$10 dollar yearly fee suggestion

[hotspur]

Just a suggestion-this is sure to stir up a hornets nest-but that is not my intention-simply an idea to improve this useful site.

Now-there are always going to be issues on any forum.But I did notice over on the fishing forum they have a $10 yearly fee-at first I was not impressed.But it was pointed out to me-all the reasons why-its not cheap to own and run these forums.

How many people join to sell one item,and never come back?

How many people cause issues-get booted off,re join in 3 minutes
under a different name and cause headaches?

Helps eliminate time wasters.

These are just a few reasons why I feel a small fee would help.Its not very
pleasant,to think of having to pay-But I no longer buy astronomy magazines or photography magazine or fishing magazines.

Now they cost a whole lot more that $10 per year,and these forums are a hell of a lot better,for improving my fishing and astrophotography etc.

On this site alone we have free access to some very good information-If you had to buy magazines it would cost alot more and would not be as good .

Anyhow-after having a minor derailment on this site and getting burned,which is no fault of the site or mods.I just had to give some
thought towards a helpful suggestion that might improve it.Some will say
"Oh-Mike makes heaps from all the adds"-but that's crap-would'nt even cover all his headache pills.

[koputai]

Whilst I would be more than happy to pay to use this site if there was a fee, I think instituting one would be detrimental to the overall goodness of the site.

There would be a lot of people who are frequent and very knowledgeable contributors here, that would disappear because they wouldn't want to pay. Anyone who was born in the UK for a start! :D

Of course, it would keep a lot of the time wasters away, but I think it would drive away some very useful people, as well as deter newcomers to the hobby from joining.

Anyone who is concerned about Mike's children's education can donate to Ice In Space, there's a very useful link to the lower left!

Cheers,
Jason.

[OICURMT]

You could also go the AstroMart route and charge a one time fee (U$12 for AM).

This would hinder people who are here as "time wasters" to quote Chris...

Either way is cool for me, but I suspect that people trying to get into Astronomy may see the dollars as a hindrance. Also, what about the international community, albeit modest. Transferring money internationally is usually costly for small sums, as there is a minimum transfer fee.

OIC!

[hotspur]

Yes Jason-that's possible. (Had a good chuckle on part of you post:lol:)

But,really-its the 21 st century-those magazines at the news agent are so expensive-at what happens to them all-boxes and :shrug: boxes everywhere!
and when I want to read an article on 'Nuggets' how to throw a bait net.I know its in a magazine in one of the ten boxes....Its easier just to go on line and see his little video tut.

And so to with all this photography stuff,I cannot really see anyone coughing too much over ten dollars.Over on the fishing forum still lots of knowledgable
people there that have not run away (no U.K members :D)

Really-just a suggestion,being a scientific forum I hope this will be seen with reason and logic.I must say the fishing forum seems to have a lot less headache issues.

[GeoffW1]

Hi,

Two things - first why not make this question a poll ? It may have been done already in fact, I never looked.

Then, on balance, I have to agree with Jason, if we are also agreed that the final objective is to have the most thriving and useful forum in Oz (that's my opinion of it).

Having said that, it's obviously high time I made a donation, since nearly every bit of gear and knowledge I have comes from here :thanx:

Cheers

[astroron]

Paying $10.00 might keep a lot of people off here who only come on too whinge.
this stuff has all been through before.
Do you notice the adds on the side ? they help pay for the site,but but if you want to donate then Mike will gladly except your donations :D
Cheers :thumbsup:

[Octane]

Keep it free, please. I'm already poor from buying so much gear.

Feel free to donate if you wish. To IceInSpace, too.

H

[Brundah1]

Annual fees may defeat the original concept of web based Special Interest Groups! I agree with Jason's comments on this point.

Less experienced members (like me), all benefit from the continued involvement of those older more experienced Amateur Astronomers, who could easily spend their time elsewhere. So why punish them with fees?

