Beginner Help Please

[NatalieR]

Hi there,

I'm after some help from more experienced star gazers in chosing a solid telescope for my star addicted 10 year old daughter and the rest of the family.

By way of background, my daughter has always been fascinated with the stars and is very familiar with the objects that she can see in the night sky (as in being able to find constellations and planets etc). We were given an old Newtonian telescope by a friend who had bought it at K-mart many years ago. It's old and difficult to align so it doesn't get dragged out much but she has managed to see the rings of Saturn through it which was exciting. I think we're now ready to step it up a level and would rather spend decent money now than go cheap and want to upgrade in 12 months.

I've been researching for months now as to what would suit us best but would really appreciate other's opinions. Here's our list of requirements.

* Something that can be adjusted by a petite 10 year old would be most helpful. This is mostly for her - we're just riding on her coat tails :P

* We would like to do AP so an EQ mount with good auto-tracking would be great.

* I would really like the Go To functions. The plan would be for her to point out what she can see with the naked eye and then use the computerised capabilities of the scope so that she's still learning her way around the sky.

* I would also like something that has a relatively simply aligning feature as we often head down to the coast and would like to take the scope with us (to share the experience with the grandparents!).

* Something that we can slowly add to with better eyepieces, filters, etc would also be good.

* The ability to upgrade the OTA on the same mount would be nice but isn't completely necessary.

We have around about $3,000 to spend give or take a bit. We were thinking of something around the 9.25" range so that it's big - but not too big. We don't want to buy a toy as she has expressed a desire to eventually study astronomy/astrophysics at Uni (and she's been saying this for at least 4 years now) and we'd like to give her heaps of positive reinforcement between now and then.

Any and all suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers...Nat

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Natalie,

9.25" is pretty big, and for that size/budget you would generally be looking at a newtonian or a Schmidt Cassegrain (SCT) design on say and HEQ5 Pro or HEQ6 Pro mount.

Now you already mentioned about the alignment (collimation) of the newtonian mirrors has been an issue, so perhaps an SCT would be better for you all for a couple of reasons....

1) The tube is MUCH shorter and more compact than a traditional Newt
2) Less fiddling around with collimation (not that hard really), but less overall.
3) GREAT scopes for planets as their longer focal length compared to newts allows for higher magnifications. For example, my 200mm (8") newtonian has a focal length of 1000mm which makes it an F5 scope and with a 10mm eyepiece, I get 100x magnification (FL/EP). Now on say a CPC Celestron 8" SCT has a focal length of 2000mm which means you would get 200x mag from the same 10mm eyepiece. This is due to the folded light path design of the SCT.
4) Shorter SCT design means easier to handle and view through. Tube Length of the SCT mentioned above is around 17" or about 430mm. In comparison, my 8" Newt is over 1000mm long and the eyepiece position changes depending on where it is pointing on the Equatorial mount. On an SCT, the focuser is on the back and stays there no matter where it points.
5) Having an EQ mount means you wont get field rotation of the object you are looking at for AP. Fork mounted SCT's are effectively Alt AZ mounts meaning what ever you are looking at will slowly rotate in the eyepiece over time, meaning AP is harder or you have to buy an expensive and fiddly de-rotator to compensate.

Now, I am not an expert by any means, just some info I have gathered over time, more experienced members will chime in no doubt to correct anything I may have overlooked or got wrong.

FYI, I have a 8" Black Diamond newt on an HEQ5 pro which sells for around $1400 from Andrews Comms. Based on your budget of $3K, this is around half, this scope is MORE than capable of visual, goto, AP and deep sky objects and by having $1500 left to spend on cameras, coma corrector, filters, adaptors and eyepieces makes it a very nice bang for your buck price point to get you started.

The goto and computer control as well as the fast F5 ratio mean that my inner geek is kept happy and I can take AP shots quicky and cheaper than an expensive rig (although at a lower quality, obviously), after all, you do get what you pay for, however, it is not inconcievable to spend $5-6K on a serious AP rig if you arent careful.

Here (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=63415&highlight=obi+wan) is a post discussing my purchase as well as a pic of the rig with me standing next to it, I am 6 foot 9 and the tripod is all the way down, so you can see it is not quite the smallest thing, one reason why I suggest an SCT for your daughter....

