Desalination, the way of the future? [Archive]

ving

09-03-2006, 03:07 PM

Desalination is a hot topic at the moment and has been for a little while here in sydney.
With water levels in sydneys dams at an all time low and not seeing a bright future for them, desalination is said to be the future of water supply for a portion (at least ) of sydney in the form of a delsalination plant at Kurnell.

The questions are, is this just an easy way out or do we have no choice? should we use less water? what are your thoughts on this?

are there other alternatives?

a desalination plant would create quite a few jobs and eleviate the water restrictions currently in place most likely. there seems to be very little in the way of environmental impact in the creation of such a plant... maybe water rates would drop too.
but then would we just go about our old ways of wasting this resource? it'd be near endless in supply after all....

discuss the implications and kyour views here :D

(yup, i am bored...)

stinky

09-03-2006, 04:19 PM

Desalination has Massive environmental impact. It takes a lot of energy to get the salt out of the water. Since we are now running out of oil with an increasing demand on fuel only the reckless would pursue desalination. - how to make one problem into 3!

If every house in Sydney had a 1000 gallon water tank to collect water instead of allowing it to run into the sea there would be no need for water restrictions. Surely even the irony of this is obvious to the politicians - channeling fresh water into the ocean so that it can be desalinated??????

acropolite

09-03-2006, 04:30 PM

I'm (mostly) with Stinky, from what I've seen, desalination is not an option for Sydney's water problems. Regarding the 1000 galon water tank, to be of much use that would have to be at least 5000 gallons, even that would be too small for self sufficiency all year round. A 5000 Gallon Tank can be had for under $2000, not out of reach of the average household. The answer really is to address the problems that are causing water shortage that is population increase and climate change and to encourage more recycling of water. It's absurd to throw away good water simply because someone has showered or washed clothes in it.

fringe_dweller

09-03-2006, 04:36 PM

I think we should stop pussyfooting around and get on with building nuclear power stations all over Oz to supply the huge amount of power necessary for desalination.
Its ridiculous this resitance to us becoming an extremely prosperous country. We are sitting on the worlds biggest deposit of uranium and that makes us in affect like equivalent of the middle east of nuclear power. lets stop stuffing around with this misquided aversion to nuclear power, which i am sure is promoted by the coal industry lol.
i mean tiny little countries like sweden has no problem with having reactors , and we have the giant outback to stick them in which is geologically the most stable land mass on earth. (just hope a giant meteorite doesnt hit them )
Modern reactors can be built a lot more safer than 50's 60's ones that are the examples of accidents in history, then with australia's amazing 36 000 klm of coast we will hit the jackpot, - i am normally a greenie in most ways - but i am sick of this backwards view holding us back from vast riches
forget windpower, geothermal and the rest thats all just a big wank, STOP STUFFING AROUND AND GET ON WITH IT!!!!!!

ving

09-03-2006, 04:46 PM

the problem jearn is disposing of the waste... it really cant be done safely as yet. tanks in our backyards would be great (how about large blocks of units tho) but with decreasing rainfall they'd never fill...

stinky

09-03-2006, 05:04 PM

Actually 1000 gallon tanks would make a huge difference. A 5000 tank here in SE Qld. (Much dryer than Sydney) is ample for a couple all year round - total self sufficiency.

Get rid of the lawn - a rediculous notion imported from pommy land (never see that in Asia!) sucks water. Think of all the time saved from NOT mowing. :)

Still reckon it's cheaper to catch it save it than building nuclear power plants though...

BTW even a 10% reduction in useage would be more water than could be desalinated. Should be easy eh?

cjmarsh81

09-03-2006, 05:35 PM

I'm with you stinky. Lawns are an incredible waste of time. Just think of all those sprinklers getting the lawn green so someone can come along and mow it down again. I think they look ridiculous and personally think everyone should replace their lawns with chilli plants.

As for Desalination. The Politicians should cut down on their extravagant tax-paid lunches and the like and that should easily fund water tanks for everyone in Sydney. Seriously, the government should be providing water tanks to all Australian homes. I am sure they can find the funding for it somewhere. What Australia needs is a good and honest accountant to go and see where all of Australia's tax-payer money is going. I am sure it is going to useless endeavours.

For example. When I lived down in Victoria a couple of years ago the local council commissioned an artist to build a metal sculpture to put outside of the council offices. It looked absolutely ridiculous. It looked like a squashed basketball on a pole. They paid this idiot $25000 for this monstrosity, another $2500 to put in a concrete footing and another $5000 to transport it from the artist. I wrote a letter of complaint to the Mayor(a rather nasty one) who sent back a letter saying she was sorry I did not like it!!!

