Welcome to Energy Saving Light Bulbs

[blindman]

Hi All,
found some VERY interesting things about "saving" bulbs

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_energy47.htm

They are maybe saving some energy, but they not save US !
See for yourself and believe - or not believe - up to you.
Cheers Neven

[erick]

I just wish they would work as a light bulb should! I had to replace a bedroom ceiling incandescent light with a compact fluoro - one of these large round bulbs. I bought another one to check the first wasn't faulty. It takes the best part of five minutes to come to full brightness and is decidedly very dim for the first couple of minutes. What use is a bedroom light bulb if you have to turn it on five minutes before you need to use it???? :mad2:

[bobson]

No need to panic Neven, since you are blindman :)

[pgc hunter]

Yeah I've noticed that too. Have one in my bedroom and in the kitchen and the moment you flick them on, the bloody things are as feeble as the sunlight on Pluto! They need to "warm up" apparently.

[The_bluester]

Hopefully in another year or two there will be truly "Drop in" LED replacements for incandescent lights. Our place is badly in need of a lighting refresh and LED is teetering on the edge of viable for me. The existing lighting design seems to have been the "One here, one here and maybe one more over there" approach so you are forever in your own shadow when you are trying to do anything.

[cometcatcher]

I don't like CFL's. I do like LED strips. I've lined the ceiling with 5 metre LED strips. They are 12V and run off either an AC adapter or in my case from a battery bank charged by solar panels. Instant on and very even lightning with minimal shadows. Works during blackouts too. :D

[bartman]

LED's are they way to go!!!!
Bartman

[Barrykgerdes]

I still prefer the old incandescent globes (the ones that you can't seem to buy any more). As far as those "long life" flouros go I have yet to have one last more than a year.

As far as the economics go I have no problem with the extra power required. At the moment I have a negative power bill from the solar cells.

Yes and those flouros are certainly not environmentally friendly.

The jury is out on the led's. I haven't used one enough to form an opinion. They look OK but I haven't examined their spectral output yet.

Barry

[erick]

A very interesting idea. Hmmm - a world without shadows?

[Ric]

Hi Eric, we have the flouro bulbs throughout our place and find the same thing happens as well to some of them while others just come on straight away without warming up.

Twilight zone stuff for sure. :D

[bojan]

Yep, those fluoro bulbs are sometimes dimmer before they warm up properly (but not always - I have two, bought on the same day and one of them comes up almost instantly the other one needs a minute or two to really start doing it's job).
However, the efficiency (output light power versus used power) is higher than traditional bulbs (the exception may be halogen bulbs, they are good, very efficient, not so cheap ($3 or so) and dimmable as well).

However, the environmental issues with fluoro bulbs are really problematic: each one of them has a lots of electronics - rectifier, high voltage inverter... transistors and diodes, capacitors, ferrite transformer.. mercury and florescent material inside the tube (which is cancerogen and just plainly poisonous) I can't see how they can be more environmentally friendly, compared to just a small piece of wolfram wire.

The same goes for LED's, however the amount of material is significantly smaller, but more plastic is used (that comes from petrochemical industry).

[midnight]

This is a core problem with CFLs. The amount of energy required to manufacture 1 and also the use of mercury is a concern if the tube breaks.

Whilst CFLs are definitely more efficient, their reliability is very questionable in an application requiring high switching duty (ie most rooms when our power companies are telling us to turn off lights when not in use). The more you increase the quantity of components, the higher the statistical probability of failure of a single component and most likely resulting in complete failure of the device - ie throw away society. LED technology is the real future when it's price becomes competitive.

In summary, more efficient & less heat in your light fitting, reliabiliy is very questionable (for the price you pay), large energy input to manufacture, much higher % by weight of heavy elements such as Mercury. Are we really better off??

Darrin...

[erick]

I switch the bedroom light on as it gets dark, then leave it on until we go to bed, regardless of where we are! So much for saving electricity. Too annoying to go to the room looking for something and have to wait a few minutes for it to warm up so you can see.

