Osama Bin Laden dead

[DavidU]

There are reports that the US has the body of Osama Bin Laden.
Anyone have any news?
Mods please remove if my post is inappropriate.

[tlgerdes]

On NineMSN, supposed killed in a targeted attack against a mansion outside Islamabad in Pakistan. Obama holding press conference soon.

[Omaroo]

Front page: http://www.news.com.au/world/osama-bin-laden-dead-us-has-the-body/story-fn8ljm6z-1226048335673

[spacezebra]

US President - has just made a statement to confirm.

Cheers Petra d.

[wavelandscott]

You can edit the question mark...He is dead.

[Omaroo]

GOLLY - Wikipedia is already updated and talking about him in the past tense. MacMazing.

[AstralTraveller]

'Es not dead, E's restin .... pining for the fiords.

[jenchris]

He was found by a Martyr Hari.
I hope he took his best mates with him.
I guess Gaddafi will join him and his children sooner than later.

Great start to the Season of War in Afghanistan.:thumbsup:

[ballaratdragons]

Good Riddance to a piece of rubbish.

But now the trouble will really start!
His followers will not let his death rest. :mad2:

I noticed a comment by someone (probably of Arab appearance) in the 'live' twitter feed: "Osama is dead. Does that mean that people will start being nice to me again at the Airport?"

[asimov]

Rest in pieces next to your mate, Hussein.

[that_guy]

this whole thing is gonna drive conspiracy theorists mad!!! :eek:

[leon]

He was a pretty bad fellow, but now what will happen in revenge, i hate to think.

Leon

[TrevorW]

is he dead or living with Elvis

was he just a scapegoat

"Osama, Hussien,WOMD, terrorist's or not who is really to blame???"

It's been so long I honestly thought they'd forgotten or he was already dead.

[ballaratdragons]

One day after the Anniversary of Hitlers death.

Must be 'Bad Guy Death' time of year.

[koputai]

I'm sorry, but no one, including our Prime Minister, has the right to "welcome the death of Osama Bin Laden" on my behalf.

This killing will do nothing but harm to the prospect of peace in the World.

Jason.

[Jeffkop]

We'll worry about that when the time comes Leon, couldnt be any worse than when he was alive could it.
I watched a doco the other day that said Alkaida was actually starting to suffer numbers because of pressure the real muslims have been copping. Seems they are sick of being tarred with that brush.

The world moves on.

[KenGee]

Yes Jason, we could have had a meeting with him instead and talked about our feelings.

[koputai]

I just find celebrating death disturbing. I'm not sorry he's dead, but I don't know how anyone can celebrate such a thing.

Just pop him off and move on.

[jjjnettie]

A lot of people will have closure now.

[[1ponders]]

:thumbsup: Jason. It is a sad day when we celebrate the death of someone. No matter who they were or how bad they were. Life should be celebrated, not violent death. And we will continue to have violent death in this manner as long as it is celebrated. Making a martyr if you will, regardless of the "side".

Let him rest in peace. He did some terrible things and we all wish they didn't happen, but he is gone and hopefully (wishful) his philosophies will die with him.

[Bassnut]

He deserved it, he attacked the US, but so long as the US continuoues bombing the crap out of those that dont agree with the American dream, there will be plenty more to replace him.

[casstony]

It's good that he's gone but some thought should go into how these monsters are created. Some powerful people kill many more innocents with the stroke of a pen.

[White Rabbit]

Well, it was never going to happen any other way. If they found him, there is no way they were letting him walk out of the room alive. Can you imagine the media circus that would ensue with an Bin Laden trial? If would have given him a platform beyond his wildest dreams and he would have called to arms thousands, not to say that his death wont but the ramifications of the him standing trial are even more scary.

It's a funny thing indeed to be glad that someone has died, it's an unnatural thought I think. Regardless of the crimes he comited "glad or happy" feel somewhat hollow. Then again those who live by the sword...