Hope this helps,

Cheers

Chris

[NatalieR]

Chris,

Thanks for the response and the information. I agree that your rig is huge - one thing we don't want is for my daughter to need a step ladder to actually see anything. So as you said, the SCT will probably be a better choice for us.

I'm just finding it all a bit overwhelming and confusing at the moment. Hubby likes the Celestron CGEM 8" with a good EP perhaps. Will do a bit more reading I think.

Thanks again.

Nat

[mental4astro]

Hi Natalie,

I admire your enthusiasm for your daughter's excitement in astronomy. But just a few notes of caution, from another parent.

Your daughter is 10, and petit you say. Unless you and your husband are prepared to either construct a permanent observatory for her current interest, there is no way that your daught will be able to set up any telescope on an equatorial mount of the price range you mention in spending. These things are just so big and heavy, and unforgiving if dropped.

Are you prepared, as the only other alternative to a permanent set up, to set up the rig everytime she wants to use the telescope? And any equatorially set up scope requires time to align. Not seconds or minutes. The whole process is quite involved.

I strongly suggest to reconsider the style of telescope you would like to purchase. Today's Go-To dobsonians will not only find and track, but are also capable of allowing some astrophotography. Things like the Moon and planets are well within the range of extremly high quality final photos with only a dobsonian mounted scope and the appropriate software.

These telescopes are also much more easy to set up and move around. Though still considerable in size, and weight, they can be placed on a simple trolley to move around, and are set up and running in under five minutes. And something a reasourceful, enthusiastic 10 year old could manage with mum and dad around to lend a hand if needed.

If the enthusiasm to continue on the astro path is still there when she is older, and bigger, you and her, can revisit the more complex telescope question.

I am trying to offer practical advice. While an equatorially set up rig looks impressive, they are complex machines that can quickly dampen enthusiasm. You can spend all the money you want on a rig, but the only 'good' telescope is the one the most gets used. Not the fanciest looking.

If your daughter is excited about astronomy, get her something that will suit her age and size, and one that will grow with her. Don't write-off a dobsonian mounted telescope. These instruments are much more capable than they are given credit for.

Kind regards,

Alex.

[Brian W]

It is not only huge as in big and tall but it is heavy. There is no possible way a petite 10 year old will be able to handle that by herself.

Please go to a local star party or dealership and find out what she can handle.

Too much of a telescope will be just as much of a problem as too little.

I am 5' 10' and I found observing with an 8" SCT difficult. Moving it was a challenge too.

I can use and move an 8" dob mounted reflector with ease and view while sitting down.

Look into a dob mounted reflector with GOTO and possibly tracking... it could answer all your needs.

Final thought, an 8" reflector will give a life time of observing and with all the accessories available it can be used in most areas of observing so while it is possible to outgrow it it is not a given that your daughter or your family will..

Brian

[NatalieR]

Alex,

Thank you - these are all things that are on our pros and cons list. A permanent structure in the backyard is a possibility - just not yet.

We understand that she won't be able to handle anything much by herself at this stage but as my husband and I also have an interest in star gazing it's not a major hassle for us to help her drag out whatever it is we end up getting, and setting it up.

Brian - thanks for your comments too.

All food for thought - looks like I need to go and do some more reading on Dobs.

Nat

[mental4astro]

Hey Natalie,

Like Brian said, see if you can get to an astro-club before you lay your money down. You can then see both styles of scopes in action. From set up, to use, and take down. The asto-club lisiting in the "Our Community" heading in the left margin.

Even do it twice. The first time is all very exciting, and garranteed you will come away even more starry eyed. A second visit will see you with a better understanding.

[erick]

Hi Natalie

As Alexander suggested, one of the collapsible GOTO dobsonians might be just what you need here, eg. the Skywatcher Synscan 10" GOTO Dobsonian which sells for $1,499 at Bintel:-

www.bintelshop.com.au (http://www.bintelshop.com.au)

It is a good visual observing telescope and can also allow some basic photography.

The 8" for $1,099 is more easily handled and would give some years of pleasure.

But, remember, there is nothing better than getting under dark skies to see most interesting objects. If you are in surburbia, then you do need a portable telescope to be able to travel to sites away from city lights and bright skies. Both the scopes above will be fairly easy to transport, the 8" moreso.

And yes, you will slowly buy better eyepieces than those supplied. Almost everyone does. Expect to spend another $1,000 on eyepieces over a couple of years.

