When is an Asteroid Not an Asteroid

[astroron]

An interesting article from JPL/NASA
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2011-100&cid=release_2011-100

My name is on a disc aboard this Space Craft;) and will be following this mission with interest:thumbsup:
Cheers

[mr bruess]

Officially, Vesta is a "minor planet" -- a body that orbits the sun but is not a proper planet or comet
let's hope that this lump of rock won't hit the earth one day.

[higginsdj]

Not unless something very big knocks it our way!!!

Cheers

[jjjnettie]

Very interesting Ron.
I have 2 small meteorites that are identified as originating from Vesta.

[CraigS]

Hi Jeanette;

This is the Science Forum, so I feel it reasonable to ask the following questions:

i) what testing has been done on your samples (& who did them);
ii) what were the results of these tests;
iii) how was the conclusion made that they are meteorite fragments;
iv) what evidence exists that the fragments may be V-type asteroids;
v) how was the conclusion made that they are V-type asteroids.

Its an interesting topic, and I'd appreciate a better understanding of the full story.
Thank you, (in advance), for sharing whatever information you may have.

Cheers & Rgds

[jjjnettie]

My meteorites are from the witnessed fall at Tatahouine, Tunisia, 27th June 1931.
They are classified NWA 1877 - Olivine Diogenite.

Beryllium-Neon cosmic ray measurements indicate that the entire Tatahouine mass traveled in space as a meteoroid for approximately 38 million years. Meteoriticists have studied a proposed impact event believed to have occurred on the differentiated asteroid (4)Vesta.

Due to its intrinsic properties, Tatahouine is classified by petrologists, as a DIOGENITE class meteorite. Diogenites are part of the greater class of achrondritic "H-E-D" family of meteorites, or Howardites, Eucrites, and Diogenites, the basic three types of classifications well accepted to be from the (4) Vesta impact event described. This fact corresponds nicely with the (4)Vesta parent body theory for Tatahouine, as all Diogenites are currently considered to be from (4)Vesta.

http://www.diogenite.com/tata1.htm

[CraigS]

Cool. Who classified them … and how?

Cheers

[jjjnettie]

Not sure Craig.
I bought them from Galactic Stone. http://www.galactic-stone.com/
There may be more details if you dig into his website.
Careful though, his shopping cart has well oiled wheels and it's very hard to say no to some very nice samples.
My little bits of Vesta cost less than $10.
My tiny granules of Mars though, oh boy. But it's worth it to be able to say that I've actually touched Mars. :eyepop: :rofl:

[CraigS]

Very cool Jeanette.

Much appreciated. I'll cruise their site with much interest.

Cheers & Rgds

[CraigS]

Hey Jeannette;

When did you purchase it ?

Cheers

[jjjnettie]

I bought my samples last year.

[CraigS]

Looks like the original:


The original 312 grams, was found in Morroco/Algeria.

The classification of the original looks to have been done by:
Vernadsky Institute of Geochemistry and Analytical Chemistry, Russian Academy of Sciences, Kosygin Str. 19, Moscow 117975, Russia.

Source and Quote: The Meteoritical Bulletin, No 88, 2004 July (http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/docs/mb88.pdf).

Interesting.

Cheers

[CraigS]

Looks like the original may have 'done the rounds', also.

Seems like the bulk of it has ended up at the Dept. of Earth & Space Sciences, University of Washington, Seattle, WA 98195 (irving@ess.washington.edu), Carnegie Institution, Washington, DC 20015, The Hupé Collection.

This paper (http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2005/pdf/2188.pdf) says:



Comes from the depths of Vesta !

Cool.

Cheers

[sjastro]

That's very interesting Jeanette.