[Draconis]

Reports that he has been buried at sea so quickly (i understand the cultural requirements) will certainly add to the conspiracy theories. Its not hard to see how people might think it is not beyond the realms of possibility he was not actually killed but captured and has been whisked to a prison in the US never to be seen again..it's already started looking at Twitter and will just get bigger and bigger. I wonder if they will release some images of the body or some other evidence of Bin Laden's death to nip the conspiracy rumours in the bud?

[tlgerdes]

He's not dead, he is working at the independant service station near the mosque in Lakemba. Saw him there last night, honest.:lol:

[Brian W]

My wife is currently in a low intensity war zone in the southern Philippines where she is teaching Peace and Development. I sincerely hope this does not notch up the danger.
Brian

[strongmanmike]

I agree with you Paul, I am mostly a Gillard supporter but I didn't like those words at all either, coupled with the pathetic displays of perocial jubilation in the US that are plastering our TV's now, I couldn't help but think it shows us (especially those in the US) as really no better than the terrorists really after all how many US and other troups have been killed, maimed and injured to "acheieve" this litle bit of so called success, does it really warrant such an overt level of jubilation? :sadeyes:

Mike

[Kevnool]

Bout time----Better late than never.
Need to see a pic tho to prove to myself that this has happened

[danielsun]

Ch9 news tonight actually showed a photo of his dead body.

[DavidU]

I haven't seen that one.

[Kevnool]

Let me say this then.

The stars have truely aligned.

[Benno18]

At least Obama didnt put himself on an aircraft carrier with a big 'VICTORY' sign behind him.
lesson learned with that one.

[Waxing_Gibbous]

Too true.
Successive US governments have a long history of supporting unpleasant regimes that cater to "American Interests". Its manifest hypocrisy in back-stopping governments that trample the human rights it so publically reveres, (El Salvador, Israel, Indonesia, etc. etc.) and their refusal to even acknowledge their mistakes, has led to hundreds of thousands of potential "terrorists" who see no other way to emancipation.

As someone who had to put up the IRA for 22 years, I have no sympathy for those who perform these acts, but equally I can empathise with the circumstances that lead them down that path.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not sorry bin Laden is dead. I just don't think that celebrating the fact is either politically productive or seemly.

[ballaratdragons]

That is NOT a real photo of Osama bin Laden.
It is a Photoshopped image that did the rounds on the internet about 2 years ago.

The US Naval Office, CNN and FoxNews have already announced this to everyone to prevent confusion, and they showed the fake one (the one on channel nine).
Yet 1 hour after the announcement, Channel Nine still showed the fake image.
The Old fake image can be found in several old Osama conspiracy websites.

US Navy spokesperson said the Navy did take many photographs and when the public hysteria settles down they will allow one to be shown to the public.

I congratulate Barrack Obama for the way he presented the news to the world.
He did not brag, he wasn't smug about it. He just stated the fact that Osama bin Laden is Dead. Then went on to say how he was killed.
But he didn't do a 'Bush' and glorify how good he is that Osama was killed on 'his watch'.

I also hope this puts an end to the harrassment of other Muslims and Arab people.
Time will tell.

[Brian W]

Harassment of Muslims end, probably not. Travel in the Philippines is difficult and usually overcrowded.

When my wife travels and she gets an urge to be alone she simply dons a Muslim head scarf. No one sits at her table in an eatery, and rarely will anyone sit beside her on a bus or a boat.

Of course this doesn't work in Muslim areas but it sure is affective in the Christian areas.
Brian

[ballaratdragons]

It is interesting listening to the account of how they found Osama.

US Intelligence was given tip-offs by Pakistani Government as to the general area,
then they just used common sense from then on.

The obvious give-aways:
- The compound is a multi-million dollar 3 storey Mansion owned by 2 unemployed men suspected to be connected to Al-Quaida
- It is the only house in the area with no telephone or internet connected (Osama refused to have either connected at any location he would be at)
- It is the only building in the area with 2 defensive walls built around it. An outer wall and an inner wall. Just like a Prison.

Individually, suspect.
Add all 3 together and it was obvious.

