Beginner dilemma

[Giorgio]

Hi all,

This is my very first post in this website's forum and I guess most beginners I will very much appreciate some help in deciding what equipment to start with.

My goal would be to be able to see nebulaes and galaxies clear enough to be appreciated. In other words, I would like to see something more than just something that my inexpert eye could not discern from a star.

At the moment I can't dedicate more than a couple hundred AU dollars to buy either a telescope or a binocular.

In the last couple of weeks I spent lots of time exploring: ebay and other online offering. At the same time I searched review relatives to the items I thought may meet my goal and in the process refined my understanding of what realistically should I look too to get as close as I can to identify what equipment I should look at.

Said all this, my current understanding, also reading the reviews in this forum, is that I should go for a good binocular, than a telescope. I refined my choice to a Celestron Skymaster binocular, because the attracting warranty offered by the manufacter and because it seems to me they are more reliable than other brands, which offer similar binoculars. I understood, that giant binoculars, are heavy items and implies using some form of support to avoid the problems would arise whithout them and have already several ideas how to build my own custom solution, after having found good inspirations online.

More precisely I'm oriented for either the Skymaster 15x70, or the 20x70 one, if I will buy on the Australian market, or if buying from international sellers, even the 20x80 one, which implied risks keep me from considering it just as a possible alternative, if going for that model, will allow me to get as close as I can to my beginner goal and your advices are not consistently warn me against it.
Between the Australian official Celestron distributors, I found at least 2 that currently offer the 15x75 binos for $180.00 beside similar shipping charges as other sellers). Currently this bino would be my preferred choice, also given positive opinion I read in this forum.

I thanks forward for your expert advices and run to tide up the kitchen before my wife.... You know what I mean...:eyepop:

Giorgio

[Draconis]

Hi Giorgio,

I am a beginner myself, I think you're on the right track with binoculars though. If you have a limited budget and cant stretch to a decent telescope straight away then its better to buy a pair of bino's to get you started and upgrade down the line. I bought a pair of Celestron Skymaster 12x60's a few years back, i think this line is now discontinued though. They are really good, but you will also need to buy a decent tripod too as they are too heavy to hold for extended periods. With my bino's I can see the moons of Jupiter, the Orion Nebula is pretty good and the moon is superb with craters standing out all over.

Dont be tempted to buy a telescope that falls withing the couple of hundred dollar budget you mention, it'll more than likely disappoint you, a decent pair of binoculars won't.

I'm sure a few of the more experienced folks on here can come in and advise you which binoculars are the best value for money but from my very limited experience I think you're on the right track.

I upgraded from my binoculars after a few years and now have a 10" dobsonian mounted telescope.

All the best with it. Just be warned its a very addictive hobby :thumbsup:

Cheers,
Mick

[Giorgio]

Thanks Mick for your feedback. Dobsons are still beyond my budget, but surely there is where I think I will go when I will be ready for the next step.

I did some more online investigations and beside getting overwhelmed by too much information, between reviews and deals, I think I will decide between one of these 3 binoculars.
To explain why I narrowed the choice on them, I added how currently I perceive their pros and cons for each one of them (my use will be for backyard stargazing):

Oberwerk 15x70mm $183.95 USD (postage incl from US)
http://www.bigbinoculars.com/1570.htm
Pros: Best overall quality
Cons: Back to US for warranty in case.

Andrews 15 X 70 $149.00 AUD (postage free)
http://www.andrewscom.com.au/site-section-11.htm
Pros: most affordable, local assistance.
Cons: quality and reliability

Celestron SkyMaster 15x70 $195.50 AUD (postage incl)
http://www.ryda.com.au/Celestron-SkyMaster-15x70-Porro-Binocular-p/71009.htm
Pros: Best Warranty deal, local assistance.
Cons: More expensive

Are there some other points, or I'm missing some one others here?
Thanks to all of you in advance for your input.

Cheers,
Giorgio

[that_guy]

oh, also, if you plan on observing with binos for long period of time, itd be a good idea to invest in a cheap 12 dollar binos to tripod adapter, it makes your viewing a lot more steadier and it'll take the strain off your arms...

cheers
tony

[Giorgio]

That for sure Tony. I'm using a battle proven (kids, etc..) 11 years old Tasco 10x50 binos and use fences, wall, or whatever else i come across that could help me to keep it steady.

To my inexpert eyes it is quite good, but limited in power. In the list below, I just wanted to present the candidate binos I think I should pick from and where I hope from this forum to get either a confirmation and/or precious advices.

Beside I saw on ebay it seems to be easy finding good quality (manfrotto, etc..) used tripods at very good prices , I have a few ideas on my own, inspired by customized solutions shared online by some good fellows:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/63-383-0-0-1-0.html
http://www.aao.gov.au/local/www/sl/sl-tels#bino-mount
http://www.asignobservatory.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=30
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/63-382-0-0-1-0.html

Cheers :astron:
Giorgio

[TimberTown]

Hi Giorgio,
A real handy tool with binos is a lazyboy recliner or deck chair, helps you look up and the arm rests are a great spot to rest the elbows and steady your viewing. Plenty of great bino sights all around the southern cross.
best regards.