Another such occurance from the same council was when they were sending some of the politicians to another country(about a dozen I think) for some cooked up diplomacy meeting. They bought them brand new digital cameras to take with them and keep afterwards with tax-payer money. And, these were not Kmart jobs, they were really good digital cameras.

If Australia cracked down on this sort of rubbish Australia-wide, we would have such a sur-plus of tax-payer money they could fund water tanks Australia-wide and also reduce taxes.

In Conclusion,

POLITICIANS ARE THIEVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

fringe_dweller

09-03-2006, 05:44 PM

But David the waste from coal and fossil fuels just go into the air we breathe, and contributes to global warming they claim at the moment.
We have the most perfect locations for the nuclear waste in the world also,
I admit i dont want the worlds nuclear waste comin here either, and i hate that arguement that 'coz it came from here it has to come back here' - does that mean all the old sump oil/ whitegoods in landfills ect. ect should go back to their country of origin? thats ridiculous! anyway they will come up with a bacteria or something equally simple that will eat/nutrealise the waste anywayz mebbe?
regarding saving water on east coast - some states and parts of states dont have your kind of rainfall to save in the first place - its these places that need delsalination - and we need more water for industry (industry and farming here in SA uses like 70% of our water and power - its not going on lawns thats the problem!) to expand - for mining ect., ie they are going to build a desalination plant at port augusta here for the expanded uranium mine - oh the irony! - otherwise they would have to use the artesian basin - which i would rather was left alone
also having lawns allows some of the water to return to the aquifier, concrete just directs it down the stormwater, but into days of the macmansion it doesnt matter anymore - there isnt enough of the block left anyway :P

fringe_dweller

09-03-2006, 05:54 PM

and if there is so much water on the east coast - why are all the cotton farmers ect in QLD/NSW/Vic sucking the Murray/Darling basin dry? leaving a trickle to come down to us
why are we growing cotton in this dry old place anyway??? :screwy:

norm

09-03-2006, 11:12 PM

This is a hot topic if you live in Sydney!!!

Ok here's my 2 roberts worth:

1. In metro Sydney we need to conserve water and the best method is to install rainwater tanks. This should be initiated by the State government and be offered to any household that want or can install a tank. I have a 2000litre tank and since I've installed it on and using only 24m2 of surface area to collect water, its never been emptied. I use it regularly to water the garden. Sure if its plumbed to the house toilet, washing machine consumption would quadruple but the point I'm making is that its a start.
Nothing is more depressing to see than watching runoff from a typical Sydney arvo thunderstorm and going to stormwater drains and not being harvested.
2. Desalination imo is not feasible, the electrical comsumption, not to mention the greenhouse gases generated to produce clean water is not cost effective.
4. More emphasis needs to made on re-cycling water.
5. Nuclear energy, as in most people's views its the disposal of the waste product. Sure noone really wants it in their backyard, but having said that, we live in a vast country where it could be very feasible and relatively safe to bury the stuff km's below the ground and manage it. This could certainly create a new industry and employment for many people. The point I am getting at here is, what do countries like China, India and other emerging 3rd world countries do with there waste (excluding enrichment purposes for nuke arsenal!!)? Can these countries be trusted to dispose of there waste that is deemed morally acceptable to the rest of the world? I'd rather take our chances and see our government make this offering than hear about it 10yrs down the track that some country is burning it off or dumping it in the ocean!

I don't know the Federal Governments water policy is, but certainly Iemma's policy lacks backbone and depth.

Congrats Ving !!! you've opened a can of worms here :lol: ;) :D :) !

lost_in_space

09-03-2006, 11:21 PM

No problem atoll. Send it to France.

lost_in_space

10-03-2006, 12:04 AM

Can of worms indead!... Well done Ving.

Just a couple of brass wazzoos worth of comments which will probably be ingnored or flamed!

Tidal power can generate the 'lectrickery to power the desalination plant. Where do you dump the excess salt? France?

More water is wasted from Sydney reserves due to faulty/ broken infrastructure plumbing than is used by all of the final consumers. Make them fix it.

Plumb your house so grey water from the shower etc is recycled to flush the loo. It doesn't take much to do it. Don't tell the council.

Forget lawns. Why spend money on water and fertilisers and weed killers (which have their own power problems in manufacturing) for the priviledge of cutting them every weekend and wasting the clippings. Make a worm farm if you are doing that. Your garden will love you for it. Don't have a garden? Grow one.

If you install a water tank the gubmint will find a way to tax you for the gift of water from the skies.

Buy your grog in bottles not cans. Al costs more to produce than you pay for it, and it is subsidised by domestic consumers in their power bill. Better still make your own (still).

