A new sketching subforum?

[mental4astro]

Hi all,

The "feedback" forum doesn't get much traffic, so I've started this thread here to gauge the support for a sketching subforum, similar to the subforum "Observational Reports".

My suggestion is to give the sketching threads a dedicated place for easier reference. It is not intended to take away from the Obs. and Visual forum, rather to enhance it. Pretty much like the various imaging forums that currently exist, but just in one spot within the Obs. and Visual Forum.

I'm am hoping to foster a further spirit of participation within this oldest of the "astro imaging" arts.

The recent resurgence in sketching within this site has had a huge impact on the way I'm now involved in this hobby: I've put pencil to paper for the first time in years, its led me to discover a most extraordinary Australian exponent of this art form, and inspired me to write an article on the subject (my first ever article!).

I would love to see a subforum that fosters encouragement, technique discussion, sketching get-togethers, maybe a gallery, Lunar, planetary, Solar, DSO... . The skies the limit.

I really would like your support for this. The imaging boys and girls have their several forums. It would be nice to see the visual affectionados have a little place where they can also showcase their skills and enthusiasm at the eyepiece. A place that will enrich participants, and IIS overall. :)

Mental.

PS, I've altered my original post here as the moderators see this forum as the best place to conduct this call for support.

[barx1963]

Nice idea Alex, although I don't sketch, due to failing stick figures at school, I always enjoy seeing the results of thoes who do. For visual guys, sketching provides a much closer idea of what we see in the eyepiece than imaging.

Malcolm

[mental4astro]

Malcom, I suspect you can write with a pencil, then you might like to look at trying open star clusters- they are nothing more than a series of 'full stops'!

The Jewel box is a nice, tight group to start with! It's a delicious prospect through your scope.

[CraigS]

Hi Alex;

I think its tremendous that you put in all the efforts you do, to promote this art form.

I'd just like to thank you for your enthusiasm, your coaching, and your awesome contributions in this area.

We're all fortunate to have you here.

Good onya !

Cheers
PS: Will copy this post onto the other thread, also. Cheers

[mozzie]

hi alexander
iv'e lost your link

[mental4astro]

Hey Mozzie,

THIS is now the "call to arms" thread. Your support, or not, should now be placed in this thread.

If the support is there, then we'll look at making an application to the mods.

Alex.

[mozzie]

thanks mate
i'm very keen not confident of drawing but i'd love to have a go!!!
iv'e some books with tips on how to sketch i'll have to find them
with my new scope sorted out i'm keen to find some dso's and sketch them

great thread!!!!

[Suzy]

While I think it'll be fantastic to have a sub section dedicated to sketching, I'm concerned that obs reports which include sketches will get broken up too much, i.e. obs report with sketch put in the sketch forum. I think all obs reports should stay in one place. Perhaps a link in the obs report for the sketch in the sketch forum?

Do you plan on putting the accumulated info on sketching tips which is lost somewhere in a thread as a "sticky" so it can be found for quick reference?

Many here already sketch and contribute, there is a thread (somewhere) which was dedicated to sketching tips contributions as well, and seeing all the sketches together will enable us to better learn and get ideas and further enhance our experience at the eyepiece. So I'm all for it, but my concerns above remain, providing they are addressed.

It's about time we visual observers got catered for a bit better. The observation reports sub forum has been pumping with regular activity for quite some time now, which adds weight to the case of further catering requirements. The time has come to service our needs better Mr Moderators please.

I'm not one for too many sub forums as it can be very confusing to navigate, so I think Mike has done one heck of a brilliant job by keeping the menu very tidy and choosing what is justifiably important. However, in this instance, I feel this is a justifiable requirement.
Visual astronomy is a very important contribution.

Oops, forgot to add...
To add further weight to the request, you will see in the poll that's currently running that visual observers are out running the imagers! http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=72590&page=3

[mental4astro]

Hi Susy,

What a great arguement you've presented!

I guess it is all about context.

