Banks in general suck

[TrevorW]

I thought I'd get a PL to do some home improvements.

Well my bank has a rate of 12.99% on PL's so I thought I'd shop around I came up with a few that where 1-2% cheaper.

So I being honest, loyal and naive thinking as a AAA rated customer of 20 odd years that my bank could match those rates or maybe even do better.

No they wouldn't/couldn't and didn't care less if I took my banking elsewhere.

However they suggested that I apply for a mortgage top up loan where I'd only be charged interest at my mortgage rate and I could split this so I'd be able to repay it just like a PL in 3 years

Well being a customer for 20 odd years having 3 previous PL's with the same bank you'd think it would be straight forward wanting a measly $15k and having over 80% equity in my home as well as a mortgage that does have a $20000 redraw facility which unfortunately I can't access due to my mortgage rate being fixed at the moment.

No such luck I still have to go through the same checking/valuation procedure as if I was a new customer. So a simple process that IMO should only take a day or two stretches out to weeks and a load of paperwork.

Logic, reason and common sense are not in their vocabulary even when you present them a case. I'm surprised they didn't want my pound of flesh as well.

All I can say thank goodness for their oligarchy as a lot would be out of business if competition was as rife as in other commercial sectors.:mad2::D:thumbsup:

[blink138]

i would see them in hell rather than giving them extra business!
pat

[Kevnool]

Gotta keep the shareholders happy thats why they suk

[Jeffkop]

Yep ... Banks dont hand out any kudos for long term partnerships ... Ya have to jump thru the hoops like an 18 year old with no assets or runs on the board mate ... lest they be missing out on all the fees to provide a loan ... I mean how could they charge you 500 bux to set a loan up IF all they had to do was get you to sign one document and transfer it .. AYE .. HANG ON !!:mad2:

[cventer]

who do you Bank with Trevor ?

[Bassnut]

You woulnt happen to be a share holder would you Trevor?, either direct or through a super fund.

[issdaol]

I swapped banks for the same reason a while back.

My new bank refinanced everything for a much cheaper home loan based rate under a line-of-credit setup.

Now I just re-use those lines-of-credit at the home loan rate to fund personal loans or other items as long as I don't go beyond the lines-of-credit limits I can just keep re-using the funds.

If I need to do something larger I just need to extend one of the lines-of-credit.

Might be worthwhile if you can find a bank that will do this for you

[TrevorW]

Through a super fund

rather not say which bank and its not that which bank

[FlashDrive]

Banks want nothing more but to ' enslave ' you into long term debt ... send you applications in the mail for more ' credit cards ' ... try and sell you ' their ' life insurance ... and so on and so on.

They are like a pack of ' wild dogs ' ( most of them ) seeking whom they can devour .. they will tell you how you need them and how they can help you ..... but in reality ...if your not careful ... you slide into an ever increasing hole of debt.

I heard this one day and have never forgotten it :... if you have dug yourself into a financial hole .... then STOP DIGGING.

Do what ever you can to get out of it ... and STAY OUT.

Having a mortgage is necessary and bad enough to handle...!!!
Going to work and having to hand over your ' hard earned cash ' to finance companies EVERY PAYDAY .... is no way to live at all..... you only turn into a slave for them.

Sadly ... some of us who have a ' beer ' income ... cripple ourselves with ' champagne ' taste .. and buy beyond our means.

Be the ' MASTER ' of your own finances ....it's your money ... !!!!

Flash :)

[cventer]

I am going to bite my toungue and try stay out of any detail in here for 2 reasons.

1. Based on this last post I can foresee a whole bunch of ignorant and uninformed posts following

2. I work for one of these demon banks who will enslave you for life :wink2:

Leave you with one thought. If our banks were making the sort of profits our european counterparts are making where would our country be right now ?

Our strong financial institutions are a big reason our country avoided the GFC and financial melt downs occurring all over the world.

[casstony]

More to do with good luck than good management; our banks would have behaved just as badly as the rest had they not been constrained by different regulations. They may yet fall in a heap via heavy exposure to several years of falling real estate prices combined with rising unemployment.

While people are distracted by interest rate movements, the great crime committed by banks (in cahoots with politicians) was the propagation of the housing bubble fooling Australians into taking on far greater levels of debt than they should have.

[TrevorW]

Our banks are in debt to overseas banks to the tune of $357 billion, go figure

[FlashDrive]

Fair go .. The Banks are only in their ' so called ' good position because of the ever increasing fees and charges AT THE EXPENSE of the average worker.... look what their doing now .... going against the reserve banks recommendations to keep interest rates on hold.... look at the public back lash this is generating.

The Banks didn't make themselves like this ..... they got it ( the money ) from the people ...

I doubt the families who have ' struggled ' to meet their obligations ... and then have the banks rip their efforts from underneath them by forcing a ' foreclosure ' would give any ' praise ' at all.

I've seen banks neglect their ' duty of care ' in helping their client to keep their 'assets ' by way of negotiation ... they have just shut the door in their face.

BTW ....CB announced tonight on TV ... 1.6 Billion profit .. for the latest quarter..... yet they ' jacked ' up rates recently.

I had to laugh when ANZ said they are going to axe 1000 jobs from their staff pool..... I wonder what the ex staff will think of that.
Less Staff ... smaller payroll bill ....MORE PROFIT.... less customer service..... and more STRESS on the remaining staff ( tellers ) to ' flog ' their products to the customers at the counter.

I know this for a fact ... they do this to me every-time I go to the counter .... have even tried to convince me to change my mortgage over to them.

I'm convinced a day of reckoning is coming for these banks .... people will leave them in droves.

I not against Banks making a profit ( that's business ) .... but it is unforgivable to cause ' hardship ' in the name of profit making.

Nothing ignorant or uninformed about this ...!!!1

Flash.

[multiweb]

Weren't Westpac & St George bailed out by Australian tax payers a couple of years ago when all their bad US investments went South? That's the only two I've heard of.

[OICURMT]

I seriously have to think this statement over... and would appreciate data to support your claim.

OIC!

[brian nordstrom]

;) I hear you Flash , I have been with the same bank for 35 years , way back before it was what it calls its self today ,
I have never had a credit card , eftpos card , loan , or any thing , my wages go in and I do a one of $250 withdrawl in person every thursday lunch time for my spending money for the week , all my bills are direct debt, no fees , and they hate that !!! :lol:.
Those credit card/ insurance things they post on a regular basis are straight in the recycle bin .
If I want anything I save for it , and like the DOGS they are , DONT encourage them!!!! :thumbsup:
Brian.