[barx1963]

I can only back up what the others have said. Alex Chris and Brian all know their stuff. The bit about getting to observing nights is the best advice anyone can give.
The only thing I can add is admiration for you as parents encouraging your daughter in her interest. Keep up the good work:thumbsup:

[NatalieR]

Thanks for all the help guys. This is a huge learning curve for me (as well as my daughter) and trying to compare one thing with another is a bit difficult. We are members of the local astronomy group but feel a bit lost there at the moment - this seemed like a safe haven for a newbie :)

We understand that it's the scope that gets used that is the best one for us - we want something that isn't going to frustrate her to the point where she stops enjoying it, so the goto/skyscan part is important to us. As was also said, being somewhat portable is important for us as well as we get plenty of dark nights down at my parents place.

I'm now heading towards the 8" auto everything dobs. Looks like it will hit the nail on the head for us.

Thanks again - I look forward to reading and learning.

Nat

[erick]

8" aperture - great place to start. Many on this site started there.

[Suzy]

Hi Natalie :welcome:



Agreed. Fantastic advice from everyone.

Just make sure whatever you get will all fit into the car along with the family when you go visiting. ;)

I hope these following links will be of help to you:
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/63-260-0-0-1-0.html (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/../63-260-0-0-1-0.html)
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/63-261-0-0-1-0.html (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/../63-261-0-0-1-0.html)


Natalie, it's highly likely that this won't be the last scope you get, believe me. I always think it's a good idea not to put all of your money into your first purchase, until you learn more about what it is you actually want out of a telescope. That's a lot of money to throw at your first serious scope. I just think that as her interest grows, so should a scope that she can handle.

Size and setting up really is an issue as Alex said, and one that should be considered very carefully. Are you prepared to spend the time it takes in setting up/aligning an EQ mount everytime your daughter wants to observe? I hear many stories of how long this procedure takes (I think it can be up to an hour from the stories I've heard (?) )

I think it's fantastic you are encouraging her to the level you are, and I also understand that you and hubby are keen stargazers, but realistically, are you really going to want to set it up every time your daughter wants to use it? I apologise if I'm being presumptuous, but I can see a lot of wars happening... And I'm not even talking about the frustration of having to adapt to weather patterns (often is the case by the time you finish setting up, the clouds gather).

And here's a classic example of "why the best scope is the one you will use the most" example:

Me.

I own a 10" solid tube dob.
Due to renovations, I'm unable to have my 10" dob downstairs (mostly used on the deck at the moment, not ideal & only view to the south). It's physically impossible for me to carry it downstairs and outside by myself -even dismantled- I'm 5 5" and 42kg). Like your daughter, I too am petite.
My old 6" I could easily carry by myself (dismantled, base, then tube).
-Observing days outside with my 10" since January: 1 (one)
-Observing days outside if I still had my 6": As much as I wanted, weather
permitting.
-Observing days outside with my binos since January: numerous.


Sure I can get hubby to carry it out for me more regularly (dismantled), but as much as he encourages and supports my hobby, there is grizzling (and I don't blame him) and I don't like to bother him too often. Now a dob doesn't take much time to set up at all- but it's still an issue, as my case reflects. Presumptuous I am again maybe, but I think you'll end up being "bothered" a lot.

My suggestion? Go an 8 inch dob. Start with it anyway. You can get them in solid tubes or collapsible, both with go-to.

Adding to that, I see one of your requirements is astro-photography. Did you mean happy snaps or full on AP? If it's the latter, I say "yikes" for a 10yr old- and just hope you have a bottomless wallet. :lol: Perhaps even say goodbye to visual observing.:question:

Just my experience and 2c for whatever it's worth Natalie. :)
I wish you all the best with your decision and hope you continue to be part of our community. :)

[NatalieR]

Suzy,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply and the links - interesting articles. We're now sold on the idea of the dob but with the full goto/synscan setup and buying a really good eyepiece to go with it.

I've spent most of today reading articles on the net and this site regarding the dobs and have decided that either casters or a trolley of some sort will be the way to go whether we settle on an 8 or 10 inch. It will live in the garage (until I convince hubby to knock down the peach tree and build us an observatory!) and get rolled/wheeled out when we want it. We're lucky to live in a fairly dark patch of suburbia with neighbours who kindly turn all their lights off by 8pm so we normally just setup the old scope in the middle of the driveway.

