Pioneer Anomaly Solved !

[CraigS]

The dreaded Pioneer Anomaly may have finally been explained .. all without mysterious particles or making Einstein wrong ! …

New theory proposed to explain Pioneer probe gravitational anomaly (http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-04-theory-probe-gravitational-anomaly.html)



Damn ! I was hoping it would be something way more mysterious than that!
.. I wish it had stayed a mystery now. :sadeyes:
Oh well … easy come … easy go ...
:)
I guess we'll have to wait for the ensuing debate/criticism, before it can all be a 'sealed deal', though. ;)

Cheers

[marki]

Alex in not going to like this :).

Mark

[SkyViking]

Very interesting. I'm not surprised that it might be such a basic reason, actually rather surprised that they apparently hadn't already screened all the possible causes that could originate from the spacecraft itself.

[mr bruess]

hmmmmm interesting fact or solution

[KenGee]

it was always going to be something basic. It's a bit like a magic trick, at first it seems like it really was magic, but if your shown how it was done it's a little disapointing.

[ArcaneMagik]

This seems like something Slava Turyshev would have picked up quickly. Personally I will wait around for further confirmation...

A new theory of gravity would be so nice.

[Waxing_Gibbous]

I will have a better answer tomorrow, but from my father-in-law's recollection it was actually an Australian physicist who first worked this out.
He also 'proved' (mathematically), that small variances in the shape of the engine nozzles would have exactly the effect seen.
He was a physicist at CSIRO for years and knew the man in question well.
I'm an idiot and can't remember his name.
(The postulating scientist. Not my F.I.L. His name's Chris).

[renormalised]

Nah....doubt that. Never stopped before, won't stop him now :):P

[xelasnave]

This seems more novel than many of the ideas offered to date but I feel they are still clutching at straws ..any straw indeed will do if it will prevent the them having to face the inevitable conclusion than the current science upon gravity is not going to hold up in interstellar space.

This approach is little better than the leaking fuel tank idea of years ago.

Space is sticky due to the greater than observed pressure of energy and stuff seeking to pass thru it will slow because of the interaction... the razor suggests my idea should stand due to its simplicity ....

alex

[bojan]

Alex, your idea only looks like it is simple at the first glance..
But if/when/ you take a better look at it, it's a monster - the consequences of existence of push-itrons are totally inconsistent with every measurement and observation you can think of. We have been through this couple of years ago...
[this dash in the name of your particle (push-itron) is because of language filter.. Mike.s responsibility ;)]

[xelasnave]

Hi Bojan
sorry for delay in reply. One observation in support is the slowing of the pioneer ;)

[bojan]

Alex, this is not the case.
You never explained how and why the Push-itron existence would be the cause of Pioneer speed slowdown

[Zaps]

Alex, would you mind showing me the math behind your idea(s)?

[xelasnave]

:thumbsup:Forget the pu****ron whatever I suggest there is enough energy out there to provide the energy for pressure. Consider the available energy at any point in interstella space it must be near infinite. Use the reverse approach to that used by Hersel to determine the energy out put of the Sun. We can assume energy comes from every direction from up to 14 billion light years away Android such is the case for every point in the Universe. To quantify the number of tradjectories divide the surface area of a sphere 14 billion light years by little windows say by the smallest measurement we know...select the smallest quanta of energy that exists and multiply by the number oftradjectories to find minimum energy at any point.
Does this near infinite energy invironment interact with matter is the question. I think it must and think the pioneer slow because they need only engage a small fraction of the energy that passes any point. The math is simple to do from what I set out above.
alex:question::):):):question:

[OICURMT]

I scared my better half when I busted out laughing :lol:

[bojan]

Well... let's see it :P;)

[sjastro]

Alex,

What a totally circular argument.

You are trying to "prove" something on the assumption that it already exists.:shrug:

Regards

Steven

[xelasnave]

Hi Bojan hi Steven
before I do more I ask is there any point.? We have my premise firstly is it a reasonable approach? If such a situation exists will the passing energy interact with matter. If absolutely not the game ends there...if possible the idea then needs data as to the ctual energy present. ..my lack of math is irrelevent if the premise is flawed.
Anyways my original point was simply that this latest idea as to why they slow is still a straw grab andthe anomoly still remains unsolved in my view.
alex

[CraigS]

I got two words for ya Alex …. "dark matter".
:)
(Just kidding .. I don't think they made the Pioneers primarily from dark matter … but it does go to show that all contingencies should be considered when developing Science-shattering paradigm shifts ! :) )

Cheers

[xelasnave]

Hi there Craig well I think them slowing due to dark matter is better than leaking fuel or similar. Keep up with your interesting posts. When ever I can get on the net I look to see your lastest posts they are always interesting all stuff I like to read about...even m theory. .but that is like Android atheist reading the bible. .but its all good.
alexy

[CraigS]

Alex;
What is this 'Android' thing you keep dropping into every post today ?

Is it something we all need to learn up about ?

… or is it just something stuck in your keyboard ?