[brian nordstrom]

:question: Yes they did , and now they make 4 billion profit PA , there is something seriously wrong with our system , not just here , but its world wide .
Look at whats going on in Greece , Syria , Spain , France the USA and lots more countries world wide , people have had enough!!! of the greed of these a$$h0les .
Bring it on I say.
I was earning more money 15 years ago when the cost of living was 1/4 of what is is today , :mad2: Thats WRONG !!! I feel for my children and grand children what sort of life are they going to have?.
Brian.

[cventer]

And now the armchair economists all come out of hiding.

There were two periods during the crisis when our credit rating was on negative watch related to these loans from USA. This was a dangerous time for our financial stability.

If Australia dropped out of the AA status, then the cost of funds and our access to funds internationally would have been severely altered.

This in turn impacts banks ability ability to support the economy. ie staying open for business and being predictable for customers

If AA status is lost banks would freeze balance sheet growth. this means they now cant lend money to businesses and customers. This slows economic growth and you end up in a recession downward cycle.

You may argue you do not want excessive profits form your banking system, it is good for everyone to have a strong banking system that supports economic growth which means businesses can still get loans, households can still safely deposit money and get loans to buy houses, and debit and credit cards still work.

People see banks lift rates while reserve bank does not. What you dont understand is that banks get the money they lend people from 2 main sources. 1. Deposits from public and business. 2. Wholesale money markets.

Deposits are down right now and cost of deposits ie interst Banks are paying to attract deposits is higher than its been for a while.

This means a very large portion of the money they lend the public is from the wholesale market. ie oversease. Unless you have been asleep you might have noticed whats happening to european and american banking system. The cost of wholesale funds have increased significantly while reserve reccomended bank margins have stayed the same. This impacts margins and bank profitability. (If we were not AA rated then this cost of funding would be even higher to reflect the greater risk meaning even lower margins). So eventualy banks need to react. If they had reacted sooner then you would not see 1000's of jobs being shed across financial institutions. In fact the banks should have actualy raised interest rates by 10 - 15 basis points instead of the 6 - 10 they did. I would not rule out another rise.

Sure banks make a lot of money. But not relative to their cost/asset base. The total assets base of our big four banks is $1,170 billion. Most Banks are only makign around 1-1.5% actual profit. Fact that 1.5% is off a Billion dollar cost base is often ignored.

The profit performance of our major banks is equivalent to earning $1.40 profit return on $100 in assets. If banks earn $6.40 worth of income from the $100 worth of assets, they pay out $5 in expenses before delivering the $1.40 in profit.

You want to see a real crooks then look at our Celestron agents in Australia. Not to mention our own government who are very quiet about the fact that since they guaranteed deposits they have earned well over $3.1 Billion in fees from the Banks.

Banks pay over $5 billion year in Australian company tax - more than any other industry - which helps provide schools, hospitals, roads and social security benefits. This amounts to 17 percent of the total amount of company tax paid in Australia.More than $400 million is paid in state and local government taxes, rates and levies.

Over $8million Australians own Bank Shares. The Banks owe it to these $8m to make profits. By law, Banking directors are required to give primary concern to the interests of the company (shareholders) above all others, including their own personal interest. Of the 50 most profitable companies on the ASX, only two are banks.

So this leads me to the job cuts. Despite what you think Banks dont fire people for fun. At the same time being responsible to shareholders mean you are not a charity either. if roles are not needed then you can only hold these for so long before it does not make good business sense to do so. This downsizing is related to 2 main things.

1. Economic slowdown means there are less deposits, less investments, less mortgages. This translates into less calls to call centers, less people needed back office to process loans, open accounts, answer enquiries etc....

2. Technology. Advances in technology and systems mean you can do more with less people. Workflow and automation systems, mobile banking, the internet etc.. means self service allows people to do things themsleves you used to need back office banking staff to do.


So there you have it. Well done if you bothered to read all of this. And no doubt this will inspire the analytics that lurk in all of us to pull it apart. Just saying there are 2 sides to every story.

[FlashDrive]

Just had a phone call from my daughter Rebbecca ... she recently returned from London after teaching in one of the High Schools.

She just scored a permanent job at a ' Private ' High School at the Northern end of the Gold Coast .... now get this :

The banks won't lend her $25K to purchase a new car because her Husband who is also a teacher .. hasn't found himself a job yet.... he's looking for a teaching job also.

Rebbecca is on a pretty good 'wicket' pay wise ( private school ) ... yet they would gladly give her a loan of $400K to purchase a house.... but not the car....????????????????.

How ' bent ' is that .... let's nail this young lady down with a debt she does not even want ... !!!

The Banks are so out of touch today.

BTW .... she walked away shaking her head .. ( her words )

Flash :hi:

[brian nordstrom]

:confused2: Who cares , it IS NOT there MONEY ! and all the do is speculate with it anyway , to squeeze every last drop of profit out of something that aint there's to begin with in the first place !!!! At our expence now we as a people are at their mercy as Flash said , AA ratings is a smoke screen , like the burble Politicion's speel ( smoke screens, mate).. Some of us have a memory , there, Ceventer.
I work hard for my money and resent greed using it for their own gains and give me some crumbs eg 1.4% ?.:mad2:. I still remember my last pay packet that held MY MONEY!!! before we were forced to have it direct deposited , that was not my call ,it was forced on us by greedy bankers , so bugger them!!:thumbsup:.. Down hill since then.
Brian.

[FlashDrive]

Spot on Brian ... It's our money their playing with ... and they charge us fees ... so they can ' PLAY ' with it.

The old mattress in my rumpus room is looking better every-time I see it.

Flash :hi:

[cventer]

Same thing happened to me when I left university.
My parents had to Guarantee the loan. Pissed me off big time...

BUT once again 2 sides to this.

Australian Banks are much more risk averse than many other countries. This is actualy a good thing and again one of the reasons we have not had a financial melt down or housing bubble burst.

Think about why you would loan money for a house vs car.
A car depreciates 20% the day you drive it away and continues to depreciate its whole life. It can be stolen or crashed.

A house on the other hand is typicaly a secure loan becuase it attached to a physical property that over time appreciates.

Imagine a situation where our banks loaned money to anyone who could in reality probably not afford to repay it or even if they could could not if even something small in their personal circumstances or external environment changed. Oh wait thats what happened in America where greedy banks AND greedy public loaned money with no security deposits. ie loaned 100% of the value of assets. When customers started to default on loans the whoel house of cards came crumbling down.

Australian Banks legally cannot do this. Our industry is regulated to ensure we have a certain %of real money to cover debts.