However perhaps a join-up fee of AUD10 would achieve a similar outcome to that part of Chris's suggestions. But keep it small, so school age would be astronomers will not be deterred!

More importantly the intention of Chris's suggestion should include the introduction of a more rigorous requirement to provide real personal identity information on the membership form. Plus a more explicit statement beside the "tick the box" - indicating this has legal implications contained in the "Terms of Service and Privacy Policy".

Obviously real personal identity information should be protected within a Privacy Policy statement, but should allow Website Owners the right to provide this information to the Police; when suspected fraud; or other serious breaches of TOS&PP occur.

[bojan]

Personally, I would go away from this forum if fee is requested for membership.

Despite the fact that it costs a lot to maintain this site, we are still (well, most of us) amateurs and we are here to learn and to offer our knowledge to others
That means, in principle, no money should exchange hands for sharing information, ideas and experience.
Maybe I am wrong, but it is my impression that my contribution to this forum was useful for some (possibly even financially, I will never know that and I don't really want to know) - so how about if I start charging for this in the future?
I am more than sure that many other contributors to this forum would feel the same about the issue should something like this is ever introduced.

Classifieds section might be treated differently, though.
Perhaps a small percentage of the selling price should be contributed to the forum to help offset the cost of running it? However, this will be Mike's decision.

[AndyK]

I belonged to a very active photography forum ... lots of members both in Australia and internationally. A vast amount of collective knowledge and a brilliant resource.

The admins decided to make it a paid site ... a very modest fee, but still a fee.
That was basically the end of the site. Membership dropped precipitously within the first few months. People disappeared in droves ... among them some of the most experienced amateur photographers in the country.

The admins did a backflip and changed the policy to voluntary donation ... but it was too late. Too many people had left and never came back. The site is still going but now only has a handful of members. In less than a year the site went from being probably the prime site in it's genre in Australia to complete obscurity and irrelevance.

[koputai]

I know that Chris's main idea was the added security of people paying, rather than supporting site costs, however, these are two important points that can be addressed separately.

Security (for want of a better word) can be achieved through more rigorous joining and posting restrictions.

Site costs can be ammeliorated by donations.

Perhaps we could have a yearly donation drive. Say once a year a thread gets posted where people can make a donation for the following year. No strings attached, but an organised short term thread might get more people to donate than just leaving it up to them over the year.

Another alternative is a 'badge' type system. If you donate $100 you get a gold badge on your avatar for a year, $50 silver, $25 bronze, $10 Chinese diecast alloy.

Cheers,
Jason.

[Octane]

Hrm, this talk of money makes me feel uneasy, to be honest.

Neither Mike, nor, Terry have come out and said that they need money to keep the site afloat. Until that day comes, I should think that those who wish to donate, can do so by clicking the donate link, while those who wish to enjoy the site as is, continue to do so.

Bojan raises a good point -- the help and assistance that people provide on this site is for free. Some may argue that the knowledge transferred from people to people is worth more than a fee to use the site. If a fee was introduced, those amateurs wouldn't see a cent.

H

[hotspur]

Well worded David.

That is along the lines of my suggestion-in fact it would appear a small one off fee might be better.

I do finding it very surprising that some replies are aghast at the suggestion.I can really see no logical reason why some would bail out
and other photography forums died from something similar.But many of these
same people would not worry about the price of cigerattes and booze.

The fishing forum that has the $10 yearly fee is like the size of POTN-i'd never have time to get around all the sub forums.But its not died at all.
Suppose-most astronomers are much tighter after seeing what goes on here.

Anyhow-its simply a suggestion,and up for reasonable and logical discussion not a KKK bon fire.

Other forums I am on have free membership free everything,but if you pay a yearly fee or a one off fee,you do get extra's-like lots of 'Pigeon holes' (not sure what the right name is.But it means you can store threads,images,all sorts of stuff,that you can do only on a limited basis on the free plan-which is still very good.

