading to check we aren't misinterpreting the intention.

We also need a thick skin but I agree that if you post you should expect feedback - good, bad and indifferent.I read far more than I post on and currently feel out of my league to offer critical comments on things I know little about. Sometimes I see images that appear very garish to me but I resist saying so unless the poster have specifically asked for constructive criticism. Maybe "constructive" is there key here...? As Jen says, we are all here for one reason - love of astronomy in all its guises. That may be as far as the connection goes for many of us. I certainly have been aghast at some of the political commenatry on this forum but I choose to ignore it or will enter the fray as the mood takes me - it just has toi be a certain amount of water of a duck's back.

The forum is great and as a largely self-moderated environment we should be proud of ourselves, and thankful to the moderators for creating and maintaining it.Sturat, we've never met but I'd delight in seeing the work of another Melbourne based AP'er. I can't always promise to post a response and may never have a useful contribution to make but I do find other people's work inspirational - especially during these long cloudy periods.

Recently, I have had self-interest drive my contact with the forum. I've been seeking advice on how to improve my talents. I actively seek critical comment - in a way, the harsher the better so I learn (whip me nunny, whip me) but then it's also nice to hear a "good onya" too.For my part, I'll try to log on as a user (not a guest) more often and be mindful to comment more.Let's not let the odd lack of encouragement discourage us for this generally fantastic community.

Ignore the haters, embrace the lovers

niko

[multiweb]

Well I think the science forums were pretty cool when Carl, yourself, Craig, Bert, Stephen and the occasional EU crackpot were chatting about stuff that was mostly well over my head but sometimes I did learn some and I really enjoyed going through the various outside links you guys posted. I used to read a lot of the posts and spend a lot of time there. Kind of miss it actually. Sure there were a few heated arguments at times but it always levelled out in the end.

As far as being intimidated by posting in the science forums because the 'level' was too high, well if you don't get it or don't have the tools you don't post there, just read and learn some. Plain and simple. It's a science forum. It shouldn't be moderated right down or downgraded to allow all the kiddies to play in. That's what general chat is for. Same goes for every other forum sections. Beginners, Advanced, Layback, Hardcore geeks, etc... There is enough variety to fit any shoe on IIS.

[Regulus]

Where do you get 50c pencils from??????????
:shrug:

[Dave2042]

Hi Steven

As an infrequent and relatively new poster mainly in the Science forum, can I say I am mystified that anyone would react to your posts that way. I've always felt your posts were reasonable and insightful.

Some characters in that forum have occasionally strayed into more confrontational language, or (in my opinion) fringe views and I can understand a level of irritation at this. However, even in those cases, I think the relevant people were posting in good faith and that differences of opinion are part of the internet as they are part of life.

Obviously some level of politeness is necessary, but to me, a forum is most interesting when people are allowed to disagree enthusiastically. I think this site's moderation does a reasonable job of maintaining a balance here.

Personally I consider it my own obligation to not take things too much to heart. (That's not directed at you, by the way.)

Regards

[PCH]

Alex

OMG that is an awesome pic of Omega Centauri. I'd have bet my life it was a photo. But for you to come up with a drawing of that quality is beyond awesome mate - it's .... whatever better than awesome is - lol.

And Andrew, - I'm with them. You should get a television :lol:

[bojan]

Cliques?
Yes they are here, and they do cross horns sometimes.. passionately and sometimes the good judgement of appropriateness of level of engagement is forgotten or not there at all.
- ATMer's vs buyers of equipment (with lots of money in their pocket)
- Science geeks vs pseudoscience followers
- Apple vs the rest of the world.... Linux vs MS.. Android vs... whatever.

Those are fact of life, that's all.. and we simply have to accept that. I certainly do.

[PeterM]

[QUOTE=multiweb;838381]Well I think the science forums were pretty cool when Carl, yourself, Craig, Bert, Stephen and the occasional EU crackpot were chatting about stuff that was mostly well over my head but sometimes I did learn some and I really enjoyed going through the various outside links you guys posted. I used to read a lot of the posts and spend a lot of time there. Kind of miss it actually. Sure there were a few heated arguments at times but it always levelled out in the end.

Well said Marc,
I miss it too.
The science forum is so much the poorer for the loss of contributions from all the above named. The debates were often robust and while one may not have a agreed with all said they made great reading and often great learning. Many really good links provided and sjastro and craigs presented some links to some recent SN studies, stuff that is not easily found.

PeterM.

[Poita]

It seems that quite a few poster's main beef is that their posts go unacknowledged or their advice 'ignored' or their images un-commented on. That is understandable, but this is a busy place and it will happen sometimes.

My advice is of variable quality, as is my experience, but if I was only going to post if I got a response, I wouldn't post much.

Sometimes I'll spend an hour or more putting together and researching a reply, and it doesn't get a comment, or like the other day when I spent a few hours uploading some files and no-one seemed interested. I reckon that is par for the course, this is a busy place and sometimes one's advice or images or comments will not get noticed. They may get noticed but no-one happens to comment. Or the OP might not be interested in the advice at this point in time. I think that is fine.
I've lost count of the amount of times I have found info I needed in a 2 year old post, or a side comment in an unrelated post etc. so even if it isn't of use now, it most likely will help someone in the future.