[Jeffkop]

Yep ... 100% right ... dead people dont have near as many rites as live ones ... it was never a dead OR alive situation but rather dead or vapourized.

[JohnH]

I am sorry you feel that way because that is exactly what the PM is entitled to do - represent Australia.

You can, of course, express opinions here that are counter to hers without fear of reprisals, unless you count this comment benefitting as you do from the protection aforded you by living in a democratic nation.

As for peace in the world not being advanced by this monsters death are you seriously suggesting it would be better if he continued to live and spout poison into the ears of the poor, ignorant and children and use them to bring death to the innocent?

Really!

[casstony]

While I'm against capital punishment in general I think it's ok to suspend the inner debate while returning mass murderers to the soil; such people are too dangerous to be allowed to live.

[strongmanmike]

Of course it does, self proclaimed Christians often demonstrate their understanding of their saviors teachings in such ways..I can just see it now, sermon on the mount and Jesus burning a copy of the Koran :rolleyes:

[Hagar]

I can't say I am sorry to see his demise but fear the repurcussions which will undoubtably follow. Removing one bad apple doesn't kill the tree. Just another apple on the tree to rot and remove.
God help us all.

[Brian W]

B.L. was a nasty person who knew how to reach into the worst of a person and create a lethal weapon. That he was killed is neither good not bad it simply is what was going to happen to him when he entered upon the path he walked.

The good or the bad will be what follows. Do the situations that created him remain the same. Will the next leader incite more horrors or incite peace? Will the camps that fester the cannon fodder continue to exist?

Brian

[jenchris]

If you cut the head off a snake, it thrashes about for a while but it does die.
I hope this is indeed a snake and not a chicken - cut the head off the chicken and it could, if fed, live indefinitely but be incredibly random in its actions.

Osama was a champagne socialist, silver spoon in his mouth, hence being found in a mansion and not a cave.

The fact he was living the high life and sending his serfs off to die may in fact be a trigger for dissatisfaction from the proles in his keep.

The fact he was basically imprisoned anyway is quite a good thought. Especially as he wouldn't watch TV or internet. More fool him.

[multiweb]

The man was trash. Good riddance. He won't be missed by many. I have no problem with people who have lost loved ones dancing in the streets. Good on them. At least some closure for many. You guys forget that he and his followers have no regard for life or people and will use any mean to push their agenda.

[Lee]

"cut the head off the chicken and it could, if fed, live indefinitely but be incredibly random in its actions"

What? Are you saying after you cut off a chickens head that it starves to death? My physiology training thinks not.....

[Brian W]

Marc you lower yourself to his level. Those are the same arguments, directed at another group that he and others like him use.

The only way to stop the cycle is to find a way to answer intolerance with tolerance, hate with love violence with peace.

brian

[multiweb]

Don't get personal or don't post. Everybody's entitled to his own opinions.


Well go and preach to all the people who lost relatives in the twin towers while he was gloating on youtube about it? And you wonder why people are dancing in the streets?

[leon]

They may have shot this fellow, but have achieved nothing in the effort to bring peace to the world. :sadeyes:

Nothing will change, and revenge dose not work on either side. :sadeyes:

I would hate to think what this world will be like in 20 years time, with a bit of luck i may be six foot under, at peace.:)

It is my kids and grand kids that will have to maintain peace, if that is possible. :sadeyes:

Leon :sadeyes:

[Brian W]

Marc, I didn't say you were not entitled to your opinion. I simply said that I disagreed with it and pointed out a possible consequence.

And Mark as you say we all haver a right to our own opinion.

But perhaps we all need to consider the words of a world renowned peace maker 'an eye for an eye eventually leads to a world of the blind'... or words to that effect.
Brian

[Brian W]

Leon, you may be right. However the 'may' will turn into 'absolutely' if you and others like you give up. Keep on keeping on.

Brian

[multiweb]

No necessarily. You weed out the scum and the world is a better place. One at a time and that was one step in the right direction.