At some point people also need to take responsibility for their own situation. If you cant afford something dont buy it! If you take a loan out you cant afford to repay when intersts rates rise by .06 of a percent then you cant affford it. Sure Banks compete and offer all kinds of financial products to people. Its people who choose to buy them though.

Shall we bash all the sponsors on the right of this page for advertising and forcing us poor astronmers to buy telescopes and accessories we cant afford ? And shame on those astro stores who make 20% to 30% margin on the gear they sell you. How dare they make such a large profit. :-)

On a serious note, if your Daughter earns enough to afford the loan then leave her husband off the application and she wont have a problem.

Anyway I will now definately bite by tongue and shut up as I get the strong sense no amount of logic or reason will be welcome in this thread.

[Jeffkop]

I dont know how you would imagine that ANYONE is ignorant and uninformed about banks my friend .... WE ARE involved with them HAVE BEEN involved with them for the whole of our adult lives !!!! ... Thats got to be one of the most incorrect statements Ive seen ... and explains why bankers have a great view of large intestines.

Our strong financial institutions are a big reason our country avoided the GFC and financial melt downs occurring all over the world. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Sorry mate .. Im with the rest of the uninformed mob who:

1. Queue up for our OWN money.
2. Pay a FEE to access our OWN money.
3. Are still yet to discover what banks do FOR US !!!

[multiweb]

4. Money deposit take 2-3 business days to clear but no problem with money withdrawal showing up straight away in the balance though. :)



Are you saying that $2.00 or even more per ATM transaction is fair then? Just asking. I don't know the cost invloved in maintaining ATMs. Even internet banking transactions are charged, then there's account fees, even if you don't use it then the huge difference in interest paid on your savings vs. interest charged on debts/credit cards. I know they run a business but at the end of the day should you be charged that much to access you own money? I'm even limited in the total amount of money I can transfer in between accounts. It's like going through an eye dropper sometime.

[Darth Wader]

YES we live in a democratic, capitalist, free-market economy, BUT there is a difference between profit and oligopoly:

http://www.smh.com.au/business/westpac-posts-15b-quarterly-profit-20120216-1ta49.html

The very fact that these banks are colloquially referred to as "the big four" only serves to reinforce this. My opinion is that this will all come crashing down very soon, and it ain't gonna be pretty.

[AndrewJ]

Fair enough,



OK



But using the earlier logic, thats nothing "relative to the cost base".

Also, if Banks can pay dividends to shareholders of near 7%
and the shareholders "own" the bank, then profit relative to "cost base" would indicate something doesnt line up in the numbers.


Any way you look at it, the banks are currently sitting on easy street
"relative" to anyone else in Oz ( other than Twiggy ). Guaranteed profits.

Andrew

[FlashDrive]

Re: On a serious note, if your Daughter earns enough to afford the loan then leave her husband off the application and she wont have a problem.

That's why she walked out....the Bank wanted to ' tie ' her Husband up also... ( but he was still looking for a teacher's position ) ... so sorry lady .. no loan :screwy:

Another experience my Wife and I had ... about 11 months ago....we both went into one of the Banks we use and asked for a personal loan for 5k to put up a ' Titan ' Garage.

We have roughly $300k equity in our house .... and a small mortgage still owing. ( just under $100k )

This was their reply ..... turn your mortgage over to us .. then we will approve your application for the P/L

What a 'rort' that is ... that would have incurred release fees from the other bank and more set up fees for the new house loan... ALL AT OUR COST ...!!!

I'll say it again .... They are out to ' bleed ' you as much as they can.

Anyway ... we said ' so sorry ' .... you obviously don't want our business with a response like that.

Once upon a time .... being a Bank Manager was a ' well respected ' position ( I'm talking about when I was growing up as a kid in the 60's ) ..... today ....well I read a 'poll ' not so long ago regarding the worst occupations people despised .... among the worst 5 were Used Car Salesman and you guessed it Bank Managers.

Go for a walk down the street today ... start asking people ...How do you feel about the Banks today .... I'll bet their response wouldn't be nice.... their language would be quiet' colourful ' .

Flash .

[casstony]

Given that most professional economists are clinging to failed theory that has brought the world financial system to it's knees, perhaps us armchair guys could do a better job :)

I'll swap you a 1000 ning nong economists for one Steve Keene :)

[cventer]

Mark , this is one area where I think public have a legitamte gripe. Maintaining a fleet of 1000's of ATM's is certainy not cheap. Any time you touch them not only are you paying for the technicians time but also hiring a security firm to acompany them. The devices themsleves have a lot of complex electronics and moving parts that wear out and need constant maintenance over time. Its not an area i am an expert in, but the magnitiude of ATM fees do seem hard to justify.

As far as the delays of deposits goes and limit amounts on transfers. This is all there to protect the customers and is in fact regulated. You dont want to allow limits of > 10,000 on internet transfers as this would make it very easy for cyber criminals to clean out peopls accounts and would provide even more incentive for them to target the average customer. Not only that amounts > 10,000 are subject to Anti Money Laundering regulation so Banks are by law required to verify that your transfer is not related to illegal actvitiy or money laundering. Again governement regulated ultimately to protect the general public.

This is what my uninformed comment in earlier post was related to. Most people just dont know this kind of factual information so invent stories about how the evil banks are forcing this on the publc for their own gain.

Deposits usauly take 24 hours to clear depending on when you do it. Billions of dollars exchange between banks electronical every night flawlessly. These exchanges happen through clearing houses where the banks essentally swap big files with eachother telling eachother what money went out and what came in. The overnight process ensures the money from the sender was actualy in their account. This is the reason withdrawals come out stright away so that you make more payment than you have funds in your account. If you sell a piece of gear on IIS do you send it to the seller before you confirm reciept of payment ? No. of course not. Yet the money came straight out your account. No different for Banks. They want to see the money in their account before reflecting it on your balance.

Im not defending the banks for being saints. They are a business who are out to make a profit like any other business. What I am saying though is that having AA rated profitable banks is not a bad thing for our country and weather you ike it or not is a contirbuting factor to why our country remains largely shielded from the GFC. There are a few here who like to think the AA rating means nothing but I guarantee you you would be paying a lot more interest on your home loan right now if we did not have it.

Also while its true there may not be enough real competition in Banking in Australia you do have choices. If your bank gives you bad service or cant meet your financial needs. Vote with your feet.