Don't buy newspapers. They use a lot of water and nasty chemicals, they are innacurate, carry old news (compared to the Internet) and have reporters of dubious ethical quality. They do make good worm food though! (The paper, not the reporters, they are too full of indigestible bs). The paper contains old growth forests that feed and balance the ecocsystem of our little planet. They absorb the gasses that cause bad seeing. Every newspaper you read degrades seeing.

Back to work now, more to come when this job is finished.:)

Jonathan

10-03-2006, 12:04 PM

I agree, nuclear power all the way. But according to Mike Rann (SA Premier), we don't have enough uranium. I'm not kidding, I heard those words come out of his mouth :lol:, he also said setup costs were too high. SA has got the worlds largest Uranium deposits, and is expanding the mine which will include a desalination plant with a water pipeline from Whyalla to Olympic Dam.

Disposal of nuclear waste is always a hot topic, but for those that are against dumping it in the desert I encourage you to drive through central Australia to guage how much space there really is out there, it cannot be comprehended by just looking on a map. I don't like the idea of just dumping radioactive waste, but I prefer that to using up all the coal, gas and oil in the world and pumping CO2 into the atmosphere. I'd also prefer all the radioactive waste sitting in hospital basements in our cities to be moved into the desert as well.

fringe_dweller

10-03-2006, 06:20 PM

LOL well if it isnt feasible why the heck does everyone want it? they must be misguided! shhhh dont tell them :whistle:
I am thinking I may have been a bit niave when I said we own all that yellowcake? - of course we probably dont as aussies, I would guess multinationals actually own it, like anything of value here, we just get the crumbs ie jobs and the taxes from it? but they do create and pay for the infrastructure I guess - mebbe someone in the know could enlighten me :D
and haliburton didnt build that adelaide darwin rail link for nothin i guess? i am sure nuke waste is going somewhere along that route, i think poor old NT is now lumped with it
ps does evryone know sa/nt used to be one big state?

mickoking

10-03-2006, 09:59 PM

G,day cobbers,

here in WA we are currently building desalination plants where the power is going to be supplied by windfarms.

As for Nuclear power, Im a Greenie but I believe It should be honestly investigated ( by impartial non government types). I think a good idea would be to match KiloWatt for KiloWatt energy from renewable and non polluting sourses with the energy from Nuclear power so we don't put all our eggs in one basket and we still investigate clean energy. Sadly I think if our government introduces Nuclear power you can kiss any other type of clean power good bye, their track record on the environment is abyssmal :mad2:

stinky

11-03-2006, 12:12 AM

Don't worry - nuclear power is still too expensive to be viable (about 3x conventional). Back to water - would the population be happier with water costs increasing by a factor of 3 or some form of conservation?

fringe_dweller

11-03-2006, 01:15 AM

getting back to 'desalination, the way of the future' how your going to power it, nuke power only cost a lot on paper because of the building of the power plant/reactors - it is astronomical I believe , but once its running it cost bugger all for the next 30-50? years
re wind power and tree hugging lentil eating hippies - I had laugh when i read recently that all the beautiful new wind farms blighting the horizon in their hundreds and thousands (eventually) on our beautiful coastlines, have to be shut down in hot weather as they will burn out - sounds like a european sports car inthe desert to me :p :p :p - exactly the time when the grid needs the power the most when the aircon goes on :P
not to mention the thousands of native birds being minced in the blades
I dont think windpower or solar power would power a big serious desalination plant. and also re costs of conventional power - what about the cost of global warming - is that factored in?
but I should say i agree with every angle being covered, including full recovery of storm water - which adelaide is the leader in, in oz btw

fringe_dweller

11-03-2006, 01:21 AM

oh btw and every gigantic windmill has a light on top of them for aircraft safety that is on all night :D
EDIT: another little fact i like about windfarms is that as much pollution is created making and installing a single one as each one saves in its lifetime :screwy:

ving

11-03-2006, 10:12 AM

light pollution on wind farms hey? ;)
:lol:

it'd cost billions but we could collect spent new-killer wastes and launch it into the sun (ala superman)

fringe_dweller

11-03-2006, 01:26 PM

hey David, yes mate light and visual pollution imo
I dont mean to hijack your excellent thread, but this issue is important all over oz, not just sydney. In fact in sa this has been a hot topic for a fair bit longer than elsewhere prolly, due to us being the driestest state on the driestest continent and all that.
what i find amusing is that i never heard the astronomers complaining when cassini was launched with 10 kg of plutonium on board - and if it had exploded in the upper atmosphere when it took off, or when it did a close sling shot back past earth, could put enough radioactive material in the upper atmosphere to kill half the planet!

acropolite

11-03-2006, 06:32 PM

Kearn wroteTwo wrongs don't make a right Kearn, I don't trust anything, especially if it's made or designed in the US. Radioactive waste isn't something that breaks down in years or even centuries, to leave such hazardous compounds for future generations is IMO irresponsible. Alternatives such as Wind, Wave and Solar are the answer, together with energy conservation.