[Brian W]

Mark we are in agreement... absolutely. This was a man who needed to be stopped. And others who would incite death and destruction also need to be stopped.

We only disagree on the means and the attitude. And while I do not agree with using violence to stop violence the Seals certainly did it right.

Brian

[Barrykgerdes]

So another thorn in the side of the US has been removed. I can't see it changing the the situation much
The last thorn they removed in Iraq doesn't seem to have solved any problems.
As far as I know the "bad guys" do not have real munitions factories. They buy their weaponry. I wonder who sells it to them.

Barry

[asimov]

The day he & his followers decided on killing innocent people to get (mainly) under the skin of the US & get our attention, was the day it ceased to be 'An American thing' - The thorn has been removed from the world as a whole, in my mind. The alternative was let him live out his days in control of al-Qaeda. Naturally it was arranged long ago for someone else to take his place in the event of his death.

[AstralTraveller]

To continue the gardening analogy; weeding out scum may make the garden look better for a while but unless you get to the cause of the scum it will soon be back. The scum is fed by the large amount of 'fertilizer' spread about in the world. Unless we recognise and work to correct the root problems we will just get new scum springing up all over the place.

IMHO more harm has been done to Al Queda in the past few months by the brave people of Tunisia, Egypt, Lybia, Yemen, Syria etc than this strike could ever hope to achieve. They aren't fighting and dying for bin Laden's vision of the world. They are announcing the arrival of the Arab workers as a force on the world stage. I don't know what will happen, except that there will be more turmoil, but what I see going on now is great, terrible, scary and inspiring all at the same time.

[Exfso]

Good riddance to this piece of work I reckon. The jokes have started already, here is one I had sent to me today.

[taminga16]

Is'nt this the very philosiphy of al Qaeda and the Taliban?

Greg.

[Lee]

Hopefully the CIA are monitoring communications even more fervently than before, and have a few more strike teams ready to take out the next guy who puts up his hand to replace Osama.

[jjjnettie]

‎"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that"
— Martin Luther King Jr.

[multiweb]

!? :nerd:

[strongmanmike]

Ah Heaven is full of hateful Christians...perfectly logical to me, we are on the right path :thumbsup:

[supernova1965]

:bowdown: GO JJJ good quote:thumbsup:

[Omaroo]

I had personal friends and business acquaintances die in Tower 2 that day. Please don't tell me to love my enemy and the world will be a better place for it.

Good riddance to filth.

Next?

[Brian W]

Pretty much.

The '------' insert the group you dislike, are infidels and need to be killed so the world will be better and there will be no more killing.

Brian

[Brian W]

Fair enough Chris.

Brian

[asimov]

'We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.' — Osama bin Laden, November 2001

[supernova1965]

This won't work it is just another curve in the vicious circle of violence. If you want to stop violence by killing you have to kill every single one who will be effected by their deaths or you just make more enemies:shrug:. I am not defending Osama bin Laden I think that he is evil but as I said above if we kill everyone who will be upset by his death we become as bad also.

[Barrykgerdes]

He will now be in heaven with all those virgins he has been talking about. That's what he told his followers to encourage them to die for him.

Baz

[leon]

Your on the money JJJ, no one has the right to take another life, but some assume the power to do so.

Leon

[jjjnettie]

I'm not trying to invalidate your feelings Chris.
Never.
A lot of people will be able to find closure now.

[iceman]

This thread is starting to get a bit personal and clearly some emotions and feelings are starting to get a bit stretched.

It's obviously a very personal issue for some.

I've left the thread open because it's a current news topic that IIS members will want to talk about, but if it keeps going on its current path it will no doubt be locked very soon.

Please think before you post, don't just re-post or repeat the same things that you've already said, and please take a deep breath and make sure you're not getting personal before pressing submit.

[Satchmo]

I don't find any satisfaction at this news of another handful of violent deaths -its just as abhorrent to me as those of the 3000 that dies on 9/11 and the 100,000 innocent Iraqi civilians that died in the aftermath of the US led Iraq invasion. Its all a sad chapter in human history.