I think most here,end up regularly visiting two or three of their hobby forum.So I feel that a small fee of 0.03 cents a day is not all that expensive.

Anyhow-that's the last I'll suggest on it

[vanwonky]

As much as I would like to see Mike making money from this site I also think the joining fee would kill it. I think the depth / value of some forums aren't immediately apparent when you have just come across it from a search and if you are hit by a fee straight up you might just take off without finding out. Especially for newbie who might be just toying with the idea of astronomy like me. Now look - I can't afford a fee from buying something new every five minutes!
I know I hate forums that insist on you joining before viewing content. I can't think of one that I have joined and for me a fee would have the same effect.

A bit elitist methinks :shrug:
Cheers
Dave

[AndyK]

It's simply human nature. While the photography forum in question might have been the best one, it wasn't the only one. Their main competition remained free ... so guess where all the members went?
The site that remained free is now probably the premiere site in Australia.
You couldn't really expect any other outcome. Nobody is going to stick around an obscure and unpopulated forum just because they have strong principles ... particularly when all the movers and shakers have gone elsewhere.



I find that perhaps a tad offensive. Not everyone who doesn't support the idea of mandatory fees is a hopeless bogan who blows their paycheck on booze and cigarettes. How do you know who here may have already donated ... and to what extent?

[OICURMT]

Maybe a little different spin here... thoughts welcome.

What if the site was strictly a one off payment for the privilege of posting items for sale? No one is specifically stating it, but I suspect that everyone is most concerned with the problematic members (be they new or old) when they post items for sale. A fee would deter them, but not eliminate them.

The main advantage would be that at least a "paper trail" could be generated as the administrators would at least have a single piece of critical information to give the authorities should they request it. IIS could change the TOS to specifically include an addition that IIS reserves the right to pass on details to the designated authorities should they request the information in cases of fraud or theft.

This would probably give IIS buyers some comfort and allow those who do sell an easier time of it.

OIC!

[Octane]

OIC,

Mike has stated numerous times that he has no interest getting involved in that type of setup.

I don't blame him, either.

H

[AndyK]

It might well be that the classifieds section is the most problematic ... but is a fee the best way to deal with that?

Many other forums which run classifieds require a certain period of membership along with a demonstrable degree of participation in other areas of the forums before being allowed to post items for sale.

[OICURMT]

Bottom line is that there is no easy solution... as for the best way, face to face is the only way to completely avoid any pitfalls.

OIC!

[OICURMT]

Message received.

I guess the obvious way to avoid the pitfalls of having a classified section is to eliminate it... :(


Me thinks' that Chris has opened a can o'worms with this topic... :scared3:

[koputai]

I don't think there is a problem, therefore we don't really need a solution.

Cheers,
Jason.

[AndyK]

Exactly! ... :)

Also, browse to http://www.iceinspace.com.au/subscribe-to-iceinspace.html and read the bit highlighted in blue. Given that statement, the entire argument is probably academic.

[astroron]

Well said Jason :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Cheers:thumbsup:

[troypiggo]

My thoughts:

If threads keep getting posted complaining about the classifieds here, you run the risk of peeing the mods off and it'll get closed. We lose.

If people stick to Mike's excellent advice on how to protect yourself there, risk is minimized to both buyers and sellers.

I fear that many of the more experienced members that contribute their knowledge for free might start wondering why they bother if they start getting charged for the privilege.

And finally, this paid subscription idea wouldn't have helped you in your case anyway, Chris, based on my limited understanding of what went down. The member would probably have been a paying, long term member.

[Octane]

Well said, Troy. :)

H

[hotspur]

You obviously did not read my very first post,Troy-learn to read.:shrug:

There is no problem here,as Jason said.It was simply a suggestion.I have not started this thread to go on about my recent loss-other members seem to be going on about that-I have not opened up a can of worms-those that are going on about that -have.