Cheers

[renormalised]

Yeah, same question!!.

[xelasnave]

Sorry they slip past. I purchased a little table and if you type an etc it inserts Android.
I will sort it out but its a pain. But for 100 bucks it provides me with a low energy device....I also lashed out and got me a 1 amp tv...must be using 20 amps a day now.
alex

[CraigS]

Another slip-shod, half-baked green development, eh ?

[sjastro]

So why are planets, comets, and asteroids moving towards aphelion not exhibiting the same effect which would result in a violation of Kepler's third law?

Regards

Steven

[xelasnave]

All things are what we chose to call them but for me its not about being green it is that I live without grid power.
Getting a 40 wattt wind genny later today to complete the mix.
Alex

[xelasnave]

Good question Steven but one I can't answer or will attempt to take on other than planets etc are within the heliosphere...mmm comets are anexception..but my cntention has been it is interstella space that has the effect...we have touched upon zpe maybe matter has a limited interaction with it. .. but you raise an interesting point to think about.
alex

[sjastro]

More of a rhetorical question.

The reason why planets, comets and asteroids don't exhibit slowing (other than the mechanism of gravity behind Kepler's third law) is that the phenomena you describe doesn't exist.

Regards

Steven

[xelasnave]

You could be right Steven again my point even leaving out my alternate energy pressure approach simply is the idea offerred being the subject of the thread seems to be more of the same similar to offerring leaking fuel tanks or similar as the answer. Or to put it another way I do not think the latest idea will prove correct and it would be a shame if thinking on the matter ended on the basis this latest idea means the file should be closed. Ideas such as leaking tanks would manifest differently between crafts whereas a universal cause would seem more reasonable to explain very similar behaviour.
Given Carls coments about ZPE today and its abundance I ask why its presence could not be the cause for example.
Always great to have your guidance and input.
Alex

[CraigS]

Yep … I'd say that constitutes outright denial of empirical evidence (presented by Steven) ...



Yep … don't ever let good, hard evidence EVER stand in the way of 'my intention' !!

:rolleyes:

[CraigS]

Who said anything about 'leaking tanks' ?? Where did this come from ??

How much does it take for you to accept a plausible explanation based on real Science, Alex ?

Cheers

[xelasnave]

Well you can say what you like and I say radiation bouncing off the dishes is probably not the answer but you do science an injustice if you say the case is closed in my view. The idea is interesting but to say it settles the matter does not sit well with me...don't get upset because I hold my view..it does not upset me that you hold different views. .you disagree so be it. ..if you are happy that the offerring is valid that's great but I don't agree this lastest idea is reasonable.
Alex

[bojan]

Alex, this doesn't make any sense.
The thing is, the numbers fit when the latest explanation is used to calculate the effects (slowing down).. while you cant provide anything like this to support your ideas.
Don't be so stubborn just for the sake of having your own "opinion".

[xelasnave]

I realised one thing howeverBojan the dishes would both polnt back to Earth in the same direction. ...mmm would this dish power cause the vehicles to "crab" .? If the dishes point to Earth you could thijk they may power the craft forwards. ..Bojan I am sorry to hold an opinion I can't prove but it keeps me thinking. There have been other ideas on these craft that were abandoned and maybe this is not the end. I am not suggesting that my ideas are right but someone else may coke up with something better...surely that is possible.And-out of respect for all of you who I frustrate I will say. ..this idea re the dishes is the most reasojable so far and. I will respect the scientific method used to prove the idea.
Alex

[xelasnave]

So far there is no other craft experiencing the pioneer anomoly suggesting the idea is correct if the current idea is correct no other craft will slow...so if they don't slow the same as pioneer the dish idea is beyond doubt...if other craft slow then the dish idea fails certainly...so any craft doing the pioneer trip. .we need a lisr of who is leaving the solar system. ..will they slow
alex

[OICURMT]

Alex

Early spacecraft were stabilized via rotation of the craft itself, so crabbing would not be observed, as it would "crab" around in a tight, miniscule twisting motion...

OIC!

[xelasnave]

An observed spiral would confirm the dish idea for sure. ..better get the 12 inch out. Fred Watson supports the dish idea I find.

[sjastro]

Alex,

Evidently you don't realize by contemplating ZPE is giving tacit support to Inflation theory.
Not that ZPE will have any effect on Pioneer.
You can't have it both ways.

You are pulling rabbits out of hats to support an opinion which is illogical and unsubstantiated.

Regards

Steven

[xelasnave]

:thumbsup:
Hi Steven
Thanks for answering my ZPE question. The Voyagers are not slowing so it looks as if my idea is wrong given their behaviour. If they finally slow well I will revisit it but at the moment the fact is I must be wrong as to a universal pressure as if there was such a player voyagers should be slowing...So that fact sinks my approach.
Thank you Craig and Bojan it seems you guys are right yet again and that's great there are few that I hold that view about.
If I was the PM I would ask you all to be my prime advisors.
alex:):):(