Significant Home Improvement Of The Family Unit or Not? [Archive]

AstroGuy

12-03-2011, 02:13 PM

Hi y'all

Was talking to my Uncle a while back and he raised an interesting question.

What is it, that households have now that they did not have 100 years ago?
meaning what significant improvement has advanced/devolved the family household to date?

Basically, what significant bit of technology is now in the home that was not there 100 years ago?

He pointed out to me that after all the trillions of dollars, sweat, blood, and tears, wars, billions spent on space exploration, scientific research, escalating arms race etc...What we have is the computer, and has it really benefited the family unit?

You decide, was it really worth all that heartache for a computer in the household? or have we all been sucked in, yet again?

I'd like to read your thoughts on this.

Regards...

adman

12-03-2011, 03:52 PM

100 years ago was 1911....

well - I think your uncle missed a few things....I don't think that if you grafted a PC onto life 100 years ago you would come anywhere close to having what we have today....

not all (or at least not many/any) households at that time would have had running water, sewage, electricity, private transportation, washing machines, insulation, air conditioning, radio (not to mention television)

then there are the things that technology has enabled that aren't strictly 'bits of technology themselves such as better textiles, improved building products and methods, low infant mortality rates etc etc

where do you stop. The world has seen such vast changes in the last 100 years. It is probably the fastest rate of change at any time in human history :shrug:

AstroGuy

12-03-2011, 04:13 PM

Yep, I also pointed this out to my uncle. I understand better textiles etc...Basically what you are saying is that the "quality' of life has improved.

Basically all items in the household though still have the same function, whether electricity was used or wood burners = same function, Hole in the ground or indoor Lavatory = same function etc...All these functions still exist nothing new really. Only significant thing is TV & computer. My point is, was it worth it to spend all that money and life for something like a TV & Computer in every household? :shrug:

Regards...

guggle

12-03-2011, 04:14 PM

Without computers, one wouldn't be able to post questions like that on a forum like this....

Draconis

12-03-2011, 06:15 PM

Its a bit like the ''What have the Romans ever done for us?'' scene from Life of Brian....the list would be endless :lol:

ballaratdragons

12-03-2011, 06:26 PM

Roads, Aquaducts, sanitation, . . . :lol:

supernova1965

12-03-2011, 06:49 PM

You could do an experiment I think that you would be surprised stop using everything that has a computer in it for a start. Do some research but don't use a computer don't drive your car to get to the library either it has a computer in it too, I think you will be surprised what that will rule out for you. Then stop using your TV as well. I will see you in a month after your experiment and you can tell us what it was like:P

OzRob

12-03-2011, 07:06 PM

The refrigerator without which a cool beer would be more difficult...:D

rmcconachy

12-03-2011, 07:07 PM

Penicillin (discovery by Alexander Fleming in 1928) and other antibiotics have saved a huge number of lives. You've no doubt used some at home at some point. Refrigeration (been around for more than a century but usage in the home only really started in the 1920s and took decades to become common) was another big leap since you could safely store food for long periods, an icebox doesn't work nearly so well. Much of the research money was spent employing scientists and engineers which directly benefited their family units. Your uncle's comment brings to my mind an image of a guy looking around and saying "Apart from a goodly chunk of everything I can see just what have we gotten out of this?" :D

adman

12-03-2011, 07:18 PM

Refrigeration! thats actually the best one so far. Just try to imagine life without a fridge......I would rather have a fridge than a PC....I think :question:

adman

12-03-2011, 07:29 PM

Have you ever had a wood burning heater / stove? Its a lot of work. Chopping the firewood, carting it inside, lighting the fire and keeping it lit, carting out the ashes. Sure - you (kind of) achieve the same end result, but I would hardly equate it with central heating or a gas oven.

