Another Beginner!

[Gareth]

Hi!
I'm Gareth, and i've just joined your awesome forums. I've been reading them for a few days, and i've just moved to Sydney from New Zealand, so I thought I'd set up camp here.

So I've been meaning to get into Astrophotography for quite some time, and recently convinced my better half to purchase a DSLR. We settled with the Canon 600D (as she uses it for daytime photography of animals).

So, from what I've read, a good starter telescope would be the Orion ED80 for about $400 new. I know I need a tripod for it (and yes, one that can hold its weight as well as the camera x 2) and I dont think i'm quite ready for a tracking system yet, seeing as this will be my first setup.

So I was just wondering what your thoughts were - and what sort of photos I would be getting with this setup? I've already purchased ImagePlus and am awaiting delivery of that software - so I'll have much better control over the camera, and the post processing software looks quite impressive.

Any input would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks
Gareth

[Alchemy]

Greetings ...... Welcome to the money pit of astrophotography.

Without tracking you will be somewhat limited, you can of course shoot the moon.

See if you can hook up with someone, and piggy back your dslr .... We will have you spending your life savings before you now it.
Back to earth, with less humor, imaging does depend on tracking to give you long enough exposures. 30 sec at a short focal length 50 mm or so wide open will give you some results. Alternatively some creative star trails make great images, one done by Garyh for one of the competitions 2 years ago was awesome, one I hope to imitate when the opportunity presents itself.

Any way mingle in and you will learn heaps.

Clive

[niko]

Gareth,

kia ora and haere mai.

I typed a long response which curiously disappered when I tried to post.As a first scope I reckon a dob is the way to go - great for learning the sky. Jumping straight into astrophotography is not for the faint hearted. It's costly and can be frustrating - there's a steep learning curve too.An 8" dob gives you plenty to see, costs are reasonable and they have good resale value.I started with a dob and graduated to photography with a very modest set-up. Almost everything I have I purchased here secondhand.So, if you're unduanted here's my setupED80 on a HEQPro5 mount (secondhand from here for about $1500)Canon 350DQHY5 camera and adapted finerscope for guidingautofocusser (not essential but bloody handy)various cables, widgets and thingosall up I reckon there's $2000 and that's a very modest setup.Clive makes a good suggestion too. Piggybacking your camera on someone else's setup will give you a who;le bunch of photos you'll be really happy with without the big investment just yet. A local astro club would help you out there.

cheers

niko

[Gareth]

Thanks for the fast replies!

I've read up quite a bit and understand enough about AP to realize the money pit it will become. What I was hoping to do was to get myself a good enough starter setup, that I can use for the next few years and learn with. I have the need to constantly learn; and I feel this is a subject where you cannot know it all!

It sounds like tracking will be something I will need then. I'll definitely be starting with just astronomy, however I wanted to do so with a telescope that I could then also attach my DSLR to once I was confident (and competent!) enough.

[niko]

okay, don't say we didn't warn you! :lol:

I'm happy enough with the ED80 - it's been more than enough to learn with. I guess if I knew what I knew now I would have bought an EQ6 rather than the 5 - a bit more future proofing as the aperture fever takes hold!

The ED80 could then be used as a guidescope for a bigger scope in future and the EQ6 would still cope with the weight.

Some might suggest a secret bank account too!

cheers

niko

[Poita]

The scope doesn't really matter, you could piggyback the camera on anything.

The mount is the bit that keeps the camera steady and moves the camera (and telescope) to track the object you are photographing. Without a tracking mount, you can only take pictures of the moon, and 'milky way' pics with a really wide-angle lens with exposures under 30 seconds or so.

Basically the cheapest mount that will work for photography (without giving you more grief than it is worth) is a HEQ5Pro, the recommended one though is the EQ6Pro, and then the step up from that is really the Losmandy G11.
Rough new prices are:
HEQ5Pro $1199
EQ6Pro $1599
G11 $4500 and up to $8000 depending on config.

If you are looking at a 10" scope or larger down the track, then you are looking at the Titan or PME etc. and you are up over $10,000 just for the mount with no end in sight :)

As for a telescope, an ED80 is a great place to start for photographing the larger and brighter DSO's and would be enough to keep you busy for a couple of years. It is also light enough that you won't be taxing the mount once you add the auto guiders, filters, tetrad, extension tubes etc. etc.