Regards

Steven

[Outbackmanyep]

I recently purchased a meteorite from a dealer at our local gem and lapidary show, it is an end cut (gotta love end cuts!) of the Wiluna meteorite which fell in Western Australia. It was the end result of a witnessed fall on the 2nd Sept, 1967.
http://www.crystalencounters.com.au/
I regularly purchase a meteorite from this fellow at Minerama (Glen Innes) but i couldn't make it this year, luckily he came to our local lapidary club show and i was able to make it. He even let me hold a $26,000 Millbillillie specimen (Eucrite) which was about the size of 2 housebricks! Unfortunately my wallets not that big.

My collection builds slowly once again.....

[jjjnettie]

They're fascinating objects to be sure.
I hope to add to my collection in the future. Some moon rock would be nice.

[CraigS]

I notice Mr Yep's site has an IMCA (International Meteorite Collector's Association) membership. They advertise 'Authenticity Guaranteed'. Being curious, I checked up how they provide such guarantees. From the IMCA website:



They go on to tell some scam stories. (http://imca.cc/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=48)

It seems they rely as much on the Ethical Standards of their members, as on scientific analysis. Their Code of Ethics is here. (http://imca.cc/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5&Itemid=15) I guess this arrangement parallels the gemstone industry process. My view on this is, that I can see that when someone buys a gemstone, they are as motivated by the aesthetic appearance of the sample as much as the authenticity. If the sample turns out to be inauthentic, at least you still have a pleasing looking sample.

With meteorites however, I can see that, perhaps, the motivation behind the buyer may be more skewed in the direction of buying authenticity.

For anyone wanting to check the authenticity of a sample, they list the institutions who specialise in classification. The list is here. (http://imca.cc/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=39)

The only site in Australia they mention is:
"The Meteorite Shop/Bathurst Observatory, New Zealand/Australia."
They have a link called: "Classification Service Instructions", but this page has been removed.

I guess, being interested in science and the way the real world works, I agree with Steven's (sjastro's) spectroscopic analysis for the ultimate authentication.

Very interesting.

Cheers

[astroron]

Could someone please get back to the original point of my post:question:
The thread was not about when is a Vesta Meteorite not a Vesta
meteorite ;)

Cheers:thumbsup:

[CraigS]

That would be up to you, Ron.

From your first post, it would seem that your only point was that:


… which would seems to have little to do with anything of Science Forum interest !

At least the topic now has something to do with scientific authentication of a sample.

Please feel free to bring the topic back onto something of scientific merit as it certainly didn't start that way !

Cheers

[astroron]

You know that is not true Craig:rolleyes: the bit about my name being on it was just an add on.
the Title of the thread is


When is an Asteroid Not an Asteroid
Not when is a Vesta Meteorite not a meteorite not a Vesta meteorite:shrug:

Cheers

[Outbackmanyep]

I guess what science can be gleaned from the meteorite/Vesta talk is that the Dawn mission will hopefully shine a brighter light and prove or disprove that eucrite meteorites have actually came from Vesta and not another body in the asteroid domain.
Spectroscopy is the key that suggested the agreement between these particular HED meteorites and the parent body, which appears to be Vesta (it is the best match so far).

And to add to Ron's involvement in the Dawn mission, my name is also planted on it!

[CraigS]

Ron;
How can it not be true when they were your own words?

.. And how can spectroscopic examination of an asteroid NOT be about When is an Asteroid Not an Asteroid ?

The authors of the article did not publish their article onto the IIS Science Forum website … you did !

Frankly, if posters are not prepared to make some kind of point which has scientific merit, then it would be up to others to make it, and for the original poster to not then complain about the direction the thread takes.

This would be especially so, if there have been zero follow up inputs by the original poster defining their particular topic of interest, of the many points made in the article(s)!

Posting articles and then expecting others to somehow know why the article was posted, relies on some kind of magic … which is not science and doesn't belong here !

[jjjnettie]

Sorry about hijacking the thread Ron.
kinda got carried away there.
We should have started another thread.

[renormalised]

When it's made of green cheese:):P

Seriously, it will be interesting to see the results from the Dawn probe after it starts looking at Vesta. Will be interesting to compare the results from there with what they'll get from Ceres when Dawn goes there later on.