My suggestion was,and- please read,

Was that the introduction of a yearly $10 fee,or as David has put up a once of fee would help improve this great site.go back to my first post to see a few reasons why.

I am feed up with people mentioning my loss,so just move on,and read the :shrug: words and not 'read' into it.I've never seen a forum so anal as this-people just get the wrong end of the stick and go off on a tangent-nothing like this ever happens on any of the other forums.

[AndyK]

You were right. You were sure it would stir up a hornet's nest ... and it looks like it has! :)

As I said earlier though, regardless of the merit or otherwise of the suggestion, the entire argument is probably academic in light of the statement to be found elsewhere on this site ...

[troypiggo]

Chris, maybe you should learn to read, or at least remember what you write. You brought up your "getting burned" in the last paragraph of post #1 of this very thread! So don't have a go at me for mentioning it when you are the one who has posted a couple of threads since the incident, not me. We have moved on, maybe you should too.

And aside from that, it was just an example from me showing why the fee system wouldn't work.

And regarding the meat of your first post, please re-read my post. I clearly gave my reasons why I don't think it's a good idea.

Apologies for getting little short here, but I took your reply personal and hypocritical.

[h0ughy]

nice discussion guys but making it personal is not the answer - moving to mods area for discussion and after that the post may return.

[iceman]

Moving this back to General Chat.

Keep the personal stuff out of it, but all that needs to be said, has already been said about this suggestion.

IceInSpace will NEVER charge a fee to join the site, use the site, read the forums, articles, reviews etc. IceInSpace is 100% free to use and always will be.

As for the classifieds, as Troy said, if people follow the suggestions I've already given in another thread, there shouldn't be any problem.

If people wish to donate a small percentage of a sale as a gesture of "thanks for the service", or if people wish to donate any amount as a gesture of "thanks for the site", then of course we gladly accept and appreciate any donations of any amount.

However we don't need donations to prop up the site. The advertising pays for the site. Donations are simply gestures of good will and it's completely up to any individual if they wish to donate.

[Octane]

woohoo, thanks, Mike. :)

I can rest easy now that I'm no longer a "tight astronomer". :rollseyes:

H

[Miaplacidus]

Can't we just put up a "No riff-raff" sign???

[koputai]

H, you could see a doctor, he could put a stitch in it for you !!:P

Cheers,
Jason.

[Kevnool]

Move along nothing to see here.

Its Sunday just relax.

[Octane]

lol, Jason! Pain. :P

H

[mishku]

+1

Good idea, Brian :lol:

[erick]

I have a view....




....but it will cost you to hear it :eyepop:




OK, a freebie, just this once. :D

I'm comfortable with the way IceinSpace is run. If I wasn't, I guess I would chat with Mike about it, or just go away. I work from the basis that I don't own the IIS site nor control it, I'm just pleased to be part of the community and, if I behave myself according to the Terms of Service (TOS), I should be able to stay a part. I'm confident that Mike, Terry and the moderator team listen to what the members say and make reasonable adjustments from time to time in response, apart from developments they identify themselves. But this ain't no democracy, and I wouldn't expect it to be.

Let's stick to the astronomy, photography and some other general chat things that may interest enough members, within TOS-defined limits, and we should all do just fine. :)

[theodog]

:sadeyes: Where did everybody go?:lol:

[pgc hunter]

I think we already get slugged with enough fees for basically everything imaginable out in the big wide wonderful world. The last thing we need is to tax our hobby and enjoyment of it. A poor suggestion IMO as people will be put off and they'll be questioning why they have to pay to get on here (especially in this day and age of rising cost of living etc) when other forums offer essentially the same service for free - and word spreads quickly among a social fraternity like this, which will mean IIS will gradually erode while other sites boom.

[Ausrock]

It's not really a "poor suggestion", it's just one of probably a few options to try and limit problems (or more specifically, problem members), however, Mike has very clearly spelt out the Admin's position which should be both admired and respected.........and that should be the end of this discussion.