[bojan]

My experience is not THAT bad..:shrug:

[dugnsuz]

Ditto that Erick - I have to use my (astro) head mounted LED torch to make a cup of coffee in our kitchen as the lights warm up:lol:

[CraigS]

Many LED lights currently available, can contain up to eight times the amount of lead considered 'safe' under some present legislations. The high intensity ones contain more than the low intensity ones.

They also contain high levels of Nickel and arsenic which can cause cancer. (Ref: January 2011 issue of Environmental Science & Technology).

The problem I find with the flouro ones, is that the down-rating factors they apply to them, seem to result in way lower amounts of light than the equivalent incandescent ones. The end result being, that I end up buying the higher power rating globes to compensate, which somewhat defeats the purpose of reducing energy consumption overall.

I was happy with turning off incandescent lights when they weren't being used. This reduces power consumption way more than changes in technology.

Cheers

[renormalised]

Precisely Craig....just turn the damn things off. Saves all the energy you could ever want.

Technological change and improvements can and will help, but ultimately it's people's habits and culture that needs changing.

[erick]

I'm about to leave that property. But next opportunity I'll buy a third one (they cost something like $12!) and see how it behaves.

[erick]

It shows that we no longer have valve radios and TVs :D And I didn't think I was part of the "instant" generation :P

[CraigS]

I find the Halogen globes don't last anywhere near a long as either flouro or incandescent.

Anyone else notice this, or is it just me ?

Cheers

[tlgerdes]

A bit of an over exaggeration. 3x24w (72watts) CFLs for equivalent light of 3x100w (300watts) incandecent bulbs.

I wouldnt want to use less than an 18w CFL. Though I do have a 13w CFL in the toilet which is great for the midnight visit, doesnt blind you out of existance when you first turn it on.

CFLs work best for populated areas like loungerooms, kitchens etc. ,turn them on leave them on.
Halogens work best for bedrooms, bathroom, closets etc turn them on for 5min then off again.

[cometcatcher]

LED's have a narrow bandwidth. They are not full spectrum like incan lights but then neither are CFL's. It's still possible to get them at different colour temperatures. My personal preference is for warm white 2700K. At that colour temperature they look very much like incandescent. At least it fools my eyes. With SMD LED strips you need 10 metres to equal a 1.2m 36 watt room fluro.

I also have a PWM dimmer on mine. Unfortunately the PWM circuitry emits an audible high frequency squeal at some settings which can be annoying so I've put in a switchable resistor to use instead.

I have a 12V 2700K CFL as well. Don't like it that much. Takes a bit to start and casts shadows. After using looooong LED strips I like the lack of shadows. :)

[DavidU]

Just look for the RoHS compliant type.....no problem.

[mill]

I am using 1Watt 240 led bulbs and they work good :thumbsup:
They are for sale in Bunnings and maybe some other shops.

[CraigS]

Yep - fair enough.
I wrote 'flouro' ('twas incorrect … I was thinking of halogens when I wrote it .. don't know why I slipped in the 'flouro' word …)

What I meant was that where before I used a 60W incandescent, rather than replacing it with a 42W halogen (the recommended option), I generally opt for a 53W halogen … which, whilst still resulting in 12% energy saving, the cost of it offsets the benefit (from my individual perspective). The (apparent?) higher failure rate of the halogens then pushes the long-term costs beyond any benefit for me, (over incandescent).

Flouros result in an 80% difference, which provides much more margin to compensate. They also last way longer than halogens. Mind you, I'm not too happy about the disposal procedures of CFLs, and having lots of these around my house, doesn't give me a comfortable feeling.

Cheers

[Barrykgerdes]

A little digression on the life of incandescents:-
Back in the 40's (1940's I mean) the county council changed the street lamp globes every couple of years. As younger lads we used to follow the truck and ask for the old globes which were usually given. We still had some in 1970 that had been in operation for over 20 years.
They don't last that long now!

Barry

[erick]

A further digression:- I remember a visit to Jenolan Caves many years ago. The guide pointed to an incandescent bulb that had been in operation since electric light had first been installed in the caves.

Just found a more recent report:-

Chifley Cave
History lives in the Chifley Cave. It is believed to be the first cave anywhere in the world to be lit by electric light, back in 1881. Visitors get to see an example of one of the old light bulbs still in use......