Likewise a 'hole in the ground' bred disease, was smelly, required a person to come around and cart away your sh** (I bet his quality of life wasn't the greatest), and was outside - not pleasant when you are in need of late night relief.

so now its a TV and a PC? ;)

The question tries to separate technology from quality of life which is impossible, the two have progressed hand in hand. Many of the advances that led to you having a PC in your home have also gone towards making our lives easier, better and more enjoyable than they were in 1911.

Adam

AstroGuy

12-03-2011, 08:44 PM

They also had refrigeration back then too, no different, function = same as today.

Regards...

AstroGuy

12-03-2011, 08:45 PM

These days TV's are computers.

AstroGuy

12-03-2011, 08:56 PM

Yes but you are talking about one extreme poor end of the living condition.
Compare it to a house of the same living condition of today. for e.g.

If you have a house with x appliances, and function and living conditions back in 1911, now compare to house with same x appliances, and function and living conditions of today. No difference except addition of a computer.

Regards...

supernova1965

12-03-2011, 08:59 PM

But you resist and ignore my comments and my challenge:question:

AstroGuy

12-03-2011, 09:03 PM

Yeah but you can still drive cars that don't have computers. same as 1911. I'm just talking about the household.

I'd rather live underground for a decade and slow down time. :)

Regards...

supernova1965

12-03-2011, 09:05 PM

And I challenge you to say that none of your household stuff like your watch or your phone don't have a computer in it as an example. Some are unwilling to see that computers are responsible for everything now days they are responsible for all we use these days their influence is everywhere. And cars without computers are quickly becoming vintage specimens that are collectors items hardly the norm.

AstroGuy

12-03-2011, 09:08 PM

Heh, I enjoyed that. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Most of the me's in parrallel universes have either done it or are currently doing it, some with a vengeance! :lol: to late my friend :lol: :lol::lol::lol: :)

Forgot to add, they also told the you's in those parallel universes and you should get the message soon. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :thumbsup:

Regards...

AstroGuy

12-03-2011, 09:11 PM

Quantum delay propagation, wait for it, it'l get to you............ :)

AstroGuy

12-03-2011, 09:24 PM

Sorry Warren, I was not ignoring you mate.

Ok, I've communicated with the other me's from the other parallel universes with my quantum communicator, and they all confirm...function = same, only difference is computer. :)

Regards...

AstroGuy

12-03-2011, 09:28 PM

Hey Warren,

On a slightly different note....

Did you actually get to find out if the moon was closer to the earth somewhere in the past the way you perceived it? If so, was mankind about back then?

Regards...

casstony

12-03-2011, 09:51 PM

The computer/internet can be especially valuable to people suffering from disability due to old age or disease. It reduces the sense of isolation, and it's a resource useful for finding ways to better cope with illness when modern medicine fails.

So while many of us would not miss the internet too much (and probably should spend less time on the net), it is a useful tool and theraputic for a significant percentage of the population.

AstroGuy

12-03-2011, 10:32 PM

Yeah, internet good, addiction bad :mad2:

I know how you are seeing this from your point of view, my concern was why did we pour so much money into it, fight wars over it, scare the daylights with arms races, and basically take human life for it. Was it all worth it? when the computer could of been achieved for the benefit of mankind without loss of life, destruction and agony.

Function = same, only difference is computer.

Regards...

rmcconachy

12-03-2011, 11:21 PM

Not in homes they didn't, they had iceboxes which weren't as cold as current freezers even if you did keep reloading them with ice. The difference is important if you want to preserve food for a lengthy period. Refrigerators in 1911 were massive things used in factories (sometimes).

I'm afraid that I do not understand your last post. Where does the "...fight wars over it, scare the daylights with arms races, and basically take human life for it" come from? Some new technologies and technical improvements have come from defense research, e.g., radar and a lot of aeronautical stuff, but that was a consequence of the way history unfolded rather than because it had to be that way. Charles Babbage was playing with computers more than a century ago. Neither vacuum tubes nor transistors were invented by defense research (the latter was invented in the Bell Telephone Labs). Tools can be used for good and bad purposes and progress can happen in peace or during war. I'm sorry but I don't get where you are coming from.