[multiweb]

Thanks for the clarification. I don't know enough about the inner working of the banks and their running costs but as an end user trying to access and move my money around I can see there are some sneaky practices at times. Like limiting the withdrawal on a CC to $300.00 max per transation on Xmas period and charging an efty $4.50 transation fee for each withdrawal with an ATM run by the same bank the card was issued by (Westfield Liverpool - Westpac). That really frustrated the hell out of me when I tried to withdraw some money from my account for my Dad visiting from overseas.

I now understand the ATM maintenance and security costs but one ATM does the job of many branch cashiers so they save money on handling and wages. That sure would offset some of the costs if not break even. Finally one bank, Adelaide Bank, now Bendigo still allows me to transfer any amount overnight out to any other account. So why not the other institutions? I hear you about cybercrime but that's nothing new. Limiting the amount of cash in and out won't solve anything. On the other hand some places don't even require a signature anymore for any amount under $100.00 paid with a CC (Officeworks - Hoxton Park). That's not very secure now is it? All this doesn't make much sense to me as an end user and it frustrates me more than anything. I think most people get annoyed by all the little technicalities. It's our money and it has to be easily accessible, movable from A to B and fast without the fuss or being creamed in the process. :shrug:

[FlashDrive]

Did anybody know this ... read the first line.

Between them, the big four - ANZ, Commonwealth, NAB and Westpac - are pocketing $44,000 a minute in profit, but their silence of almost 48 hours left Queensland families sweating over whether they would get a Christmas reprieve.


ANZ chief Philip Chronican said the bank would make rates decisions on the second Friday of each month to "provide predictability" for consumers and more "flexibility".
Consumer group Choice warned the ANZ rate cut might be a "shiny wrapping around a bitter pill".


The country's central bank boss has attacked the major banks for the widening gap between their home loan rates and official rates.
Reserve Bank of Australia governor Glenn Stevens said there was a growing disparity between home loan rates and the RBA's cash rate, this week cut by 0.25 per cent to 4.25 per cent - the lowest levels since April 2010.


He said the central bank had to lower the cash rate by further than it otherwise wanted to as a way to offset the banks' resistance.

"All four major banks took two full days to respond to the official cut but after days of wrath from the public and Treasurer Wayne Swan passed on the reduction in full to their variable home loan customers."


"I've said this countless times, and it's usually ignored, but, yes, the spread between the cash rate and major home loan rates has risen by something like 100 basis points since about 2007," Mr Stevens said at a university talk in Sydney last night.


"For that reason, the cash rate is roughly lower than it would have been otherwise, to offset that. We have broadly offset that change in the margin by setting our instrument appropriately.''


The cuts come amid fears the big banks will try to set their own regime for rate reviews and thumb their noses at the RBA.


And this was posted also ... credit to the original poster.


Nationalise Already, Privatization experiment has failed how many more generations need to be subjected to the legalised theft by the Banks. You work, you get paid, yet the banks can charge you for accessing your money? The Whole system is a rort, the Gov't is supposed to be providing a system of Currency yet it seems to me if you use Eftpos then it is all the bank. The gov't claiming it is only responsible for paper currency is Crap it Does NOT say that in the constitution and in this day and age controlling a currency mean Controlling the ELECTRONIC currency not archaic bits of paper.

Source of information : just scroll down.

http://www.news.com.au/money/interest-rates/dangerous-precedent-as-bank-plans-to-ignore-rba/story-e6frfmn0-1226217741671

Flash... !!

[TrevorW]

By the way banks don't own ATM's they lease them and the owners get a take from every transaction we make

ATM's are cheaper to run than bank tellers, ATM's work 24hrs a day don't get sick or have holidays and if one breaks down there are 100 more to fill the gap all doing the same thing

At one stage being a bank teller was a great job to have, now forget it most are part timers and some banks have their teller staff cleaning ATM's

Why do you think banks can keep putting off staff, they want all transactions etc to be done electronically as it doesn't cost them (a lot)

Although some are still behind the times I had to fax my recent transaction documents instead of scanning and emailing them in.

[casstony]

Swan's berrating of the banks is just for public consumtion; I bet Swan and the bank CEO's are chummy behind closed doors. He knows full well that banks are under pressure due to cost of overseas funds.

Current interest rates would not be an issue for most borrowers if they hadn't been tricked into buying houses at inflated prices. Consumers are not familiar with business and assett price cycles, but the banks know exactly what they're doing and were assisted in the theft of our money through first home buyers grants which helped to inflate house prices, not to mention wasting tax revenue.

[FlashDrive]

I agree .... just plain old lip service .. trying to make out he's ' angry ' with the Banks ... nice show Swan'y ( another vote catching antic ) ... you don't fool me mate.

Flash ;)

[mithrandir]

Yes and no. ATMs in bank branches usually belong to the bank.

ATMs in other places like the standalone ones in shopping centres, pubs and clubs are usually leased and the owner takes a cut from the transaction fee.

Almost every service or maintenance function on an ATM, including refilling the cash drawers, requires a security guard. The guard companies have minimum call-out times so the ATM owner can be looking at well over $100 per call-out even if it only takes a couple of minutes work.

Sure in the city if one ATM is down there will be another one around the corner. That's not true elsewhere, and it can take more than a day to get a service team and guard out to one.

Use you own bank's ATMs whenever possible to minimize any charges.

OK, so no-one is happy paying for a service they think they don't want.

Going back to cash pay packets is not going to happen. It is too expensive in terms of guards, insurance and handling.

You aren't going to give up on your credit/debit cards. They are too convenient.

BPay and PayAnyone mean I haven't written a cheque in ages.

These services from the bank all cost me, but I'm prepared to trade that off for the convenience.

Switch over to a credit union and be one of the owners. My CU has just become a bank so I'll have to see how that pans out.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Interesting thread! :P Don't you just love "bank bashing". :D I could make some comments here, in support of banks, but couldn't stand the howls of derision. :)

But, I will say this. Banks are a business and the general rule of business is to make a profit. Don't make a profit...you don't have a business, at least, for long. This happens all too frequently.

As for the profits of banks, they don't belong to the bank, as such, but to the shareholders, of which, each and every one wants a return on their investment. Not all shareholders in bank stock are institutional investors, as there are a lot of mum and dad investors too. So, if you think their profits are obscene, then buy shares in the bank and see if you still feel the same. The returns are not as high as they appear by the time they are divided, at this level. Also, banks have to pay a return to those that have deposits, for without these deposits, the bank wouldn't have any money to lend in the first place, which is why the Government guarantees these deposits. It all started a couple hundred years ago!