The astrophotography will be happy snaps at the start and if she (or hubby) decide they want more then I'm sure we'll end up getting something different for that specific role. For the moment, I'd just like my daughter to be able to see something a bit more than she currently can with the cranky old bit of kit we've got.

As for the money, I've been working towards this for a while now and wanted to get something that will keep her interested - not tick her off because it's difficult to setup and use. I had thought (incorrectly obviously) that the fancy EQ mounts that were computerised were going to be easier for her. I'm glad that I found out that's definately not the case :-)

Thanks again - I look forward to hanging around and learning more.

Nat

[Brian W]

[QUOTE=NatalieR;711337]Suzy,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply and the links - interesting articles. We're now sold on the idea of the dob but with the full goto/synscan setup and buying a really good eyepiece to go with it.

Natalie, having decided on a dob mounted reflector you have now entered an even more interesting, might I say confusing, arena... eye pieces.

Everyone has their own favourite set up but I have never heard of anyone with only one really good ep. You may well find that ep's are the same as telescopes different ep's do different things very well.

What will work very well for finding the dim little fuzzy patch that is an open cluster will probably not work so well to get the absolute best view of a crater on the moon.

So different ep's for different objects.

Prices are also incredibly variable. Orthoscopic (various brands) have excellent optical qualities but a comparatively narrow apparent field of view and are quite modestly priced

Naiglers have optics that are (arguably) no better but they have this incredibly wide apparent field of view that some people are willing to pay a seriously premium price for.

Whatever scope you buy will come with one or two ep's of reasonable quality and might I suggest you not be in a rush to upgrade to better quality. Take your time, find out what ep's are needed to see what you really enjoy looking at and then start buying.

Brian

[erick]

Hey Natalie, I recommend the collapsible, having seen and handled a few now. They are easier to handle and transport, and have the great advantage that it can be adjusted so the upper assembly isn't fully raised (several cm short of the top) but still is secure. Why would you want that? Well, if you get as far as putting a camera into the focusser, you would discover that, with a solid tube unit, you may not be able to get the camera to focus. By not raising the upper assembly all the way, you will be able to get a camera to focus for some astrophotography.

One extra item you should get is a light shroud to wrap around the open part of the scope. You should be able to easily make one, but you may need one or two plastic hoops to hold the material away from the light path. Pulling it tight across the three struts will likely block out some of the light that is coming from the stars and down the tube. A shroud is useful for:-

* Keeping extraneous light (streetlights, houselights, general sky glow) away from the inside of the tube - you just want the light coming from directly above the scope.
* Help keep dew from forming on the primary mirror (and stopping dust/dirt/leaves/cats getting in!)
* For when you drop something - it bounces off the shroud onto the grass (hopefully, not concrete) and doesn't fall onto your primary mirror - ouch!

Let us know how you go.

Once you have one, come back here and we can discuss important issues such as collimation, alignment of the finderscope, alignment of the telescope, what to look at and how to find it, how best to power it, when might you see colour in things, what eyepieces would be best - lots of good things! :)

ps. Your daughter can cope with the cold, lack of sleep, fighting off the mossies, being in the dark etc.?? All part of the hobby, I'm afraid. And did I mention extreme patience when it is clouded out for weeks on end!

[kitsuna]

Welcome Natalie :welcome:

I too have recently caved and bought myself a dob scope. Speaking as one who's just taken the plunge, I might be so bold as to suggest a few additional worthwhile items;

1. The Backyard Astronomer's Guide (MUST be 3rd edition).

This book covers pretty much EVERY part of practical amateur astronomy.

It covers everything from buying your first scope (what to do, and what not to do), explains how eyepieces work (and what's good and what's not), has a raft of chapters on astrophotography and how to get started. It also covers what to observe, and how to observe.

It even covers things like collimation very well (something you'll have to do with a newtonian). Speaking as someone who'd only ever read about collimation (in that book) before I bought my first scope, I have to say that once you do it the first time, it becomes very easy to understand how to do it in future.

I got mine thru amazon, and with the way the au dollar is going at the moment, it's worth snapping up.

2. Cheshire eyepiece for collimation. There are other options (lasers etc), but a cheshire eyepiece is simple, and it works.