[tornado33]

A related issue. Its coming out that Pakistan may possibly kave know Bin laden was where he was, in which case why did they not tell the US? Did they knowingly harbour one of the greatest terrorists of modern times.

We all know the US has not come out of the last few decades clean. happenings at Guintamano bay, the Extrordinary renditions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition_by_the_Unit ed_States) where what the US stood for went ignored, but one thing remains absolute. Without the US, Hitler would have become master of Europe and Russia, and Australia would have easily fallen to Japan, placing the entire human race under un elected dicatorship.

They say the US even launched extra spy satellites specifically to hunt for Bin laden. They even built a life size replica of the Bin laden compound in the US for the crack teams to practise and practise on. Terrorists should now know how determined the US is, to stop at nothing to hunt down those who would kill Americans especially on American soil

On subject of Astronomy, did you know that at one stage Afghanistan the war torn place we see on TV for all the wrong reasons, once had the most modern observatory on earth (http://www.spacetoday.org/DeepSpace/Telescopes/Observatories/Afghanistan/AfghanAstronomerPrince.html)


What angers me about Bin laden and the so called clerics who ruled as the Taliban before the US overthew it was what the Omir said was inscribed in the great observatory The Taliban closed schools and forbade women from education.
It is so sad that there are war torn countries that harbour terror, that were in the past right at the forefront of human knowledge

[Brian W]

Granted that America was the engine that produced the material that was so desperately needed.

You might want however to consider the role Britain and the Commonwealth played as well as the Russians.



Indeed they did.



Absolutely correct, but that arrow flies as well to the west as to the east.
Brian

[bojan]

That is not quite correct...
Everyone contributed to the victory over Germany during WWII, so you can't tell US was a key factor (...they joined the battle against Hitler at the end actually... they were busy with Japan in the meantime) It was USSR who actually bled Naci forces at Stalingrad and elsewhere and helped setting the stage for this victory, and in the process it was hit with the highest number of killed in that war... there were tens of millions of people killed on its territory before Germans were pushed out.

[asimov]

T'was a team effort, yes.

[Brian W]

For how much of a team effort and who made up the team when, you might want to read both Churchill's five volume account of WW2 and John Erickson's 'The Road to Berlin'.

Bojan is however correct in his assertions... no country suffered more casualties from the Germans, nor inflicted more casualties on them, than Russia.

Brian

[koputai]

I hear the word 'closure' all over the place, but I think what they actually mean is 'revenge'.

Closure would mean that after this, there is no more on the subject.

Cheers,
Jason.

[AstralTraveller]

I noticed how the news about the beatification of JP2 arrived just after the royal wedding and the skeptic in me wondered whether the timing was deliberate, so as to take the wind out of the Protestant sails. An old fight I know but ....

Anyway, I'm wondering who is taking about the royal wedding now. Talk about upstaging!

Seriously though, the US knew where he was for ages. They built replicas of the buildings to practice on. I wonder how the time of the operation was decided. Was 'forces ready, weather fine' enough?

[dugnsuz]

Alive and well, living just outside Glasgow.
Footage of him down the chippy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQvtijBoAfo

[blindman]

So, you REALLY believe in all those articles in media???
OMG !
Clear skies !

[Terry B]

I'm not going to bother reading all of this thread but just want to bring to attention that I have received a dodgy link on facebook that was probably sent by a bot to "Osama Bin Laden execution video"
Just be warned I suppose.

[mr bruess]

has osama gone to heaven or hell? :confused2::confused2::confused2:

[Brian W]

That is absolutely unknowable. Perhaps a better way to phrase such a question would be

are there any religions which promote a heaven and hell that would place him in heaven

Brian

[Bassnut]

Very many. Resistance to an overwhelming corrupt external influence makes him a martre, no dought.

[tlgerdes]

They'll have to change the lyrics now from "Osama got run over by a reindeer" to "Osama got run over by a seal team" :lol:

[KenNo2658]

Dunno! It probably depends on whether he is right or all the people opposed to him are right.