mickoking

11-03-2006, 06:56 PM

I hope they can find an economical way to use Fusion power generation, Thats good, clean nuclear power :thumbsup:

Apparently the Russians want to mine Helium 3 (for nuclear fusion) from the moon starting in 2020. If they can do it that Would be fantastic.

fringe_dweller

11-03-2006, 08:11 PM

guys I sincerely wish there was a serious alternative, like minature black holes or anyone of those mentioned in fact would be fantastic, and who knows maybe they will develop into something substantial. i realise that their hearts are in the right place.
But lets face we need solutionss right now! may I remind you we are still waiting for the flying car!!? and that was from the 50's!
And Phil south aussies are very familiar with the consequences of radiation, from when the poms used to test atom bombs on us and especially the local aboriginies at maralinga (well they never found a whole tribe in fact, just their shadows i think?) in the 50's and 60's
any sa gp whos been here long enough will tell you about the long term generational effects (mostly cancers) from the clouds of radioactivity that the prevailing winds carried to adelaide and on some occasions over qld and nsw - whole east coast in fact once? lovely

gaa_ian

11-03-2006, 09:48 PM

A very interesting thread ....
I'm all for the Water tanks Idea.
Sad fact is the Govt made people remove their yukky old watertanks in Brisbane years ago, now you are penalised if you dont put one in when you build a new house:screwy:
On the issue of Lawns ... I think they are great :thumbsup:
Anyone who has young kids would understand why.
.... OK kids, go out and run around in the dirt !
What, another set of clothes to wash !
Oh well I will just do 2 or 3 loads more loads of clothes washing :rolleyes:
Oh but hang on that will use more water & of course I will have to buy more clothes for them (probably cotton :eyepop:, what a wasteof water)
Hmmmm I think I had better grow my Lawn back :D

ACE

12-03-2006, 09:24 PM

And burning coal and creating greenhouse emissions is more responsible ? Skin cancer is on the up and up thanks to the breakdown of the ozone layer.

I would have to disagree with the above.

FWIW: Coal effecieny is roughly 3 kWh per kg.
Gas - 5 kWh per kg
Nuclear - 50000 kWh kg

Solar/wind - just not viable atm.

If hydrogren could be tapped safely, our preys would be answered - and the byproduct - H2O.:)

stinky

12-03-2006, 10:13 PM

Could you convert that into $ per Kw/h operation rather than kilograms?

And back to the thread about desalination - I just watched an advert about a new mother saying she could not believe how much (cost) washing detergent she was using. We'll only see true management of water when the adverts are saying "how much water" is being used.

Bottom line - we have no need of nuclear - or desalination if we stop wasting energy and water. When people see these two item as interchangeable (with attached personal cost) we are over half way to a solution (no pun!)......

Adrian-H

12-03-2006, 10:53 PM

i recommend this book.
The Singularity Is Near : When Humans Transcend Biology

ving

13-03-2006, 11:06 AM

I think we should all run around naked ;)

for those that dont like lawns, what alternative would you sugest?
concrete?
bitumen?
just plain dirt?

I dont like any of those alternatives... yeah mowing is a pain in the butt, but its better than these alternatives

norm

13-03-2006, 11:21 AM

Astroturf and that recycled rubber stuff in childrens play areas in parks are alternatives to lawn.

Having said that I prefer lawn. Kids need somewhere to play and there is no real substitute for lawns/grass. Imagine playing britsh bulldog on bitumen - ouch!

A lot of people no longer water their lawns in Sydney due to restrictions and most seem to stay green. Occassionally you may get the old dry patch but grass is fairly tough and seems to re-juvenate itself over time, albeit with the damn weeds!

I think the majority of people of Australia wide are responsible for water management and conservation. Its just seems to be the governments dilly dally, wishy washy approach to making decisions that hold back many proactive, pragmatic water reform ideas.

ving

13-03-2006, 11:27 AM

its funny, my backyard (which is pretty small) is nice and green for the most part, but my front yard is starting to look like a desert (not the type with chocolate topping)... weeds wont even grow in the front yard!

desalination? yeah sure! most people are fairly conservative now with water so maybe another supply is required.

fringe_dweller

13-03-2006, 04:51 PM

maybe we just need a few 'Z' machines for the required power? :D http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap060313.html

acropolite

15-03-2006, 12:11 PM

Ace wrote Try telling that to Aurora Tasmania(the power utility). In Tasmania we don't burn coal BTW, most of our power is produced by Hydro and to a lesser extent wind farms with a small proportion (backup only when necessary) by Gas. As for solar not being viable, that's simply not true, the setup costs are high but the technology is (and has been for decades) achievable if not overly affordable.