AstroGuy

12-03-2011, 11:51 PM

Mate...they had Ice powered fridges. Ice used to come from the mountains on horse driven carts to the towns. People used to buy Ice blocks so they could power their fridges on it.

Function = same, only difference is computer.

point is, they still had fridges. same function = food preservation.

If you want to know where I'm coming from:

If you take a household from 1911 and compare it to one exactly the same as today minus the computer, only difference is the computer.
You can perform the comparison at any part of the living condition spectrum and the difference will always be the computer. This is the achievement of man in 100 years. But look at the price we paid to have it in our homes, and was it worth it?

It is a little confusing, if you compare a household of 1911 against one of equal caliber of today, the difference is the computer.

Function = same, only difference is computer.

Regards...

Draconis

13-03-2011, 12:12 AM

How did they keep these ice blocks frozen on the back of a horse drawn cart as they went from town to town? Was this just a winter enterprise reserved for those people lucky enough to live in towns surrounded by snow capped mountains? The rest of Australia just had to suffer without their ice powered fridges i guess? :question:

Did you dream this?;)

casstony

13-03-2011, 12:13 AM

I think you're getting cause and effect mixed up Eugenio.

Wars are initiated to serve the selfish interests of individuals or nations, to gain more power and more stuff. The pace of technological development quickens during war motivated by the struggle for survival. We don't fight wars in order to get better machines, but better machines can be a by-product of war.

Humans are only slightly more evolved than other animals on the planet - we've got to move a lot further away from our primal instincts before an end to wars is in sight. The competitive nature that served us well living in small tribal/family groups is not well suited to modern society.

marki

13-03-2011, 12:22 AM

So you still take a dump out the back do you???? Any fool can see there are a lot more differences then just a computer between a home built in 1911 and one built today. Wars were never about bloody computers, oil, inbred royals, mad dictators yes but never computers.

Mark

AstroGuy

13-03-2011, 12:26 AM

I totally agree.

Don't get me wrong, not saying we have not benefited from the computer. But just suppose most of the resources that went into developing the computer were instead used to help those people you mention instead? Would those people be in the same position they are in now? probably not I think. :)

Regards...

AstroGuy

13-03-2011, 12:29 AM

No mate, but I can see how easy it was for you to see it that way :lol::lol::lol:

Regards...

AstroGuy

13-03-2011, 12:34 AM

They started from the mountains with very large blocks. By the time they reached the towns they were smaller blocks. Not saying it was efficient ;)

And in Australia we had Spinifex coolers and air con, and if you were real lucky you paid people to fan you :lol::lol:

AstroGuy

13-03-2011, 12:36 AM

Definitely, we need to "evolve" already.

Regards...

AstroGuy

13-03-2011, 12:47 AM

Correct me If I'm wrong, I think the original computer was stonehenge? Now You could argue this and say the organic brain was. I Don't think however that stonehenge was a by product of war, only a device developed for the quest for knowledge and the understanding of the stars, planets and possibly the universe (that we know of).

Regards...

Davi5678

13-03-2011, 12:50 AM

With just a cursory glance at the history of humanity, you will find warfare has been the constant since the dawn of time, it is also a fundamental motivator in the development of technology from throwing rocks at each other to ICBM's.
If you could point out a period in history in which there was an outbreak of 'world peace' then your argument might have some validity.
The common and popular modern misconception is that the world is supposed to be 'peaceful' and we're all meant to get along is just Walt Disney claptrap.

marki

13-03-2011, 12:50 AM

.--..-.-----...--.- -.---- .-----.-.-.-..-.--.