[pgc hunter]

well the occurrence of said problems has been very rare and there is an existing solution to 'problem members'. Not a justification to slug everyone $10. no need to bold text me mate, just presenting my opinion like everyone else

[Octane]

Agree with you, Sab.

A few handful of shonky people/deals over 7 years is not endemic.

Long live IIS. :D

H

[mill]

Can a admin please please and please again lock this thread :fight:
It is getting tiresome and it is already said that there will be no fees :zzz2:

[Kevnool]

I thought that a few posts back.

Cheers

[Ausrock]

Touchy, touchy...........the bold text was not, I repeat.......was not aimed at you, it was just emphasising (in general) that the subject had been dealt with by Mike and should now be closed.

Hat, coat...........:shrug:

[Kal]

I agree with this 100%, however at the same time I see a viable compromise that may be a possible improvement to the complaints registered in this thread. Have you thought of making the classified forums available to paying registered members only? Not only would any small cost associated (could be as little as $2) dissueade any potential fraudsters from posting, but the fact that you would then have the traceable personal details of any members through their payment would act as a second deterrant.

So keep IIS free, but introduce a small fee to access the classified section to sell. Perfect compromise I say! :)

[PCH]

From that, I'm guessing that only the site owners would have access to the participants' details, - which presumably means that by neccessity, they'd have to become involved in any dispute - especially one involving police action.

Whereas, I thought Mike had already expressed a wish not to be involved in any part of the deals or possible follow up action.

Just a thought :)

[Poita]

I think make the donate button more obvious, I didn't notice it, but am happy to do so.
I don't like fees, I haven't joined astromart because they don't take paypal and twice when I've gone to join I didn't have my cards with me, so I just gave up.
It is difficult when you are first getting into something, and need some help to choose from the hundreds of forums out there, and a fee is a real deterrent, even if low. A reminder about the donation button once you have been a member for a month, and perhaps once a year would be fine by me.
Also I am a member of some virtual pinball sites that let you pay a fee to be a silver or gold member. Doesn't get you much other than access to the downloads section and a note next to your name saying 'paid member', but a hell of a lot of people do end up becoming a paid member because it is cheap to do so.
I'd like something like that.

[Brundah1]

1) Thank you David Hough for moving this post after comments became too personal - that is one function of a Moderator. I was not aware of the posts that went personal before the whole thread was moved!

2) Mike has spoken (again) as Owner - IIS will remain free of fees!
Its time for everyone to move on from that minor suggestion. We should all be thankful for how this website has been set up and funded.

3) I started another thread respectfully addressed to the Owner & Moderators to please explain why the original thread had been moved/ deleted. That later thread has been locked without response from either Owner or Moderator - I can live with that as the original thread has been reinstated.
That said, I have been a moderator on another SIG for 10 years, a brief courtesy reply from David or Mike, would have been how I would have handled this respectful please explain. Yes a Moderator's life is a thankless task - but courtesy cost little and gains much in the way of respect.)

4) Almost every reply to the original post has focused on the suggestions about imposing fees.

Few, if any have responded to suggestions about beefing up the new member joining procedures, that would ensure as best as possible, that real indenities are provided to the Owners / Moderators and that new members fully understand their legal responsibilities; when using Ice Trades. (Maybe old members identities too?)

This in no way suggests that Owners of IIS, should become involved in Ice Trades transaction disputes or fraud, other than to provide known real identity information to police if requested. I would have thought the suggested improvements to the membership application process, would actually improve legal protection for the Owners of IIS. Very few posts on this thread, if any, commented on this suggestion specifically.

Again I invite Mike and the Moderators to revisit the above membership real identity issues and the responsibility of members to provide this information thruthfully.