I am one of these depositors who wants a reasonable return; and I look around for the best return I can get. So, am I to blame for the increase in funding costs? You bet! Like the rest of us, I want to make money. :) It's the capitalist way, after all! :D:P

Furthermore, a lot of emphasis is put on interest rates in regard to mortgage holders. Interestingly, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics, there are only about 2,225,000 mortgage holders in Australia. So, what about the rest?

On the other hand, Australia's credit card debt is around $48.6 Billion, as of Nov. last year. This is where the banks are making a lot of their profits. Whose faults that? Is it the banks? I don't think so.

If it wasn't for all the people borrowing money through mortgages, credit cards and other loans, then maybe the banks wouldn't be so well off; and neither would we. I bet your standard of living would be much lower, if you couldn't borrow for the things you want. I think this is the essential problem, we want it all......and we want it now! Furthermore, the company that pays your wages / salary probably has to borrow the money to stay in business in any case.

I have to agree with Colin's (Flash Drives) earlier comments that we should live within our means, but a lot of people just don't. I have a credit card, but it mostly has a zero balance. If I cannot afford to pay it off completely at the end of each month, then I don't use it, particular for discretionary spending.

Although I have been lucky, in some respects, it is also through good management, and living within my means, that I have no mortgage or debt. I have some small savings and I, for one, do not like interest rate reductions (apologies to all the mortgage holders). When I was paying a mortgage, my interest rate was 17%, so sorry if I don't sympathise too well on this issue. Likewise, there are many self funded retirees (I am not one of them) who suffer a great deal from interest rate reductions. Not everyone has a mortgage, so why is there such emphasis on mortgage rates. We don't hear a hue and cry about credit card rates, for which far too many Australians owe such vast sums.

As for Mr Swan, I wonder if he has any money invested and, if so, again, I agree with Flash, that he is giving mere lip service. I am sure if he has investments, nothing will get done.

The only other thing that I will add, is that the situation with banks is far from cut and dried. I am sure the issues are far more complex than they appear to the general public.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Inflated prices are due to supply and demand, nothing more. It is the same in most industries. As for wasted taxes, they're not really wasted anyway. Whilst Governments keep spending, the money circulates. Just think back to times when Governments introduced austerity measures (like during WWII).

[casstony]

Assett and market bubbles are much more complex than this statement suggests. Peoples idea of what something is worth (which determines what they will pay) is mostly dependent on what they think others will pay, rather than the item being valued on fundamentals; this leads to large fluctuations in prices with changes in sentiment.

To illustrate my point take a look at the last few decades of house prices in Japan, USA and Australia; what does this suggest is ahead for us? Or consider stockmarket crashes - why does the value change dramatically in short time periods? The answer in found in sentiment/psychology, and the bankers in their ivory towers have a good old time manipulating sentiment of the pond life to their own ends.

[Stardrifter_WA]

That is a fair enough statement, it is all in the psychology, as you suggest. It is more complex than my earlier thoughts suggested. That can be the source of the problem. I saw this in the boom of the 80's where I had agents literally knocking on my door offering me $20,000 more than the house was worth, all because they "created" the idea of shortages in supply, making the buyers think that they must snap up these houses now or miss out. But, it still comes down to demand, to a degree. Without the demand, they wouldn't have been able to get away with such practices. Caveat Emptor :D

[brian nordstrom]

:mad2: That reminds me why I am like I am with banks ,Flash .:mad2: .
Many years ago as a struggling aprentice Boilermaker , rebuilding an E37 R/T charger , and after 5 years or struggle , save and 1000's of late nights , my baby was nearly finished , I did every thing my self as I was a poor boy back then , :) . anyway a friend offered me a set of triple 45mm webbers and manifolds , linkeges, the works for a kings ransom of $1200 , OH YEA!!. I had about $110 to my name so went to the buan for a loan of the $1200 ,, filled forms and waited a week .
On a phone call from them I went to pick up my $1200 ,,, :sadeyes: , but no loan for this poor boy at 12% interest , NO A VISA !!! card with a $5000 limit at 20% interest WHAT!!!!:confused2:,, I snapped it in 1/2 and walked out.
I missed those carbs , and built a 4 barrel manifold my self and fitted an old 465 Holley 4bbl I rebuilt myself.

I learned way back then Flash what they done to your Rebbecca now , ,, DOGS!!! the lot of them.
Bugger them.
Brian.

[brian nordstrom]

:thanx: OOPS I meant 29% interest !!! ...:mad2: .

[GrahamL]

I believe most of the image problems banks encounter come from
there own lending practices not so much interest rate flucuations , refusing one type of loan but very happy to extend your CC instead,
dusting off long term customers with endless petty penalties
?

And lets be a little honest with CC debt ,sure people really do need to take some person responsibility with what they borrow but its hard to say lenders should be totally absolved from a little care in regard to who they lend to . .. and if the $ are enough you know sometimes they
arn't :thumbsup:

http://www.smartcompany.com.au/financial-services-and-insurance/20100224-commonwealth-bank-makes-200-million-settlement-with-storm-customers.html

[brian nordstrom]

:thumbsup: Hey Ceventer , you forget ONE little fact ,, here it is ...
... This system we live under is called what ? ... ;)
The CAPITALIST system .. this was hoisted upon us as a people in the 50's and 60's and the 70's by the Rockerfellers , Bushes , and a few othersof that era, can you remember this? :question:.
We as a people had NO SAY !!! in it,it just happened and before it was realised what was going on in about the 80's it was now way to late to stop this monster!!, it a system built on a house of cards and its starting to wobble mate ,, and I aint the only one who hopes it will fall ,
Just yesterday Westpac, forclosed on a unit block owner in Sydney and 15 familys had now where to live last night , just like that , they have payed there rent to no evail,, WAY COOL SYSTEM or WHAT ???. Struggling families paying the price for rich speculators that are back at it again in 6 months :mad2:.
over and over again.
Brian.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Hey Brian, been that way a little longer than the 50's :D Try centuries me thinks. :P

[brian nordstrom]

:) I hear you Peter , but the Romans ,the Catholic church etc. did not have computers , the communation systems , etc. we have had this last 50 - 60 years . People had nothing to begin with so did not miss it ( like the old Stevie Wonder joke ), and were mostly the uneducated masses not like today , :shrug:. well? ....
hows things going mate? Banks treating you ok?
Brian.

[Paul Haese]

Banks have to act in the best interests of the shareholders. This duty of banks (ie companies) is the main problem. This duty has so many derrogatory effects in general it should be removed. The duty causes job losses, increased fees and spiralling costs (and that is just the banks). The duty encourages greedy behaviour. Deregulation of the banks had positive and negative effects which we are just now witnessing. It will get worse over time.