3. as a first eyepiece upgrade, I personally recommend a 24mm (or similar size, depending on the focal length of the scope you end up buying) Panoptic from Televue. The reasons for this can be outlined in this thread:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=74009

A lot of people have their favorite eyepieces, and it's true that you will eventually need to get different eyepieces for different jobs (in the same way that you have different scopes for different jobs), but I've not yet heard a bad word about this particular eyepiece, and I'm convinced that you'll get an awful lot of mileage out of it. It's a winner.

[ballaratdragons]

Excellent that you have decided on the dob with GoTo.
They are brilliant!

Get her to see as much as possible before she becomes a professional Astronomer or Astrophysicist as they hardly ever (or never) look through telescopes in their jobs.

[NatalieR]

Morning all,

Brian - we're certainly going to take our time building up a collection of eyepieces. We will possibly invest in just one good one for the time being.

Erick - went looking at shrouds last night. I'd wondered how you kept extra light out of the centre of the scope! Miss 10 (Em) says that she's quite happy to freeze or be bitten and as she's a night owl, getting no sleep isn't a problem for her.

Kistuna - thanks so much for your list of information. We ordered the Backyard Astronomer's book last night through Fishpond.com.au (around $32 including free postage). When I get the telescope I'll be sure to get the Cheshire EP as well. That EP looks like something to go on the shopping list as well.

Ballaratdragons - what you said is so true. My PhD supervisor's hubby is a part of the Research School of Astronomy at my Uni. Em asked my supervisor what her hubby did now and she replied "raises funds for museums". Not quite what Em had in mind!

Thanks once again everyone. I'm going to ring up and place an order today - still tossing up between the 8" and the 10"

Nat

[mental4astro]

An 8" is brilliant.

But if you can stretch the budget to a 10", even better.

[NatalieR]

That's what I thought. We can definately do the 10" as the cost of it, a good eyepiece, external power and some other bits and bobs is still well under what I'd put away for the telescope. The local club that we're members of do monthly dark sky nights on member's properties outside of town...something that after doing more reading last night will greatly benefit the 10". It still makes it pretty manouverable as it will come straight out of the garage - and looking at the dimensions it will still fit in the X-trail.

Might have another cuppa and then make a call :D

Nat

[kitsuna]

Yep, its a good book. make sure you got the 3rd edition or later though!

As for choosing between an 8 and a 10, I really do recommend having a look through both (side by side if you can) to see the difference, both in your suburban viewing area and at your 'dream' site. This will allow you to get an idea of what you can regularly expect to see in each scope.

There's no doubt that you'll see more in a 10 inch, but I promise you that lugging a 10 around can be awkward (in hindsight, perhaps *I* should have gotten the 8 incher instead). That's why I suggest having a look through both, that way you can decide whether you want to have to deal with the extra size/mass of it. :thumbsup:

[NatalieR]

The book is definately the 3rd edition (thanks for pointing out the ed. yesterday).

Point taken with the lugability of the 10" v's the 8". Might end up making a decision the scientific way - flipping a coin :)

Nat

[Suzy]

Don't flip a coin yet Natalie :shrug:
Just read my response first. Then flip. :lol:
I'm working on it now. :computer: :D

[Brian W]

Go for it... no one has mentioned it yet that I am aware of but a nice free bit of software is Stellarium it will (once set up for your location) show you what is above you and it is designed for mid sized scopes so what it shows you can see (from a dark site).
Brian

[NatalieR]

It's ok Suzy - I'm having another cuppa.

I just spoke to hubby and said "What if the 10" turns out to be too big" - he said he'd build us an observatory in the backyard for the big one and get a smaller scope for us to pull out and use on an ad hoc basis.

The sticking point in the thinking at the moment is the "you might be able to see galaxies with the 10" ... I've got to be honest and say that's pretty alluring. Even just the possibility of seeing one.

[Brian W]

Might I suggest that the choice over an 8 or a 10 could swing on which one will get you the most options and accessories you want for the best price.

Mind you flipping a coin has worked well for me in the past.
Brian

[NatalieR]

Brian - we downloaded Stellarium a few weeks ago and have it calibrated for here. Late last night I popped outside with the bino's to see what was around. Low cloud and lots of light pollution but I noticed a star that I hadn't seen before (either middle aged dementia or I've not looked out that way or a different season or something!)...came inside and checked out what it was with Stellarium. Fooled around a bit with changing the max magnitude of what you can see - still plenty for us to discover even on not so great viewing nights.