FYI, today I joined up from my wife's laptop using her gmail address and a false location address in Oakland Florida. I did not read the TOS, merely ticked the box (most software licence acceptance requires you to scan down to the end before you can tick the box). This membership application was processed without problems. Please delete this registration once inspected.

Mike, I did the above to demonstrate the registration process is too sloppy, for a website hosting a facility like Ice Trades.
This is not a personal criticism, or of the Ice Trades process, or TOS; just to highlight an opening for the unscrupulous. I realise the rare occurrence of serious problems on Ice Trades - but with respect weak points once highlighted should be addressed.

5) I thank the Owners and Moderators for the understanding and patience to allow newer members (like me) to make suggestions and allow a constructive discussion to continue on a thread - even when a similar issue may have been discussed before.

6) To members generally, with respect, I am no fan of closed minds and put-downs; some previous posts on this thread contain evidence of this. As David Hough said keep the personal comments (or denegrations) out of the posts.

7) Mike or David, now would be a good time to lock this thread too!

David:thumbsup:

[iceman]

Phil (moderator) replied to the thread later, explaining what had been done.
You may not have seen the reply.

As a general but very grey rule, threads started that ask "why was my thread moved or locked or deleted?" are almost always locked or deleted. It's nothing personal. A simple PM to a moderator is a way to get your answer, instead of starting a new thread in the public forum about it.


I'm just not interested in implementing something like this. Members have their own reasons for wishing to remain anonymous on online forums, and I certainly don't have any intention on forcing "real" identities when people join IceInSpace.
There's other closed, gated communities like that where identities are checked, and I simply don't want any part of it.

Who's going to check their real identities? I don't have the time or inclination or desire to implement such a feature.

Also, it's simply not required. As has already been stated, for the very small number of issues out of the tens of thousands of transactions that have taken place through IceTrade, I don't understand the need to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

Follow the simply, straight forward guidelines whether you're a buyer or a seller, and you'll find out your own real identities with the person you're dealing with anyway.


You're welcome :) Questions and constructive discussions are always welcome.


The discussion is fine. There's a few people covering the same ground as has already been covered, but if people want to have their say that's fine.

If people stop replying to it, it will die it's natural death and drop off the "new posts" list :)

[TrevorW]

Just a footnote

I also have been fairly happy over the years with the site albeit I've had a few complaints re threads/posts being deleted without notification or reason as to why.

I don't think a joining fee is appropriate paying a fee implies that as a member you have certain rights and expectations.

A moderate fee for selling an item on-line, I'd be happy with that

Besides I'm tighter than a fishes xxxx
Clear skies

[andrew2008]

This may have been said but i don't think a fee will fix the problems in the classifieds. Someone planning to scam you out of money is not likely to be put off by the idea of paying a nominal fee to sell you an item of reasonable value that doesn't exist. It may even make it more appealing by giving the illusion of safety to potential buyers.

There is also the possibility it could open Mike and ISS up to legal action if people see the fee as a gaurantee they are safe. Not exactly sure on this but who knows where the courts will place liability in such a case even with a disclaimer.

[Brundah1]

Mike,
Thanks for your reply and explanations.

No intentions for you to have to more work to do on registrations, just suggesting to clearly put the onus on members to provide truthful information and tick a box to that effect.

I will follow your Ice Trades TOS advice - even more closely now.

My comments stand, however you have the final say and the responsibility rests with you!

Cheers,

David :)

[UniPol]

I'm not sure of the logistics of setting up a website, the costs and technical details it entails however I do understand it does come at a cost albeit in time and money to the owner et. al. so I have decided to donate $10 a month starting from today for at least the next twelve months because I can access this site at any time, advertise, post threads/posts and above all share and embrace knowledge acquired over many years of amateur astronomy. Think what you may have spent $10 on in the previous month(s)?

One more thought, think how much it would cost you to advertise your scope and equipment in the local newspaper versus Ice Trades Classifieds especially if your items sell (if at all)?