rmcconachy

13-03-2011, 12:59 AM

Personally, I'll take the drug cabinet as the biggest difference. Computers are great tools but antibiotics have saved a huge number of lives. The amount of effort (money and time) invested in computing research as a share of the total amount of research and development across all areas is actually very small. Computers are important tools, crucial for some things, but I disagree that they are "...the achievement of man in 100 years." You've been given several other examples but you've waved them off because something sort of similar but often not functionally equivalent existed a century ago. If you want to play that game then scratch the computer too since slide rules date from the 17th century and they are kinda, sorta, almost, about the same and my great grandfather had one in his house a century ago. He didn't know how to use it - and I cannot remember how to any more either - but he had one! I guess that means we've gone nowhere during the last one hundred years. :D

Draconis

13-03-2011, 01:01 AM

There is no evidence as to what the function of Stonehenge was, if there was a function at all. It might have just been a very fancy garden centrepiece for all we know..

supernova1965

13-03-2011, 01:09 AM

I dropped out long ago I was starting to get a headache from those bricks in the wall.

rmcconachy

13-03-2011, 01:14 AM

It depends on how you define the word "computer". As I alluded to above, Charles Babbage built the first known programmable calculating machines in the early/mid 1800s. All known calculating devices predating them were fixed function (including slide rules). Electronic computers came much later. Have a look at <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer> for a reasonable summary of the computer's history.

JohnG

13-03-2011, 01:17 AM

I know a nice man in a white coat who love to talk computers with you.............

AstroGuy

13-03-2011, 01:27 AM

Tell him to get in line. ;)

Regards...

OICURMT

13-03-2011, 01:27 AM

No TV in 1911... 1st broadcast was in the 20's (though the 1st demonstration was in 1911)...

AstroGuy

13-03-2011, 01:30 AM

From what research has been done, they have determined it's some form of Astronomical calendar.

Regards...

OICURMT

13-03-2011, 01:30 AM

One of the most significant inventions that has improved the "Family Unit" is the Airplane.

The ability to get on a place and visit relatives all over the world has dramatically improved "keeping in touch".

The internet is also a winner here, with Video chatting now becoming a major part of my life as I Skype home to my parents back in the USA.

OIC!

Draconis

13-03-2011, 01:45 AM

Not true, if you would care to do even a basic amount of your own research you would find that it is not even clear who built Stonehenge let alone why they built it.

AstroGuy

13-03-2011, 01:46 AM

All computers work on electricity. Even the basic hydrogen atom is a binary quantum computer made from and powered on electricity. As far as fixed function, all computers are "fixed function". Even silicon computers have limited quantities of binary combinations. Only Quantum Computers are pure metaphysical In their design and function, and therefore have no limited function, at least not in your lifetime. :)

Regards...

AstroGuy

13-03-2011, 01:55 AM

mmmmmm.......I don't know. I gues it could have been built for a different reason, even if it just happens to compute some astronomical data. It could be a coincidence. Point taken. Or then again it could have more than one function?

Regards...

marki

13-03-2011, 01:56 AM

Javamundo?????

AstroGuy

13-03-2011, 01:59 AM

It definitely computes astronomical data. I know that much. Whether it was specifically built to do so....can't be sure.

Regards...

Draconis

13-03-2011, 02:01 AM

How do you know? Its a pile of rocks.

rmcconachy

13-03-2011, 02:03 AM

Have it your way Eugenio, I can make no productive reply to that. :)

BTW, regarding that "Ice [that] used to come from the mountains on horse driven carts to the towns", try putting "Victorian Ice Works" or "Sydney Ice Co" into Google and looking at a couple of the links that come up. By the mid 19th century bulk ice was sometimes made in refrigerators (bigger versions of the ones that you wave away as being the same as iceboxes) for sale to people who wanted it. Just as well for the horses who got to avoid some of the mountains. :D

Have fun and clear skies.

AstroGuy

13-03-2011, 02:06 AM

Yeah but try fitting a plane into your house! :lol:

Sorry maybe you did not get my meaning. I am only talking about the household.

Regards...