Nat

[Brian W]

Ok, I am an avid galaxy hunter and I use an 8" LB. There are literally thousands upon thousands of galaxies you will see with an 8.

However if you are talking about seeing incredible detail in galaxies... that is just not going to happen with an 8 or a 10 or even a 20.

M-31, lots of detail including at least 1 large cluster, Triangle galaxy, some detail. Hamburger and Sombrero give interesting detail but most are just fuzzy balls of cotton.

Sorry about that but if you look at records from people who have completed or even attempted the H-400 an awful lot of the records are simply found NGC //// averted vision or very averted vision or it was just there. Rarely do you find a in depth description.

Consider that John Herschel caught @350 galaxies in the Carina region with his 18" scope. And he did not see an awful lot of detail in m any of them.
Brian

[NatalieR]

ARGH - you've just made it harder! I didn't expect to see detail - the tip of an arm in a spiral would be nice...but if it's not going to happen with either then we're probably better off with the 8".

[Brian W]

As I said, sorry but for the vast majority of galaxies there will not be a great deal of detail.

However, he says with a wink and a nod... hubby has already said get the 8 for now and I will build an observatory for the big one.

There are set-ups that will show you lots of detail... but they require lots of money.

In Canada owning a sail boat has often been compared to standing naked in a cold shower and tearing up a $20 bill every 2 minutes. Astronomy is much like that too.

If you go to the following link you will find a data base of photos and descriptions of most of the NGC. Often there will be 2 or 3 descriptions using different size scopes. You might find it helpful.

http://ngcicproject.org/

Brian

[Suzy]

Natalie, It's best you take your daughter (unless you've already done so) to an astro supply shop and get her to stand next to a 10" dob. I think the sheer size and weight will be overwhelming for her. But you would be the best judge of that of course.
But I'm really coming from the point of view if she has to move the scope around the yard to view things (move to dodge trees etc). That's where the 10" is going to be an issue I think. Even if it's on wheels.

Both my 6" and 10" have and had wheels attached to them. Even with the wheels, going over uneven grass etc, its a bit heavy/wobbly and awkward. The guys might actually laugh at me on here when I say this, but to be perfectly honest, with my 10", I fear I'm going to get pinned down underneath it If I'm not careful. Often, I've had to put my body up against it, holding the tube for support at the top whilst getting it out from being stuck on uneven ground, ledges etc. After 9 months of owning it, I'm now starting to get comfortable with how much I can tilt it before I go *splat* under it.

Putting wheels on a 10" was a completely new ball game compared to the 6". As the base and tube is much bigger, it demands bigger wheels with better movement. My setup for the 10" wheels are- 2 larger ones and 2 small castor wheels. The castor wheels help to aim the scopes direction. They are attached to a frame under the base. Not a solid frame as this would make the scope even heavier for me, but instead have used narrow long pieces of wood. Hope that makes sense. The larger wheels to get are the pneumatic type. Bunnings sell trolleys for around $20- the tyres on them are brilliant. They will be the ones going on my base replacing my current ones I have (which give no cushioning over bumps).

I tried the scope on the trolley in the shop before I bought the scope- just wasn't working for me. It made an already big and heavy scope into even more of a monster with the trolley. Everyone in the shop agreed - I was dwarfed by it all, and my frame just wasn't balancing it very well, *splat* was going to be inevitable. Perhaps the akwardness of the trolley was just me, who knows, but certainly worth checking into for someone with a small frame like me.

To give you a better idea of the size of a 10" scope against my frame, here is a pic (refer to post no# 30 and click on the image). Now remember, I said before my height is 5ft 5".(and a half!)
You will see in this image, the Saxon (and Skywatcher) have long handles (used for tension adjustment) attached to the top of the base. This is what I use to pull the scope around the yard with on the wheels. Brilliant! I yank it everywhere.
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=901&page=30

I got used to lugging around a 6" before even contemplating the 10". And I can tell you, I was very nervous for quite some time handling the 10". If you were leaving your daughter outside alone with the scope, maybe you might have a better peace of mind with an 8" (?) you will be the best judge of what's do-able. If she doesn't have to move the scope around to get the best views and it just sits there on the same patch of grass the whole night - go for it.
Just make sure the base will fit on the back seat. It won't fit into the boot of a large car (I have one). Tube goes in the boot, diagonally.