All I know is that it seems like almost every conflict our society has experienced recently has been caused by some belief system trying to impose its belief's upon other cultures. For crying out loud, we have even had supposedly Christian followers killing each other in the name of their religion!!

Why?!??!! If you are right, eventually everyone will come to agree with you, or at the very least, you will be able to stand back and say "I told you so!" as you watch them all marched into hell.

But no! Being right is not enough! Our people all seem to need everyone else to conform to their belief's to be acceptable in society. What a poor statement of the human race this is!

If you are being repressed and downtrodden, fair enough! Fight for the form of freedom you want, but don't try to force everyone else to believe as you do! And do NOT kill innocents to achieve your aims!

Please note that I am not pointing a finger anywhere. Unfortunately, almost every belief system in the world is guilty of this, including Australia's, as much as I would like to believe otherwise.

Sorry to preach, especially since my own belief's would probably not be accepted here,

Ken

[Brian W]

Ken, what you have noted is regrettably very true. The effect is , for lack of a better term, 'the us versus them syndrome'. it is not only to be found in religion. Sports, nations, clubs, brand of beer you drink all depend upon this syndrome.

Have you ever noticed that once you buy a car you start to notice how many of 'your' type of car there are?

Anything that is based upon us versus them has the potential for violence.

Brian

[bojan]

Well, this is a basic human instinct - we evolved as pack animals.
And this being a fact, the only thing we can do is to channelise this behaviour somehow - globalisation (universal dependency of everyone on anyone) is (unfortunately for some) one of the current options.
Another one may be the building of World Empire... Which one do you prefer ;) ?

[multiweb]

I hear US this, US that... :lol: Tapping away on a keyboard, voicing my opinions freely, on the (US) internet using a US produced operating system on a US design based computer? :) It comes down to freedom really? And it comes at a price.

[supernova1965]

This is the one thing that is rarely understood we are all dependant on everyone else everything we buy and do has in some way been made possible by the actions of someone else

[jjjnettie]

This brings to mind a quote made by the late, great, Katherine Hepburn in the movie The African Queen.....
"Human nature, is what we are put on this Earth to rise above".

[bojan]

Yes..
And it will be a very, very long and bloody process :sadeyes: ...

[bojan]

Mark,
don't forget that US is a migrant country, just as Australia is.. and it's citizens came from all over the world (just like you and me came here more or less recently).
But US government (establishment) has some very serious policy issues and attitudes.. and we are yet to see any improvement it that department.

[multiweb]

Yes and if you go far enough we all come from the same melting pot in the craddle of civilisation somewhere in the middle east. The system is not perfect but we all enjoy our freedom because of the US. Our way of life is what it is because they have played and still play a big part in it. You guys are aware that the Bin Laden family is loaded right? They mostly reside in the US although they're from saudi arabia. They don't mind the lifestyle.

[bojan]

And they are all good (business and otherwise) friends with Bush family..

[multiweb]

Absolutely. And there's a bit of history in there too... Bottom line is that terrorism is a by product of money. Bin Laden financed it with mum and dad's money. It's not going to disappear but somebody needed to make a stand and the US did. Good on them. Bin Laden death is symbolic. Is it effective? 10 yrs later with all the intel and resources allocated to find him? Probably not. It's a clear message though.

[bojan]

I wouldn't place so narrow a statement here..
Obtaining today's freedom (what is it, actually?) was a process involving many sides and factors.
Even USSR contributed in some way (yes, don't be horrified with this statement..)
USSR was a good example of how some things should NOT be.. but on the other hand, the threat from communism (being a real thing or not) to the west forced them to allow for many freedoms which would otherwise not be there (union movement etcetera)
The most recent (bad) examples (when there is no threat from Chinese Government) are situation in Apple's factories in Senzen (10 suicides in the last year, almost slave-position of local workers who work 12 hours or more for a fraction of pay compared to US workers.. This "business model" also came from US and you simply can't put it in the "basket of freedoms".