If a contributor feels their sketch is best served in the Obs Reports section, then why not present it there? That is where it should go. But if all you want is to present a recent sketch, and a dedicated section best serves your context, it would be best served in such a section.

Like you said too, "somewhere" there is a thread on sketching tips. If you had no idea there was a following on the topic, you might believe there is no 'pulse' in the artform here on IIS!

And yes, a dedicated place for those sketching threads too! A sticky area for the "how-to", maybe. But, if the section is already about sketching, finding a how-to thread would be a simpler process.

I agree that too many formal and sub forums can be difficult to navigate (look at the cloudy nights site), and Mike and co. do a great job, but like you, I too feel there is further scope for enriching IIS. The site's recent revamp has seen several new formal forums added. I do believe though, there is room and a rich place for an Astronomical Sketching home. :painting:

[Paddy]

I think its a great idea Alex.

A sub-forum would encourage sketching and as Suzy says could have sticky threads on tips etc to consolidate the knowledge that has been forthcoming. Sticky threads sound a little arachnid...

[michaellxv]

Gets the thumbs up from me Alex :thumbsup:.

It gathers all the sketches in one place for future review and inspiration.
It would be an appropriate place for stickies on sketching.
It could even attract new IIS members interested in sketching.
Hey, someone might even get their sketch as IOTW someday :), lets take over this forum :wink2::rofl:

[glenc]

Alex, you have my support for this forum.

[iceman]

Great to see the support the idea is receiving.

My only concerns are:

1. Dilution of threads across several forums.

There is a core group of people that contribute greatly to the observation reports forum, and some of those with sketches. I guess my concern (like Suzy said) is that threads might get split between the two, or we end up with duplicates as people put them in both (because they contain a report and a sketch), etc.

The number of people who post sketches is still quite small so there's always a concern that the new forum sits idle and empty with no new contributions. I'm pretty sure with Alex's involvement that's unlikely to happen, though.

2. Controlling the number of sub-forums

Like both Suzy and Alex have stated, I definitely don't want a huge number of sub-forums. Too many make it hard to navigate, dilute the content across many sub-forums and makes it harder for people to find the information they're looking for, people get confused about where to post new threads etc.


These concerns are not specific to a sketching sub-forum - it's just part of the criteria I evaluate when looking to add ANY new sub-forum.


Having said that, even niche areas of amateur astronomy (like sketching) deserve a home (like radio astronomy) and sometimes a sub-forum might help to increase the take-up or contributions. This hasn't always happened (like radio astronomy), but the potential is always there.

I'll give this thread a few more days to see what other support or discussions it generates, and then I'll let you guys know.

Cheers

[Rob_K]

Well, I'm going to be a naysayer. Most of the sketches we see are posted as adjuncts to obs reports and belong there. If you're sketching as an artform, post it in the imaging sections. That's where they have appeared in the past.

I'm against the on-going splintering of the forum. The 'beginners' sections drive me mad, duplicating other sections of the forum on an arbitrary and ill-defined basis, to the point where I don't bother going there any more. The major prob with these sections is that they drive a wedge between sections of the astro community, and require participants to make a ridiculous judgement as to when they are no longer a 'newbie' (another term that drives me absolutely troppo!). Would there be a beginners sketching sub-sub-forum for those starting out? :P

Keep it simple - just my opinions. :thumbsup:

Cheers -

[astroron]

I have held off replying to this thread till now to see where it will go:question:
I am not in favour as I see it as another fragmentation of the observation and visual forum.
When we got a separate Observers report within the visual and observers thread I think less people actually logged into it.
It is only the same probably ten visual observers who are regularly posting and I cannot see any benefit in another thread:shrug:
By all means Highlight the benefits of sketching but keep the forum as a whole not bits and pieces, as sketching is to me just another part of what you wish to do with your observing time.
Cheers

[iceman]

Good points, Rob. Thanks for your input.


This is true - there have been several astronomy sketches in the solar system or deep space imaging forums.