I'd strongly recommend getting at least the EQ6, then when aperture fever hits, you don't have to get a larger mount.

So basically, you will need a mount and a scope to get started, an ED80 and the NEQ6Pro would be a great start. Anything less and I reckon you will end up so frustrated as to drive you mad.

[Gareth]

Perfect! That's exactly what I was wanting to find out. Some "I wish I had done this when I started" info - gotta love hindsight :)

I really didn't expect the mount to be the thing that I would need to focus on, really glad I asked here first. Re-reading a few of the guides, it seems like it's an assumed knowledge, so i'll add that to the list of essentials.

So, i'll be starting with the ED80 on an EQ6Pro (i'm all about future proofing) and learning the astronomy ropes. When i'm ready, i'll buy the adapter for the DSLR to attach that to the scope.

So I guess my next question is any recommendations on places to purchase the equipment? I'm guessing it's not the sort of thing you would look for the lowest price online, get it shipped and hope for the best? As mentioned earlier i'm located in Sydney, in the Surry Hills area so central.

Thanks for all the info so far guys, really appreciated.

[Gareth]

One more question, could anyone suggest some amateur astronomy clubs / groups that accept completely beginner members? I would LOVE to meet and learn with others - there's only so much reading can teach you!

[Poita]

Photography is *all* about the mount. Everything else is secondary :)

As for clubs:
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/clublistings.html

They are all very friendly and very helpful, take your pick!

[ZeroID]

Hi Gareth, from a 'stay at home' Kiwi. Welcome to the madhouse.
Check the second hand listings on here first. Hopefully you'll find someone upgrading and looking to move his older gear along. I know the EQ6 is the lowest$\best Value for astro photog ( I've got one ) but a second hand EQ5 or simlar will do quite happily and you will find when you are ready to move up then it will still be a very desirable buy for the next newbie. An EQ6 is also a very heavy beastie btw, I'm building an Observatory at home so I don't have to do the put it up, take it down and all the alignment dance every time I want to use it.
Other than that Bintel in Sydney has the stuff, good guys to deal with, been there, done that. And there are other suppliers in Aus which seem quite good too, certainly more than in NZ.

Can't help you with the Astro Clubs but they all accept complete beginners and they can let you try some scopes, setups before you buy.

The little ED80 is a nice wee scope but not sure how your Sydney skies will let you see much with the small aperture. I have done moon pix with my 10 Dob with a 2" Focusser and the DSLR attached and if you want to learn the skies etc I still reckon a biggish (8"-10") Dob is the way to go for any beginner. Least that way you get to see some good stuff to whet your appetite and it will cut through the LP.

Ok, enough. Hang round, ask questions, get Stellarium (free btw) and start learning the ropes, it's along haul but fun all the way.

[erick]

OK, try these two places:-

http://www.bintel.com.au/ Their Sydney shop is at:- 84 Wentworth Park Road, Glebe

http://www.andrewscom.com.au/ Their Sydney shop is at:- Shop 8, 41-51 Bathurst Street, Greystanes

[Gareth]

Great, thank you!

[Alchemy]

That's about the perfect place to start. It is all about the mount thats the bit that does all the work,

Ie. Great mount and average scope = great photos
Great mount and great scope = awesome photos
Poor mount and worlds best scope = poor photos.

You can pick up second hand if ( and here's the challenging bit) you know what you're looking at.

Definitely get in touch with someone who can show you the ropes, be it a club or more personal, the club will give you more ideas ( we all have our favorite setups) find out how serious you want to be then go out grab that eq6 and ed80.

[Gareth]

Thanks mate, missed your reply earlier :)

I've actually already been contacted about some second hand gear, so hopefully I'll strike a deal there.

One thing that I noticed moving to Sydney was the skies are....bare! I knew light pollution was worse here but seriously, this bad? Back in Auckland, out in Titirangi I could see the Milky Way clouds and watch the odd rare object burn up in the atmosphere. I look up here, and all I see is the moon, and about four stars. Ugh!