[Brian W]

Mark, your analysis is a wee bit shallow, the computer you label made in America has parts from China, Japan, Taiwan and who knows where it was assembled.

The American economy is kept afloat lately by loans from other governments and institutions with the biggest loaner being China.

We are an interconnected world. Hey, my breakfast about half of the time is Australia Harvest Oat Bran ( I love the spoons).

In my not very humble opinion humanities major problem for the 21st century will be how to direct our expansionist needs into areas that will not destroy us.

Always in the past humanity has been able to pick up and move when things became too oppressive. Was the new territory already occupied? didn't matter as long as our weapons were superior.

Nowadays, the heathens and savages have the same weapons that the oppressors do and as the Vikings learned in what was to become Canada, without better weapons or overpowering force you loose to the indigenous population.

Your belief that freedom comes at a cost is absolutely correct. The question is... who pays? Your free society is at least partly built upon destruction of the Aboriginal culture. Canada and American freedom is built, again at least partly on the destruction of the native culture.

As I type this I am listening to a military gunship on its way to do battle with people fighting for their freedom.

Maybe it is time to put the emphasis on responsibility rather than freedom.

Brian

[multiweb]

Well from where I stand we all owe them a great deal. It's all in recorded history. Sure nothing's perfect and there will always be corruption BUT and that's a big BUT, I still have choices as an individual. Lot of people need to take a few steps back, have a hard look at everything in everyday life that they take for granted. Freedom being the first.

PS: Not even going to go there Brian.... deep breath :)

[Kal]

No institute is perfect. Even institutions with the purest of moral intentions such as the roman catholic church are riddled with dark periods such as the crusades or pedophile priests.

If anyone thinks a utopian government is a realistic ideology then they are sadly mistaken.

[netwolf]

The greatest decit is that evil is dead. But it is always there, denyin that only gives it more power. Greed, selfishness, envy, what ever form it takes it is there in all of us.
Mirror miror on the wall, who is the most evil of them all....
Even though Hitler, Sadam, Osama, are dead there is always an answer to the above. Will there ever be a time when there is no answer to the above?

Freedom is first and last an awareness in oneself. Within the walls of his prison Nelson Mandella still held to this idea, I am free in my mind. Until you are free in your self there can be no external freedom.

Only the selfless know what it is to be free, and that quality seems rare these days.

[bojan]

Freedom to or freedom from ?
Freedom is a two-blade sword, mate.. cuts both ways sometimes..
I agree with Brian on his note about responsibilities - they come with freedom in the same package.

[multiweb]

It think it goes hand in hands with who's got the bigger stick. Let's see. Hypothetically, take the US out of the equation. What would happen to the world's balance? I'm talking about economy and technology as well. What would be the immediate consequence to Australia. (reminder: population 20 millions - massive reserve of underground raw resources)

[bojan]

But I can't do this of course.
But, let me ask you what would happen if we take out China from equation? Or Japan as it was 20 years ago?

The keyboards we are typing our little chat on would be costing $100 instead of $5.
So most likely we wouldn't be doing it (at least not me, I know I wouldn't be able to afford it, not at home that is)

[multiweb]

Production costs would have to come down again or people would have to pay more money but in the end it would balance out. It's called business. Free enterprise. Without any violence or wars. :)

[iceman]

Guys you're going a bit off-topic.

[netwolf]

Marc,

No violence and no Wars? the American economy will colapse ;)

[bojan]

Not necessarily.. Production cost went down ONLY because of places like Japan, Mexico, India, China.. where expenses for labour are (were) negligible.

When those economies and living standards come in line with the western level, the cost will go higher (like it happened in Japan).

And I am not entirely sure there will be no wars in this future situations - someone must be poor and desperate to work for less, otherwise the western economy (based on doctrine "greed is good") is stalling..

[multiweb]

Don't you worry about their defence budget. It's insane and would make NASA look cheap.


Yeah you're right sorry Mike. Back to Osama.

[bojan]

Yep...