Carefully consider the 10", and don't rule it out completely though.
If you were to start with an 8", when she gets older, then you would upgrade to a 12". Something to really look forward to. Jen here, has just bought herself a 12" collapsible. So it's handle-able - just! ;) She went from a 6" too. She still hasn't gotten over the awe factor from the big jump- don't think she's slept in the last two months. :lol:
Dobs give the best apperture for price for visual observing. Either size, you definitely won't be sorry. The views that I got through my 6" were just incredible. Going from a 6" to a 10" was quite noticable. Just as it would be going from an 8" to a 12". Generally the two steps up is what I've come to understand the jump size is to take. Don't even think of upgrading to a 14"- you'll need a truck. :lol: 12" bottoms out at about the practical size
Even with a 6", you'll see nebulas, galaxies, globs, everything. A dark site will also give you better views than from suburbia- it's like throwing on an extra 2" of aperture.

And I'm going to yell out to all the guys here that rule only by aperture saying bigger is better and tell them to pull their heads in, because sometimes it comes down to sheer practicality. http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/../vbiis/images/smilies/tongue05.gif

Don't confuse yourself with eyepieces yet. Not even until you've had the scope a few months at least. But keep that extra money for things you will need: eyepieces, filters, barlow, eye piece boxes, maps, books, software, etc etc etc. Premium widefield eps start at close to $300 (I think Panoptics start around $270). So that gives you an idea price wise what to expect if you go down the premium ep path.
Do bear in mind though, that the 10" dobs have a faster focal ratio and therefore, will have an impact on the edge performance of many eyepieces. I have a 15mm Orion Expanse and the whole eyepiece is useless now, and I spent $100 on it. All the stars are blurry.
Slower scopes are more forgiving- I didn't really have much of an issue with the 6"- my 15mm worked beautifully. You shouldn't really have a problem with the 8" either. Just once you go under f/5, seems to create some problems.

Hope this helps Natalie.

[Suzy]

My hands are sore. :face:
If I don't post anymore today, you'll know why.:P I think I need a cuppa now. :lol:

[overlord]

I hate to go against the grain but I do not think that a Dob is a beginner's telescope. The thing is unwieldy... the images for popular objects like planets and saturn are less than perfect. U need to put it on wheels or it's basically really annoying and doesn't get taken out.

Maybe a smaller dob yeah... they make plenty of nice small ones...

Otherwise I recommend something like this!

http://www.tasco.com.au/Products/CategoryID/137/List/0/catpageindex/4/Level/a/ProductID/772.aspx

Sharper views of planets and a decent price!

(BUT since Dobs are now really cheap .... GO FOR IT!!! LOL!!!! What's to loose lol.) Edit: Yeah, like Suzy says Good stuff there! My 8" Dob is on wheels!

[overlord]

A few years back I went galaxy hunting from my suburban site. I saw nothing except the faintest possible whisp of M104, the Sombrero, So that's with my 8" in heavy light pollution so yeah, dark sky any Dob really will show u a galaxy. :)
Basically u need a dark sky and u WILL see them. :) even with a slightly smaller dob.

[Suzy]

Regarding galaxies, Brian is right, Natalie.

Don't expect too much. Though understand that as the eyes get better at studying little bits of detail, they will improve at seeing more. It's all about pushing visual observing to it's limits.
I've only seen 3 galaxies so far. Andromeda from a dark site in my 10" was huge and jaw dropping. Centaurus A (NGC 5128) showed a bright round glow, but I couldn't make out the dark lane inside. The guys in the obs. forum tell me the more I study it the more I will be able to pull out and see from it. The other one is The Sombrero Galaxy (M104). Only saw that thru my 6", but it was just a tiny cigar shaped fuzz. Yet to see in my 10".
A dark site tho is a must for galaxies.
Regardless of the little detail we see at the time, what is amazing is just that we can see them at all and how far they are away. The Sombrero all though tiny and fuzzy through my 6" is something like 33 million light years away! That in itself is awesome to see!

For more of an idea of what to expect to see, I recommend you take some time and lots more cuppas and have a read through the "Observation Reports" which is right at the top of the page in the "Observational and Visual Astronomy Forum". But I've given you the link to it straight here.
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=25

Many of these guys posting reports here are experienced observers, so they have worked up to this stage.
My reports reflect my young experience of 18 months:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=71992

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=73786

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=67200

[Suzy]

Oh, forgot to add, regarding observing reports.
Make sure you read some of Orestis' reports. Most of them were done when he was only 14 years old (he had only just recently turned 15). He did most of his observing from something under a 6" at the time (130mm I think), from a dark site. He has just in the last few months got himself a 12".