A valid point, and I don't like splintering forums either.
However sometimes it can be very daunting for a beginner to 'enter into' the world of the 'experts' and don't feel comfortable posting their images in the deep space section (for example).
The beginners imaging forum was to allow them to feel comfortable posting there.

I don't necessarily agree that it drives a wedge between the newbies and the 'experienced'. There's no graduation between newbie and 'experienced' - when they feel comfortable they'll post in the other 'non-beginner' sections.

[pgc hunter]

Not a bad idea in theory but IMO only useful for showing off your sketches from obs sessions in the past, from your "archives" so to speak, (not from last nights session for example) as the one issue I see is it might result in duplicate posts and/or fragmented obs reports as people might end up posting the same material both in the obs section and sketch section or seperate their sketches from their reports. This happens on CN often which has both an obs and sketch section. Not only will it potentially fragment the forum, but also create some amount of confusion/inconvenience as posters will post the report in one section and the associated sketches in another section. Generally the obs section as it is provides a good medium for people to post their sketches with their reports in one post that will be seen and appreciated by those interested. The current arrangement IMO is pretty streamlined and works well.

Maybe one idea is making a sticky thread in the obs section entitled "sketches" where people can post their work if they wish and showcase the sketching talent of folks here without fragmentation of the forums or having to navigate through individual threads.

[Rob_K]

Good points Mike and I do see where you're coming from with the beginners section. More power to you for providing it. My 'observation' was purely personal - if I was just starting out in astronomy, I would dodge forums that seemed to be geared towards an 'apprenticeship' before full participation. :thumbsup: But can we somehow get rid of the term newbie? :lol:

Cheers -

[astroron]

I see no need for a separate forum for sketching:shrug:
This heading by Orestis says it all:)
Quote
Obs Report 7/3/11 + double star sketch

Cheers

[mental4astro]

Yes and no. If you post a sketch, of cause you are going to do a write up with it. But how would you know if the thrill of the contributor isn't the sketch, and the report is the adjunct? With the imaging sections, I haven't seen a sketch there since joining IIS. And with the imaging sections being so rampant, sketches would be lost instantly. That is why they have been posted in the Obs. and Visual forums. I'll go out on a limb and say imagers wouldn't call sketching 'true' imaging. Never have, even in the film days.

I've read many of your obs. reports, and while your sketches are adjuncts, wouldn't it be unfair to call everyones so?

You may argue "do a search", well, why have any forums then?

I don't think duplication is really an issue. Why would you fear this happening to the extent of it becoming a problem? Nor dilution.



Then does the idea of a sticky or two appeal to you, rather than a whole new section?

What the intension of my original idea is to give the niche voice of sketching a more visible face. That is why my suggestion of a sub-forum to the Obs. and Visual forum, like the Obs. Reports does. I don't see it as a threat to what currently exists, but to enhance the offering of IIS.




Pretty broad brush with one thread title! Actually, this highlights my point. In this thread of Orestis's, you are saying the report is the main point. Do you know if it was HIS intension or the sketch was. Or are you basing your reply on the way the title was phrased with the report mentioned first. Most thread titles begin with this phrasing. Would your opinion on the thread differ if it was titled:

Double star sketch + Obs report 7/3/11 ?

Below is a thread I've posted with a sketch. I can tell you that the "report" wasn't the focus:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=72408

You want my honest opinion, I don't read all the observational reports that are posted, but I do all those that carry "sketch" in their title, ;) .



Susy mentioned this, and I think it is a worthy option. I agree that the amount of sketching contributions is small, the result is that this material then gets lost within the rest of the forums. The intension here is to give a 'home' to this style of work. Somewhere that can house discussion that doesn't get lost within the masses. Even two stickies, one where how-to and technique discussion can be had, the other like a gallery.

Thank you for your discussion and opinions. I value them. Really I do. That is why I've called for discussion.

[mental4astro]

Here is an example of the sort of things I'm looking to give a home to.