Having studied economics when doing my law degree I understand well the purpose of banks and how they operate. Deregulation was supposed to open up the banking system and to that end it has done this, but a side effect was the present mode of thinking.

While banks are paying heavily for the cost of raising capital, we the forced consumer are paying for this via fees and interest rates to offset the cost. Banks are doing what they have been given permission to do and nothing more. We voted in the people who gave the banks this power, we have to do something about it again.

[Jules76]

I think the choice is simple, if you don't like what your bank or any bank has to offer, go find a "better" one.

I did this and went with ING Direct who have paid me to bank with them. I get no account keeping fees (the thing which drove me away from the Commonwealth after 20+ years), plus they give me incentives to bank with them. When I signed up they had a promotion where you would get $20 for opening an account plus various lots of $20 for performing simple transactions, making first deposit, using your VISA debit for the first time etc. In all across my two accounts I opened, I received $120. :thumbsup:

Then just last year they ran a promotion where you had to deposit (I think it was $2000 minimum?) for each month for 3 consecutive months and you would receive a $100 bonus at the end. I was doing this already with my salary so I didn't have to do anything to claim the cash. :thumbsup:

Then there's my high interest savings account I have with ING which gave me a $50 bonus for signing up. And from time to time they run promotions where any money you deposit between a certain time frame will receive a bonus interest rate. :thumbsup:

I worked out that all this bonus money ING has given me, is the equivalent of roughly 5 and a half years of monthly account keeping fees the Commonwealth slugged me to play with my cash!

So I'm going to stand out like I sore thumb here and say, I love my bank! :lol:

[multiweb]

ING has good interest rates for new customers but after a couple of month it reverts to the standard variable rate which is very average. True though that there aren't any fees. Also if you withdraw more than $200.00 at a time they pay back the $2.00 ATM fee. From any ATM that is. I moved my personal and savings from St George to ING and never looked back. Another good one for savings is UBANK. They're part of NAB. No card - only internet banking. Again no fees but you can get between 5.5% and 6% interest on your savings so better than ING.

[cventer]

which means you love ANZ as they own ING

[Jules76]

True their interest rate isn't the best going around, but having instant access to my savings was another key deciding factor in taking the step to moving all my banking to them. I had a Saving's Maximiser already well established before I opened my normal accounts with them.



And that is a bad thing? :shrug:

Couldn't care less if it were owned by one of the "evil big four" (if that's what your getting at). Their doing right by me so I'm sticking with them for the foreseeable future.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Things going good Brian. :)

[Stardrifter_WA]

"Bank Bashing"....the new sport. :D

But, I love my bank :) It keeps adding money to my account each month, although it ain't all that much. As for paying interest....I don't! I don't borrow money, so cannot complain about interest rates, except when they go down. :sadeyes:

I learned all about interest when I had to pay 17% and later 13.5% for mortgages and about 21% for credit card, for which I had a fairly substantial monthly debt, at that time. Decided...never again! Worked really hard to rid myself of such curses, albeit with some luck.

Now, I buy everything on a credit card, purely to maximise my points value, and pay it off within the interest free period. I then use the accrued points for Coles gift cards, which then pays for my food, particularly during any difficult patches. For instance, this last Christmas was all paid for by my points, thanks to my bank! :D Also, all my purchases are covered by an insurance policy through my credit card, which also covers travel insurance too.

I work the system to "my" advantage, not the banks. I pay my debts on time and accrue no interest. Nor do I pay fees for banking. I earn interest on my account and I don't borrow money. I use the points to pay for necessities, thus reducing my budget, albeit by a small margin. But, every little bit helps! :)

Unfortunately, it sometimes means that I can't get what I want when I would like it, which can be a little annoying, and very tempting, particularly at present, as I would love to buy the new Explore Scientific 152mm ED Apochromat Triplet, that is soon to be released. I believe it will come in at about half the price of a 6" AP. Oh well, have to go without for a couple of years.

It would be easy for me to borrow money, but, I do not want to use bank funds and pay interest. There are many things that I could borrow money for, such as fixing up my house, but it would mean that I would have to pay a lot of interest to the bank, which I feel that I cannot actually afford. Nor do I feel like adding to bank profits.

So, I live within my means and I go without and save for the things I want instead. Also, I do not live an extravagant life, unfortunately, but that is the way it is. I am currently saving for a road trip across the US next year (assuming I get enough work this year) and I hope to time it for NEAF 2013. :D The 152 ED will just have to wait.

So, I love my bank :) But, only because I use it wisely :)

[Bassnut]

No mention yet we have the highest *personal* debt in the world and the second highest property values. Banks don't take risks in OZ?, really ?.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Yes, at last count (Nov 2011) "just" the credit card debt was $46.8 billion, which equates to approx. $2,300 for every man, woman and child in Australia; and that figure is growing. But, I am not adding to it though. :D

[brian nordstrom]

:D Me to , so betwen the two of us some poor person owes $6900 ,, OUCH ! . I play the same game as you Peter , when it comes to using them , and as I said earlier they dont like it one bit , You just gotta be smart and careful.
Brian.

[Stardrifter_WA]

Hey Brian, that's it, play them at their own game. But, I do feel sorry for those that are indebted to banks. However, many people have, since the GFC, been paying down debt. The banks don't like that either, as they just want to lend money. After all, it is their business model.

Cheers Peter :)

[cventer]

"They don't like it one bit ". Geeze I laugh. Good one lads keep playing them at their own game and making them richer in the process.

Sure the banks make some of their money from interest fees in cards from late payments. But a VERY large portion of the money they make comes from when you use your card as an interchange fee. The merchants pay this fee not you. So while you are cleverly beating the banks by using your cards for points they are rubbing their hands together every time you do. If you want to "Beat them" stuff your money in a matress and pay cash for everything.

But please keep beating them. Keeps me employed.

P.S Another fact our bank bashers wont like is that Australia has some of the lowest interchange fees in the world.

[FlashDrive]

:D To all you ' Bank Basher's ' out there ... Hip..Hip..Hoooooray ..!!!!:lol:.

I don't have a credit card either ... I did once upon a time ... saw the ' light ' and cut it up.... Haven't had one now for 5 years or so.