[tlgerdes]

Funny thing about the life of CFLs, I have a 4 left running out of box of 6 that Origin Energy were giving away for free about 5 years ago. 3 out 6 that I bought last year have died already.

Mass production also means mass failure.:question:

[blindman]

Although I cannot understand how can you stand "disgusting" light from these new "savers", just want to say that we almost DO NOT HAVE CHOICE choosing what lighting you want to have in your home.
Anybody bought a stock of normal non-toxic bulbs ??
Cheers all, Neven

[cometcatcher]

My brother in law did! He has a huge stockpile as he can't stand the "energy savers" either.

[bojan]

Not necessary... low MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure) is depending on the reliability of the components in the system - more components, lower that time will be.
CFL's is relatively complicated to manufacture so it needs greater care in sourcing high quality components and better controlled production process, compared to just couple of operations needed for traditional bulb.

Problem is not in mass production per se, it is greed, as usual.. cost cutting where ever possible, cheap untrained labour used, cheap components from who knows where.... And no adequate quality regulation.

[tlgerdes]

Why didnt you just say, industry in economically developing countries :lol:

[scopemankit]

I tried making a lamp for my observatory consisting of an 11 watt halogen light and a red Perspex cover,which could fold down, giving me a red or white option. The problem was the heat given off by the lamp, it started to melt the perspex.

At a fair increase, pricewise, I replaced the halogen with a 1 watt LED which had the same fitting. What a change, bright light and cool, and, only 1 watt. That is the way to go!

[bojan]

No.. actually it is industry in developed countries. It is they who go to developing countries as a part of cost cutting exercise.

[MrB]

I remember seeing a story about a firestation that has the worlds longest lasting lightbulb.
I think it has a bamboo filament and has never been turned off.
From memory there is a live webcam on it! LOL

Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest-lasting_light_bulbs

[ngcles]

Hi All,

Another problem no one thought of is that they put out a good-deal more U.V light than the old incandescent bulbs. Not a problem for most people unless you have Lupus (like my wife). We can't use them because the Lupus association has done a lot of research that shows that these bulbs contribute significantly to triggering Lupus flares because of the excess U.V.

We have about 25 down-lights at our house -- all 240v. So before the old bulbs became unlawful to sell, I went out and bought a huge stock of incandescent bulbs -- about 70-odd. Problem is that with these last run bulbs (Mirabella), almost half appear to be complete duds or only last 30-40 hrs at most -- I have a feeling they were just getting rid of their seconds. Now down to our last 17 bulbs and the remaining stock is dwindling fast.

Anyone got any bright-ideas to replace them? They are all Edison-screw 240v 60W. At this stage it looks like I'm going to be shelling out a couple of thousand dollars getting the fixtures re-wired for low-voltage down-lights and having the plaster repaired when the old-ones give out.

Candles??


Best,

Les D

[blindman]

Good point Les,
I just bought some more downlights. Now I think I've got stock around 1000
UV protected downlights :-)
Cheers Neven

[Merlin66]

ngcles,
I'm surprised with the comment about excessive UV from energy saving lamps.
I use them all the time to calibrate spectroscopes and haven't seen any which give a strong UV emission. The Hg line in the blue is strong but not UV?? (see attached spectrum)
Do you have a reference source??

[CraigS]

Perhaps this issue may have come originally from the EU Scientific Committee on Emerging and Newly Identified Health Risks (SCENIHR) Report on Light Sensitivity in 2008. (http://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_risk/committees/04_scenihr/docs/scenihr_o_019.pdf)

The Abstract reads:


Flourescent lamps usually produce a spectrum with two UVC emission lines (253.7 nm and 185 nm) caused by inelastic scattering/impact ionisation emissions in the mercury plasma. (The rest of the emissions from a bulb are determined by the phosphor coating and the glass envelope. There's probably a reasonable variance amongst different types/brands, because of the variations in the materials used ??).
From the same source:


Mind you, the Moseley & Ferguson source they quote above, is listed as 'Personal Communication' and is very difficult to find on the web.

Cheers