Here are links to two threads which discuss sketching techniques in the three pages of thread titles currently listed. None of them had been started by me, yet they contain the majority of my sketching contributions:

Sketch the moon night:
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=67296

Sketching tips:
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=66309

Given another two months, these threads and their incredible contributions will be shoved across to the archive. Not a place that really cries out "Hey, I'm alive and kicking".

Would the two above be best served with a sticky each rather than as a part of a new sub-forum? They do also serve as a type of gallery too. :thumbsup:

As an added thought, would two stickies, one for DSO's and the other Planetary, be the way to go, somewhat like the imaging gallery? There is a lot of solar work too. ;)

Also, for those fearing duplication and repetition, the first thread listed was made very much as a "gallery" to carry the Lunar contributions rather than a higgledy-piggledy collection of separte threads dotted throught the forums. All in one place!

[Paddy]

The idea of a couple of sticky threads sounds very good to me as a starting point. As Alex says its a good way for the threads to not get lost in the past. It is interesting how people relate observation reports to sketches. I tend to do one or the other in a session or it I do both, to post them separately, which is also how I store them. So it makes sense to me to put them in different threads. And others do it differently.

Anyway, I'd welcome some stickies for sketches - perhaps solar system and DSOs to start with as in the imaging section and one for sketch the moon night. I think the latter works really well. And a "how to"/tips/questions sticky.

[astroron]

Quote
You want my honest opinion, I don't read all the observational reports that are posted, but I do all those that carry "sketch" in their title, ;) .

I could say the same thing in reverse:rolleyes:

Quote
Pretty broad brush with one thread title! Actually, this highlights my point. In this thread of Orestis's, you are saying the report is the main point. Do you know if it was HIS intension or the sketch was. Or are you basing your reply on the way the title was phrased with the report mentioned first. Most thread titles begin with this phrasing. Would your opinion on the thread differ if it was titled:

Double star sketch + Obs report 7/3/11 ?

I certainly would not be going to read the post because it had a sketch of a Double Star,but would go to read the Observing report:)
In the original heading,One would think that the focus of the post was the observation report with the Sketch as maybe a bonus:)

To me Sketching is subjective and if I am to be frankly honest Most do not impress me that much:shrug:
Even though I appreciate the effort in doing it:thumbsup:
And yes I have done some sketching in the past:D
To me I still think it will detract from the main purpose of the observing reports if we fragment the section anymore:rolleyes:
Some of the other ideas mentioned, incorperated into the forum may work;)
Last word :thumbsup:
Cheers

[michaellxv]

Some very interesting points on both sides and I now have one foot back on the fence.

I did some searches of the forums and there are indeed a number of sketches in the various imaging forums. Recently most people posting sketches have done so in the Obs Report forum.

While I agree that further fragmenting the site with another sub-forum may not be desirable the sketches on the site are currently very fragmented.

A search on 'sketch' for the whole site results in 444 threads which include many such as this one which actually contains no sketch. A search on 'draw' gives 500 results, some of which actually contain a drawing. So, to find the sketches you have to go into each forum and do more selective searches. If you limit the search to Titles only you get a higher hit rate but also miss some.

While I still think a sketching sub-forum would be nice maybe some stickies as others have suggested and an informal standard about the way sketches are posted would make them easier to find. This is as simple as putting 'sketch' somewhere in the title which most recent posts already do.

[Lismore Bloke]

Alex the sketching sub-forum sounds like a great idea. As for classifying sketches, if a sketch is accompanied by a written description and complete details - size, class, magnitude, telescope, RA and Dec etc, than it's an Observation Report with the sketch serving as an illustration. If it's a sketch accompanied by no more than basic identifying information, than it's a sketch pure and simple.

Gee the last time I did a sketch, the advice then was to use rub-down dots of various sizes to represent stars neatly- Letraset - remember that stuff?

Good luck with getting it accepted by Mike and the moderators.