Sorry :D

[Brian W]

This quote is definitely on topic;

We killed bin Laden and all it took was three wars, a million deaths, a trillion dollars, and infinite broken families and broken hearts.

May it never be necessary again.
Brian

[Paul Haese]

This entire event has me perplexed.

Why is it that the US and its allies can murder and destroy countless countries in the pursuit of their freedoms? Why would a country with a aggressive foreign policy and an intelligence agency that has a knack for causing untold trouble think that no one is going to eventually attack them? Why is it that 3000 odd people killed in the 9/11 attacks are any more valuable than the thousands of people murdered in any war the US decides to embark upon. Think of Loas and Iraq (the second time around) here? Remember we are technically war criminals for waging aggressive war with a pre-emptive strike against Iraq under the UN conventions; but apparently that is ok for us but not for other countries to undertake). They trained him and his followers so that they could get even with the Russians during the cold war and then deserted them when Russia pulled out of Afghanistan. What did the US really expect?

This will not stop these freedom fighters (AKA terrorists to the western world) from continuing their reprisals. These people are fundamentalists. This is almost a carbon copy of the IRA in Ireland. The branch of Muslims that these people come from are not going to disappear soon. They will now just ramp up their activities and attack harder and harder targets.

I personally found it disgusting and stupid to see US citizens celebrating this event. Are reporters that stupid? I don't see Bin Laden as evil or otherwise. He is a product of the circumstances in which he was placed. Why is it that we have not evolved to get past this rubbish? A Martyr he is and now I fear the real trouble will start.

[Brian W]

Paul, to answer some of your questions;

The U.S. and allies do it because they believe it is needed and they have the military muscle to do it.

It came as such a shock because except for the war of 1812 and a few Japanese subs and balloons and maybe a German sub or two no one had ever taken the fight to America and part of the cultural Myth was that they were invulnerable in the homeland.

Brian

[bojan]

No they are not.. they are just serving the wider community with the type of news and the way the community wants to see/hear that news :D

[Octane]

Agreed with everything you said, Paul.

He was friends with the US, much like Saddam, when it suited them.

H

[AstralTraveller]

Obviously this operation raises some serious moral dillemas. Extrajudicial killings by one country in another country which has not been informed about the operation tend to do that. Now we find that some of the inteligence used to track him down was obtained by torture (specifically waterboarding). Another can of worms opened and ready to be chewed. :shrug:

[Brian W]

Actually before one gets to the moral dilemmas of this particular action one just might want to question the doctrine of 'justifiable or moral war'

Brian

[Logieberra]

I'm just wondering if the firefight & capture will be featured in the next Call of Duty... sweeeeeet!

[scagman]

I'm surpriesed that the Taliban haven't released a pre-recorded doctored video show Bin Laden still alive holding todays paper or something to counter the US's claims that he was killed.

John

[dugnsuz]

To paraphrase an old computer analogy which could probably apply to any of the iconic despots, regimes, empires or ideologies discussed above...

evil in = evil out

It all works its way around in the end...karma baby!! Everybody gets a bit!
Osama just got his.

But, Mr Haese sums up the West's karmic conundrum very well!

God™ help us all

[GrahamL]

John the Taliban , from what I've read wanted him dead also
there stupidity in ignoreing what his small very secretive group was up to in northern Afganistan is still costing them dearly.

Its no mistake that the fellow was no where near the
the very people who once allowed him to do as he pleased.


So who are we at war with now this has all unfolded ?

[Jeffkop]

This thread has much divided opinion and more branchs than forked lightning, however for me there is one over riding factor.

America has a propensity to tell the story how best suits them. Ive seen so much of it I honestly dont believe anything I hear from them ... infact I dont have a definate sway on whether they actually DID kill him.

[Octane]

+1 Jeff.

H

[strongmanmike]

Viva la Wiki Leaks :thumbsup:

[Barrykgerdes]

Why do you think he received a summary execution. I bet he would have been able to do more harm to the US than Wiki leaks!

Barry;)

[Jen]

Yep im sure they will JJ