I post because I enjoy the discussion, I like the people here and I like to help out if I can, even if sometimes I may hinder :lol:. I don't do it to get thanks or even acknowledgement, I figure that whatever I write may be of use to someone, someday even if it goes ignored for now.
If the OP gets back to me or not doesn't bug me at all. I like it when it turns out something I posted really *did* help, it makes me all warm and fuzzy, but if there is only silence, then hey, what does it matter, I'm not posting for the Kudos, I just like hanging out here and enjoying the flow of information.

Either that or it's like my Mum used to say, that I could talk with a mouth full of rocks underwater...

[Barrykgerdes]

I see there is a thread on pictures posted by a newer member in the beginners forum that got 9 nice comments in a few hours.

How's that for rubbing it in.

Barry

[Hagar]

What the hell does that mean...... You drink to much?

[Barrykgerdes]

I will explain it for you.

This thread was started because the poster bid not belong to the clique of people who tell each other how good their photos are.

My post refers to a new member who posted her pictures of the moon (I think) in the Beginners forum and got 9 responses. within a few hours.

Barry

[Hagar]

Wonderfull stuff, some encouragment for a beginner. Just hope your advice is of reasonable quality and not that of a 2 minute expert without just thought.
Comments are only as good as the person making them. What is being discussed here is the fact that quality/meaningfull feedback is posted within the overall group, be it deep sky imaging or planetary etc.
There is enough visitors who choose to look at images but refuse or fail to make any constructive comments and when someone does comment constructively eg Paul Haese he is ridiculed, by lots of others who don't comment or don't know enough to comment.
You need to ensure you comments aren't construed as rubbish comments due to their context or relevance like the last one. Have another glass for me.

[cventer]

Seems to be one of these post developing its own personality with a bunch of people arguing and eventually forgetting what they were originally arguing about.


Fact is this is a very busy forum. The quality of images being produced by our members are world class. Just under a year ago when I got back into imaging I was embarrassed to post any images. But the comments I got on ones I did and the drive I get viewing some of the amazing images push me to keep getting better. I love the comments both good and bad. 9 out of 10 times the constructive feedback is spot on and drives me to reprocess or get more data.


Given how busy the deep space forum is I can't read and comment on all of the posts. I do however do my best to comment on those who have taken the time to comment on mine. This is just good manners. if this means I am then part of a clique so be it. I also do tend to prioritise looking at the images of some of our better imagers because they set the standard for what I hope to achieve.


Occasionally I see certain post get a lot of ongoing commentary and I am not sure I see what the big deal is. But that's just personal taste. If I like something I say so. If I can offer advice for improvement I will. If neither of the above I won't say anything.

Let's hope this does not discourage people from posting their images.


Also if you want feedback. ask for it!:)

[ballaratdragons]

That is all !!!!!!

[ballaratdragons]

I fail to see how Jen's post says your thread and thoughts are, or should be, banned!
Methinks you are getting a tad paranoid and particular.

It would be a good start if you don't read false statements into what people actually say.

[dannat]

I can't believe this threads 5 pages, I read the bit at the start & the bit at the end (just like the bible & my HSC texts)

People have too much time on their hands &/or too little to do

[ballaratdragons]

Yes Dan, I was going to comment on how this thread now has over 100 posts about Stuarts complaint, but then I thought if I say anything it could be construed that I may be belittling his complaint.
So I left that part out about the number of replies.

But yes, over 100 posts. :rolleyes:

Geez, I asked an important (to me) question in Equipment and I only got one reply that said 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'.
That's life. If we expect everyone to run to our threads and fill it with glorifying comments and post after post of 'that's nice', then we need to get a life.

[asimov]

Well, I'm finding this entertaining reading Ken:lol: The only thing missing is a sarcastic Bob N' B1 image:D

[ballaratdragons]

:rofl: Onya John

ahhhh . . . the memories :P

[asimov]

I won't do it, as most here in the early days (including the mods) used to roll their eyes a tad LMAO but I think a few here need to lighten up a bit. At the end of the day who the heck cares, & once this thread is locked down it'll return to how it was in any case..

[astroron]

I was going to wait till this thread got to 99, then make up the 100 post,:rolleyes:
I went and had a snooze to come back to find it is well past that.:P
Over a 100 posts, for in my opinion a very negative original post.:sadeyes:
So much typing in reply too someone have a whinge:screwy:
I wonder if there would be so many replies for a positive post:question:
I wonder if the starter of this thread will look at all the posts and gain any satisfaction from the answers received:question:
Cheers:thumbsup:

[rcheshire]

Well said! Having too much time on my hands after moving some very large lumps of concrete for a few hours exercise - and now I cant move - barely my fingers typing, it's easy to see what really touches people... the relational stuff. This thread should be a long one, if it wasn't there'd be something wrong.

A wise old digger, that I worked with many years ago, would say as the moment took him, "while mans arse points to the ground there will always be trouble in the world" - and you think evolution is a good thing?

I have used slang for buttocks, for emphasis. Does anyone say that anymore. Please don't tell me that I have breached the forum rules by using offensive language?

[Octane]

Rowland,

You have breached the forum rules by using offensive language.

:running away... quickly:

H

[rcheshire]

Doh!:P

[iceman]

Thanks for all your contributions to this thread. I think all that has needed to be said, has been said.

It's starting to go around in circles and off on tangents too.

Time to move on now.