[orestis]

Hi everyone:hi:,

A very interesting discusion.In my recent obs reprot I posted the sketch as an extra as I do for all my obs report I do not see a sketch as the main part of my threads rather as a visual representation of what I have seen.A sketch is what it implies a rough drawing of what you see it doesn't have to be a work of art its a visual record of what you have seen and allows others to see what you can see with the equipment you have.

As an astrosketcher myself I enjoy astronomical skethces very much but I have been posting my sketches in the obs reports because in a sticky at the top of the forum it says to post sketches there and I have done so,so if there is a place to post them already whats the use for a new place.

I understand Alex that you are trying to encourage sketching at iceinspace and I am very thankfull for that,its a field of amatuer astronomy which doesn't get much attention,Maybe some stickie threads might be good.

Thanks
cheers Orestis:thumbsup:

[Suzy]

I have a feeling that the "Observation Reports" forum doesn't get the attention it should because it's easy to miss it. Up until I started posting there, I didn't know it existed despite spending plenty of time in the Obs Forum. It is a little, insignificant line up the top, hidden amongst everything else (not that it can be helped of course). It took me quite a while to "remember" that it was there. Nowadays of course I don't need to remember as I practically live there.:lol:

I feel that putting two stickies at the top of the page where the obs reports reside, will draw more attention to us. One sticky for sketches, one sticky for hints and tips. And one very big notice saying "sketches only- NO reports". One day it may warrant a sub forum of its own depending on how much through put it gets.

[ballaratdragons]

I am FULLY in support of sketching as a recognised individual department of Astronomy.

Reading through the above posts we see some good points for both sides about having a sub-section.

May I lend my opinion.
As much as I personally like the idea of a sub-section, I also see the confusion and fractured feel it could give.

I do however, believe 'Astro sketches' would work as a sticky thread of its own in the Observation section.
If not its own sub-section it deserves that at least.

I would love to see a new seperate section for Video Astronomy too, but I am also a realist and know that the popularity just doesn't exist yet.
Maybe one day.

Alex, I support your venture and I will probably contribute from time to time.

[mental4astro]

:fight: :tasdevil: :juggle: :argue: :bashcomp: :poke: :computer:

Crash! Boom! Bash!

I think we are finally finding a consensus on the form of some type of home for sketching should first take.

Stickies!

Now, I agree that sketches and reports are different things. So what ever stickies we end up with, they should be in the main Obs. and Visual forum page. Agreed?

Then how many and their subject matter.

I don't want to complicate things, nor dilute content, or create places for cobwebs to collect. So, my first suggestions:

1: Sketching tips, a place for technique discussion, how-to, materials, new ideas, problems with gear such as lighting, dew, smudge control, etc.

2: Sketch the Moon Night, a place where everything Moon is the focus, regular lunar features become the specified target, Lunar eclipses, even a pretty landscape sketch where the Moon has created some dramatic effect.

The following one is my weakest one-

3: Solar System, sorta explains itself. Planetary sketching isn't all that strong here, though the Sun does get a bit of a bashing.

4: DSO's, the rest of the Universe.

Maybe the last two would be best served as one: Solar System and DSO's?

[iceman]

Sounds good to me. I think combining 3 + 4 would be better for now, until there's enough to warrant separation.

[iceman]

You can go ahead and create the threads as you wish, and then 'report post' and myself or a moderator will make them sticky.

[Paddy]

Three stickies - tips, sketch the moon night and a combined solar system and DSOs thread - gets the tick from me. And a very good discussion to start Alex. Thanks!:thumbsup:

[mental4astro]

Wow!

This has happened faster than I expected!

Three new stickies to give sketching a new "safe" home. :) :painting:

Thanks everyone for their frank and robust discussion. My original idea for a sub-forum was just that- an idea. It needed to be moulded, worked, thought about & reset before it was cast into its best shape!

And thank you Mike for listening and making it so! IIS is your baby, and we so much enjoy your and the mods work in making this site what it is.

Cheers mate! :thumbsup:

Cheers everyone! :thumbsup:

Now, sharpen your pencils. There's paper to ruin!