[NatalieR]

Suzy - thank you for your epic post.

And thanks to everyone else for their input. Based on the comments here and some discussions with a knowledgeable friend, we've decided to go for the 8" and buy some decent EP's and filters just to get started. Later on down the track, once we've learnt a heap more than we do now, we'll no doubt buy some other bits and bobs but for the moment we're pretty happy that we've put together a solid kit.

The order has gone in and we should have it by the end of next week with any luck.

Thanks yet again - we would have made a costly mistake without the all of the input here.

Now off to read some observations.

Nat (and Em)

[Brian W]

Good for you! Now comes the bit of bad news. By buying all this new gear you have invoked the astronomers curse. You can now expect up to three months of overcast that will only partially clear during full moon. Or it may be nice and clear for the arrival of your scope.

Brian

[Screwdriverone]

GOOD ONE Brian!

NOW you tell her! ;)

Great work Nat, did you go for the 8" GOTO version? This is cool because you will be able to connect the scope to a laptop and "drive" it from Stellarium etc....nice feature I use all the time on mine.

Have fun

Cheers

Chris

[NatalieR]

Brian - crystal clear skies last night...no scope :( We're very much ready for the Astronomers curse but figure it will give us a good chance to learn how to use the thing!

Chris - yep, the SynScan/GoTo version :) For those nights when Miss Em is tired and frustrated (or I am!) I wanted a plan B. It's still important for us that she learn the sky (and us too of course) but I didn't want it to be her only way of finding stuff.

Time to go and make space in the garage for the beast!

Nat

[Suzy]

Well done on your decision Natalie, a fine choice and a great compromise. :2thumbs:

When you upgrade for you & hubby, it will be an easy go to scope for your daughter- she will see many years through with it and it will grow with her for many years to come, as opposed to outgrowing it. Many of us here started with a 6" or 8" scope.:)

Regarding your scope being stored in the garage, I once read somewhere that if tools in the garage have rust on them, then it's no place for a scope. :shrug: Does it get damp/windy there? Is it where the car is parked (exhaust fumes etc that can get on to the mirror).
Perhaps I'm over reacting, but i've been told never to store my scope in a garage. :shrug: I don't know about a garage that is attached to a house though. :question:
I have concerns so I wonder if someone can chime in here that knows more on the subject. Ron?

[Brian W]

:question:
I have concerns so I wonder if someone can chime in here that knows more on the subject. Ron?[/QUOTE]

answer; to paraphrase Ron in the Sorcerers Stone... you got to get your priorities straight... leave the car outside, install a fan and solve all the problems.:thumbsup:
Brian

[Suzy]

[/QUOTE]answer; to paraphrase Ron in the Sorcerers Stone... you got to get your priorities straight... leave the car outside, install a fan and solve all the problems.:thumbsup:
Brian[/QUOTE]

Classic! :lol::rofl::rofl:

[astroron]

If the garage is also the storage place for liquids such as petrol, oil, paint, ect and work is carried out on the car then the garage is not is not the place to store the Telescope.
The storage place needs to be dry well ventilated and have as little dust as possible.
Covers for both ends of the scope plus a plug for the focuser, and also a cover that covers the whole of the scope in the Horizontal position.
Always after a nights observing check in the morning to see if there is any misting on the Primary and Secondary mirrors and leave to dry naturally until clear.

Cheers

[NatalieR]

Thanks for the info guys...I had absolutely no idea. Looks like it's going to get stored in the lounge room until we work out where to put it permanently. Wonder if hubby would mind it living in the corner of the bedroom? We have ordered a cover for the entire thing and will look at getting plugs etc once I see what it's got when it gets here.

Thanks again.

Nat

[erick]

For an 8" telescope, buy a quality shower cap and fit it over the mirror end of the telescope when it is in storage. That should keep the creepy crawlies and dust out from that end.

[stattonb]

8'' Dob goto is a great first scope to get not to big but not to small lol ya can always upgrade in the future if you want to do some advanced imaging.
Good size for your little one too,you should get many years of fun with it :)