[rcheshire]

Gareth. You may need to invest in a light pollution filter, although you can get by without one. Exposure time is an important factor dealing with sky gradients and optimizing signal to noise ratio (SNR).

Once you have the hardware, or while you're waiting the reading below is a good start getting to grips with the nuts and bolts of AP.

http://www.ayton.id.au/gary/Science/Astronomy/Ast_Photography_DSO.htm

This is a basic guide
http://www.pbase.com/samirkharusi/beginners

Really good for understanding sub exposures
http://www.samirkharusi.net/sub-exposures.html

Jerry sells a couple of CD's - personally I think the advanced guide is the one to get. Lots of great info.
http://www.astropix.com/

[Gareth]

Great, thanks! I'm still in the reading stage right now, so those are really helpful. I haven't read about light pollution filters at all, will have a look into them. The concept isn't new to me but I really didn't know what I had when I was back in NZ - such good quality skies even in the city compared.

What sort of price do the LP filters go for? Are there any downsides to them?

[rcheshire]

The downside of light pollution filters is ~doubling exposure time. Not a problem with guiding. Optimizing sub exposure time / ISO for the sky condition to get the best SNR is important. An Astronomik CLS-CCD is >200AUD. Hutech is a filter of choice too - not sure of the price.

[Gareth]

Oh, excellent, that's good. I'm going to be using a tracking system for sure.

So after some research the EQ6Pro is ... quite large! I was hoping for something that would at least be portible enough to get onto oversize baggage on flights, as my favourite star gazing spot is from my batch out in the Coromandal in New Zealand.

So, quality wise, how does the "EQ5PRO SynScan Go-To equatorial mount and tripod" stack up compared? It looks like it would still hold the weight of a ED80 scope and my camera, but be lighter and compact-able enough to transport more easily.

[ZeroID]

Flight Baggage ?, .. an EQ6 ? :eyepop: You more likely need your own cargo plane for that one. Even an EQ5 is a pretty big animal.

Titirangi eh, good skies up there for sure when you get in the western lee of the hills away from the CBD glow. I have a spot earmarked up there I want to try. Rolf is up there taking awesome pix.

A long term suggestion which might take a bit of arranging. What ever mount you buy build a pier at your Coromandel bach out on the lawn or somewhere and just carry back the head of the mount, forget the tripod. One less bulky thing to pay freight on anyway.

[Poita]

EQ5 is still too big for travelling, and too much hassle. Even an ED80 is a sizeable beastie.
If you want an air-travel compatible scope, then get a lightweight fluid head tripod (video tripod) and a small scope, or invest in some great binoculars and a monopod, or maybe a little 60mm scope or a second hand little SCT like those baby 4" Meades or Celestrons that have goto built in.

You would be better off with a grab n go travel scope, and something more serious for at home or when car-travelling.

Better still, get a cheap 2nd hand dob and leave it at your batch, and let your friends use it while you are away.

Otherwise, consider a 127 MAK on a goto as a transportable scope. Like the Maksutov-Cassegrain MAK127AZ-GT from andrews, $799 for scope and mount with GOTO, hand controller and can be driven from a laptop etc. Not a bad travel option.

[Gem]

Nothing wrong with the eq5pro with the ED80, but if you want to keep your options open for later then the eq6pro is a much better option. I concur with the advice given so far... the mount is everything. Also, if you have work well within the mount's capacity, your imaging will be more stable and easier. If you want to travel alot, consider weight...

[Gareth]

Thanks for all the help so far guys, this is why i'm here :D

Brent, you have a really good idea there with transporting the head only. As it is, I was going to run two sets of counter weights haha.

I think i'll just start with an ED 80 (Looking at the CF LP one) and the EQ5Pro, leaving the big boy here in Sydney.

In the mean time, I've got some serious reading to do!

[rcheshire]

Gareth. There are other options for transportable mounts, such as the Astrotrac. But seriously, buy the best mount that you can afford. There are other manufacturers. Not that I endorse any particular brand.

[Poita]

I'd honestly give the EQ5 a miss and go for something more substantial like the EQ6, G11, Ioptron 45 etc. The mount is the one thing you will outgrow the fastest, and the better the mount, the less the frustration. I find the EQ6 not quite substantial enough, and wish I had the cash for something more solid.