Gee .... life's great without it :P ... no undue stress when I go check the mail in the letter box ... no nasty surprises ...!!! :D

Flash'er ... :hi:

[Stardrifter_WA]

Yeah Flash, it is great not having to worry about the CC statement. Although I do have a CC, I use it wisely, as I am very disciplined. I always have zero balance at the end of each month, so don't have to worry about statements either. :D

[FlashDrive]

Now there's a ' wise ' man ..... in full control of the CC .... got it on a ' leash ' ... making it ' behave ' '''' thou' shalt not runneth' over thy limit nor cause me to dig deep into my pockets.....thus sayeth the Stardrifter. :rofl:

Flash'er :hi:

[TrevorW]

Shall I get started on Super Funds got my recent statement

paid in $3000 in six months

lost $5000

great at this rate who'd be able to retire

[mill]

That is very nice ;)
But if you really think your cute little cuddly bankbear isn't getting all that money back thru you, then your thinking is very flawed.
They don't give money out for free without getting it back and then some more, not ANY bank or institution is giving money away for free without getting it back with interest :welcome:

[Barrykgerdes]

I don't have any bother with the bank. The system I use saves me hours in account keeping and bill paying and doesn't cost me anything (well I lose a bit of interest on money in the current account I suppose).

The secret of course is not to borrow money from them!

Barry

[Stardrifter_WA]

:lol: :rofl:

Hey Flash, wasn't always that way, believe me, I learned the hard way, but as I got older I got wiser (that is, wised up to the banks).

Now, I make it work for me. I use my CC for everything, pay it off (usually every few weeks, as I just hate owing money), well before the interest free period ends, gain points and buy things with the banks money. What could be better? Added bonus is that I also have purchase and travel insurance with my CC. Yes, I realise that the bank is still making money off the transactions fees, but, they ain't a charity. After all, they extend a credit line to me and don't actually make any interest out of me, so I guess they have to win somewhere. However, the annoying thing is that they keep offering to extend my credit limit. But, that is no problem, as I just say no. Easy!

Nothing extra comes out of my pocket, so I am happy, as I gain a little each year, through points and interest paid on my account. Ain't much, but better than nix :D :lol:

[brian nordstrom]

:question: Oh yea dont forget ANZ and their 1.45 million dollar jaunt , they are putting on for 100 of their top performing ex's ? on the same week 1000 people are for the ax !!! raising interest rates etc , Mongrels .
Oh ? I see the 1.45 mil is down graded to only 500k after this news broke hmmm? , who do they think they are fooling ??? Treating us all wth total disrespect ! Only 500k , if its that small an amount they can give it to me instead ? what do ya recon?
Fun this bank bashing is .
Brian.

[multiweb]

The only way with SMSF is to get an ABN and do it all yourself. Lot of chonky joes and practices out there. And even then there's no garantee you'll get all your money at the end of the road. I think the govt will always find ways to tax people's savings. I've become very cynical about 'doing the right thing' over the years. Seems the ones who have all to loose are the ones who have saved in the first place. Buy some gold and go bury it somewhere. ;)

[Jules76]

Of course they do, I wasn't born yesterday.

But at the end of the day, I'm getting a better deal then I was at the Commonwealth and that's the point I'm trying to make. You don't like your current bank, find a new one!

I'm happy for them to take their share, it's basically part of the agreement you make with them in opening a up bank account. At the Commonwealth, they played with my money, slugged me $4 a month for that "privilege" and then threw me a couple of cents at the end and had the audacity to call it "interest" lol. At ING, they play with my money, don't charge me to do it, and in fact they give you incentives by throwing money at you. The Commonwealth never did any of that for me!

Oh and btw, YES banks do give money away for free without getting interest back. I know of people who take advantage of the sign up bonuses such as the one I mentioned where I got $120.00. They open accounts, jump through the hoops of making the qualifying transactions, then clean out the account. There was no dollar limit on the qualifying transactions so you could do it all with a few bucks. I know this because I scored the Direct Deposit bonus on my second account by simply going through the bank account verification process with Paypal (they deposit a few cents). :lol:

[Stardrifter_WA]

I am surprised by your comments, and others, about account keeping fees, etc. I am with one of the "big four" and I don't pay account keeping fees, nor do I pay transaction fees for ATM's. This didn't just happen, I negotiated it with bank, as I had been a long term customer. I guess they didn't want to lose my custom :D I am also able to negotiate a better interest rates on short term cash management (although I don't have a lot to invest). I pay nothing to the bank, but they extend credit to me and pay, what I feel, is a reasonable return on my savings.

Be aware that if you are getting little or no interest from your savings account, then you have the wrong account.

I read a lot of people have trouble dealing with their banks, but, I don't seem too. It's not like I am rich or anything, although I wish! I live on a meagre income and live within my means.

One of the problems that will arise in the future, I am sure, is banks will become disinclined to want to lend to people, particularly for mortgages, if you can simply change banks, every time a bank increases interest rates.

After all, why would a bank want to lend to you if you are seen to be a transient customer, as a persons credit history will show, if you keep changing your lenders. It is my understand that the banks margin on home loan interest rates are very low and that they make little from them.

A bank isn't a charity, it is a business that has to make money for the shareholders. It's not like only a few people are making all these billions, but many thousands of shareholders. When you borrow money you know that you will have to pay interest. That is the reason I now save for what I want and don't borrow money anymore.

I guess that is why I can negotiate with my bank, as I have been with them for decades. Maybe they think I will borrow money again from them in the future:question:

[cventer]

Once again Brian bank bashing based on uninformed inromation and what you read in the press is rediculous.

Who knows where the press get their info and why the genral public choose to believe everything they read.

The bank runs a reward and recognition programme for its staff that execs are NOT eligable for. This programme recognises hard work and dedication of staff whos efforts otherwise would go unrecognised. It is voted for by the banks own staff. Every year 1000's of employees from your most junior grad to bank tellers, call center and back office staff etc.. are nominated. 110 out of 39,000 staff are selected to attend a reward event. It varies every year. This year it happens to be a cruise. These staff have truly gone above and beyond to get nomninated for somthing like this, and recognising hard work can never be seen as a bad thing.

I have friends in sales, across electical companies to pharmaceuticals that go on 5 or 6 extravagant junkets a year as a reward. Banks do it once a year for those that realy deserve it and get flogged by uninformed press and members of the public....

[Ric]

Here's a utopian thought.

It would be fantastic if the government in power passed a law to restrict the banks mortgage rate to only what the reserve sets.

Wouldn't it be great to have a rate of only 4.5% or so.

Unfortunately no goverment is brave enough to challenge them, but I reckon that the government that did would end up in power for the 50 years. :D

[barx1963]

Time for me to jump in.
I am an ex bank employee and was fortunate to be involved in a bank "reward and recognition" program. We had about 100 of us for a weekend at Hyatt Coolum and had a great weekend. The program was a way of recognising good performance and we in the team at the branch I worked at put in really hard to get it. The next year a story appeared about this same program in the press and it was reported as a junket for fat cat bankers!
I find the bank bashing amusing. I know of an aquaintance of mine who I worked for who would complain loudly everytime any bank didn't pass on a rate cut in full, but in his own business if a supplier cut prices no way would he pass that on.
His moral was if a bank does it they are rogues, if he does it then he is a smart businessman.