AstroGuy

13-03-2011, 02:13 AM

Hi rmcconachy,

It's not my fault! :mad2:

It's just the way life works, everything is electrical, even the most basic atom works on electricity. Without electricity it would not function :)

Regards...

AstroGuy

13-03-2011, 02:15 AM

Hardly a pile. It has geometric structure and form.

Draconis

13-03-2011, 02:36 AM

Eugenio,

What has been invented since 1911? Blatant googling here but seems to be more research than you have put in.

How about these inventions, all of which i believe are quite indispensible now and part of the ''household'' and I challenge you to say you havent used most of these at some point.

In order of appearance since 1911..

the bra, the modern zipper, the car radio, nylon, instant freeze dried coffee, ballpoint pen, spray cans, Synthetic rubber, microwave oven, transistor, tuppaware, frisbee, velcro, cake mix, credit card, superglue, barcodes, oral contraceptive, optic fibre, liquid paper, microchip, audio cassette, compact disk, calculator, the ATM, post it notes, viagra and i'm sure many many more

Draconis

13-03-2011, 02:43 AM

So? What does that prove? Is it useful today? Is anybody apart from workshy hippys using it in this day and age? Is there a technical manual inscribed somewhere on it?

Perhaps it was of use at some point but today its a pretty collection of intruguing shaped rocks unless you know one of the original builders of the complex?

AstroGuy

13-03-2011, 02:44 AM

We are talking about the household. The computer is the biggest achievement of man that we have in the household.

"The amount of effort (money and time) invested in computing research as a share of the total amount of research and development across all areas is actually very small."

Yeah, so why are we giving billions of tax dollars to the military so they can develop this stuff? I think a little more than a thin slice of resources etc.. goes into that.

Do you think that because an advanced computer gets designed and built the public is the first to have it?

We are currently operating on technology the military had decades before.

Do you think Intel creates CPU's etc... so they can be fed to the public direct?

They go to military first, then when military has something better, we get the old technology. It's the only way they can stay ahead of the public.
I'm talking technology not secondhand CPU's etc...:lol:

So I think if you really do the math, a very large slice of your tax dollars go to that, where do you think government funding comes from, your tax dollars.

You talk about anti-biotics, people were taking anti-biotics before they were discovered. How many people ate mouldy bread? We already had those things.

You talk talk about the 17th century, I'm only talking about 100 years ago.

Anyway I'm drifting from the subject. Even though your points are valid from your perspective, It's not what I originally posted about.

Please don't think I'm trying to drive you all crazy :screwy:, I'm not. It's easy to see what marvelous things have occurred in the world, I'm just talking about the household! :)

Regards...

AstroGuy

13-03-2011, 03:06 AM

Hi Draconis,

You are still missing the point. The households I'm asking you to compare have to be of the same caliber. Starting with the one from 1911 to the present. Who has an ATM in their household? :) As for microchip etc.. it's all computer. Credit Card is just a piece of plastic for shopping, they had stuff back then you could use to buy stuff on credit with. Most all you mention they had something back then that peformed the exact same function, there is nothing new. Viagra for instance they also had sexual stimulants back then along with almost all you mention.

I do understand what you are saying though.

but still....

Function = Same, only difference is computer.

Regards...

MrB

13-03-2011, 03:56 AM

What do HOUSEHOLD computers get used for 99%(or whatever) of the time?
Communication.

There were obviously other forms of communication in 1911, phone, telegram, mail, newspaper, there is nothing new.

The other 1% (or whatever) of the time... actually calculating.
Sliderule, there is nothing new.

Function = Same, only difference is nothing.

AstroGuy

13-03-2011, 04:19 AM

Finally someone who understands!

THANK YOU! :)

so if Function = same, only difference is nothing.

Why did we have to go through all the pain and suffering just to have the same?

The "computer" is nothing but an illusionary tool we were made to pay with life and suffering, all for the illusion that we were made to think we needed one in our households.

;)

Regards...