Malcolm

[barx1963]

Ah what short memories we all have.
Back when I started work in one of the mean old banks, the Govt. set limits on bank lending through the reserve bank by regulating interest rates. It meant that credit was severely restricted. Back in the 70s and 80s customers had to go cap in hand to the Bank Manager and nearly beg to be allowed to borrow money. And the main effect was that banks didn't compete because there was no benefit to doing so.
After deregulation in the early 80s all of a sudden the customer now had some power. They could shop around for a better deal. And we bank employees all of a sudden had to be far more attentive to our customers needs.
Before then the customer had no power as all the banks offered identical products.
I know as I was working in the system at the time.
Price controls never work except very short term or in extreme situations eg war.

Malcolm

[strongmanmike]

It was reasonably obvious to me that this would be the likely case :)

Ah yes, sigh, A Current Affair/2GB style reporting strikes again :rolleyes:. Igniting the typical viewer/listener has a very simple set of triggers that get repeated over and over week in week out, regardless of the facts...and then these people get to vote :doh:

Mike

[brian nordstrom]

:lol: yes but I bet you they dont spent that kind of OBSCENE money on their's ,, Do the maths Mr bank lover $15000 per head for 5 days , I could not spend that much , you would run out of things to buy after 3 days ..
But dont forget the 1000 or so that are having their jobs AXED!!! and out sourced to India and the likes , These are only the first of many , many more . I hope your job security is solid ??? , being just another drone .
Brian.

[TrevorW]

Actually the intent of my original post was not to to incite a bank bashing thread but to elicit responses about how banks do not think outside the square are inflexible and really how competition does not in fact exist

unfortunately even with deregulation the big 4 banks have IMO control of the market

Real competition does not exist, if it did my bank would only be too willing to take into consideration 20 years of business and offer better rates and streamline services.

[FlashDrive]

Toooooo Late Trevor .... you've really started something here ..!!!

Vote 1 for Trevor ... the new CEO of IIS Banking Corp'

Written and Authorized by ' Flash ' :lol:

Flash :thumbsup:

[cventer]

Once again Brian you demonstrate your prowess at tabloid style journalism by jumping to factual conclusions without any real fact.

The trip is for those selected AND their partners. So that actualy makes it $6590 per head. Quite reasonable actualy.

You say I bet they (meaning non banks) dont spend that kind of OBSCENE money. What rubbish. Have you ever been to some of these corporate junkets ? I have ben to plnty. Last one I was at in software industry a mercedes SL500 was awarded to top salesman. last year XMAS, KMART took its management team to top hotel in melbourne for a night. paid for whole family including kids in 2 rooms and paid for baby sitter to watch kids in room while parent then ate at fancy restuarant and had a private show from cast of a play currently running. Cost well over 20k per family. A corporate box ticket to the Grandprix Per person costs over $7000 per head. Companies take 1000s of execs to these over the course of the Melbourne Grandpix...Clipsal takes many of its top customer to Bathurst and Indy car every year and puts them up in hotel suites with catered food wine and serving girls for the entire event.. I could go on with more actual facts but you dont seem to like these.

As for the 1000's of staff read my earlier post for some fact behind this as well.

As for my Job being solid. I was told in November last year my role did not exists along with 40 or so of my collegues. I had to go through a riguours 2 month process to reapply for a smaller number of bigger roles. I was successfull. Some of my collegues and friends not. I am smart enough however and practical enough to realise this downsize happened for a good commercial reason. It did not make good commercial sense to have more roles than needed at that level. Had I not been successfull I would have moved on and just found anoher job..not blamed the bank for all my woes....

[Kevnool]

Apart from the shareholders this thread is really an interesting read.

Cheers

[TrevorW]

I recently learned something else about super funds generally if you choose Australian shares inevitably the portfolio will be limited to the 10 top OZ companies which include the big 4 banks.

Also consider that a lot of the other banks are affiliated with one of the major banks

So which ever way we turn they get a piece of us one way or another

[Bassnut]

No, you have piece of them. You OWN a piece of them. As a shareholder, why dont you write them a letter and beg for them to please lower the loan/morgage interest rate, be more friendly and make less money, so you can have a lower payout on yr super when you retire?.

Just make sure yr super fund doesnt move yr money elswhere when the profits go down, you wouldnt want that.

[PCH]

Fred,

that is so funny. I've been resisting the urge to contribute to this thread - but I will have to congratulate you on your witty cynicism there. :lol::thumbsup:

I'll stick that in my litle book of 'things I wish I'd said!'

[Stardrifter_WA]

Crazy idea :eyepop: Then you would be in the last generation of mortgagees.

Kill the banks, then you will have to rely on a bunch of Shylock's. Now that would a great idea. Not! :P

[TrevorW]

Know how the banking system started, loans ie: the lending of money

The first records of such activity dates back to around 2000 BC in Assyria and Babylonia. Later, in ancient Greece and during the Roman Empire, lenders who were based in temples made loans but also added two important innovations: accepting deposits and changing money. During this period, there is similar evidence of the independent development of lending of money in ancient China and separately in ancient India.

Yes Fred I have written to the banks about their lack of concern for their long term customers with little effect unlike other industries where people support good companies and walk away from bad with their buying power banks are not concerned about customers going elsewhere because they collectively control our money

so unless you are mortgage free/ don't invest in super/ don't loan/lend money and keep everything in a safe at home, then one way or another the banks have got you by the balls

[Stardrifter_WA]

Hey Brian, how's things in the top end?

I agree with you, to a point. It doesn't matter anyway, as the bank has cancelled these incentives anyway, due to community expectations. The timing was pretty damn lousy, for sure.

Employing people is difficult enough as it is, particularly given the "red tape" and other compliance costs and government intrusion.

If we all went to work and put in an absolute maximum effort, incentives wouldn't be needed. Unfortunately, some people work harder than others. So, the one's that work harder, should they get the same as those that don't? Incentives give everyone a reason to try and achieve their best. It works in all industries, not just banks. :D

[Stardrifter_WA]

Yeah Trevor, leave all your money in your mattress, or elsewhere in your house. If the house burns down, then you really will have nothing. Don't laugh, I know someone this happened to, all because he didn't like banks. :sadeyes: Not everyone can afford a fire proof safe :D