[Brian W]

Hi Giorgio, binoculars are a great way to learn the sky and they will show you lots. Plus when you move into a telescope the binoculars will come in vert handy for star hopping.
Brian

[Paddy]

Hi Giorgio and welcome. I have a pair of Celestron 15x70s and I have a great time with them. I find them at their best for open clusters and these can be quite stunning in binoculars. Many are better in binos than telescopes. For most nebulae and all galaxies, you will need a telescope. Well there are a few galaxies you will see but not with detail. Even when you get a telescope you will still get a lot from binos not just for finding things, but they offer a unique perspective with no set up time.

I haven't used the others that you've mentioned so I can't help with comparisons. A tripod will be good with 15x70s but I can get away with hand held up to a point.

[dannat]

can i say having had many pairs of binos the skymasters would be at the bottom of my list...i think you will find the orion & andrews version are very close, possible made in the same factory group - most business import from one of 2 major china wholesalers (which themselves may have multiple factories)

consider this though 0it is difficult to handhold a 15 power bino - to use it to best effect it needs to be tripod mounted. in this case i would either get a tripod or get a 10x or 12x power bino...as these can be handheld. a 10x50 or 12x50-60mm is a great bino - for mst applications - the 15x70 is more specialised ie harder to use for daytime activities like birding/nature

[Brian W]

and if you want the ultimate amateur binocular set up Google JMI 16 inch bino scope. A little out of most of our price ranges but nice to drool over.
Brian

[dannat]

I forgot to add that in this low end price bracket the user unfortunately forms a valuable part of the quality control structure ,in that case better to buy local than have the hassle of shipping a faulty product to the US

[Giorgio]

After gaining a better understanding of my needs, I decided to go for a 25x100 giant binoculars set, than a 15x70.

Now I'm wandering if there are technical differences between the 2 more popular 25x100 binoculars currently on the market branded under several different names and price tags.
Attached to this post are their images, which I hope to get a comment by who may know what eventually these differences are.

:thanx:
Giorgio

[Giorgio]

I'm also designing an alternative way to tripods and/or parallelograms for enjoying big binoculars. The main idea is to apply at least a couple of ergonomics improvements like having the binoculars going around the observer, instead that the other way around. Also there will be a sort of neck/back rest, which will adapt to the observer ones, when she will raise the binoculars height.

I will first develop a simple version, that doesn't require motors or complicated mechanics for handling movements along the axes. But I'm already shaping in my mind the ideas for this more sophisticated version, using the same ergonomic requirements.

Moreover, I aim it being the most inexpensive and light, for portability, I can and using reparable components in place like Bunnings and the like.

If I will be able to implement it, will post here the relative images and design draws (when they will be clear enough to others beside me..:lol:).

cheers
Giorgio

[erick]

Hi Giorgio

I had a set of 30x100 lower end binoculars for 20 months - around the $450 mark - they looked much like these.

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=49104

I never did see the detail in Saturn's rings that I wanted to see, nor the individual stars in the centre of globular clusters - they never had the resolution. Maybe a $2000 set would have? But the views of starfields, open clusters, nebulae were quite lovely.

A couple of comments:-

1. They are big and they are heavy. You will need a very robust alt/azi mount to support these.

2. The field of view is narrow enough to make it quite difficult to locate targets. This is not the simple point and scan a bit that is possible with 10x binoculars. I had to mount a red dot finder on my binocular mount to help me locate objects.

Eric

[Giorgio]

Hi Eric,

This is what I'm looking for, beside that the a $2000 binoculars or other scopes are currently well above my possibilities.

As I haven't experienced yet enjoying the night sky with nothing else than an old 10x50 Tasco binos, not to mention I barely knows where the Orion Nebulae is, I think at the beginning I will just randomly 'flying' around up there randomly, without a real destination (and beyond :lol: ).

I like your custom parallelogram. I reckon creating your own binoculars support, is almost the other half of the fun :)

Thanks for sharing Eric.

[Giorgio]

At a certain point one has to take a stand and look not further. It would just increasing choice confusion.

Hereby I ordered the Zhumell 25x100 Giant Binoculars (http://www.hayneedle.com/optics/astronomy/astronomy-binoculars_tachyon25x100astronomica lbinocularwlockingaluminumcase.cfm) and also found on eBay a "Manfrotto 190XB Tripod & 804RC2 Pan & Tilt Tripod Head" (it can bear the 4.7 kg of this binoculars without problems, but it is tall only 1.5m. On other hand, I count to be comfortably seated when using it).

I spent 3 times the intended amount I budgeted (and I hope to get away with the wife, if she will find it out...) and hope I haven't set my expectation too high out of them.

Can't wait to have them delivered.
Once I tried them, I will report here my first impressions for the benefit of who may be interested in this equipment.

Giorgio :rofl:

[Brian W]

Giorgio you just told the whole web that you went way over budget your wife is going to find out!
Brian

[Stu Ward]

If you spent that much on bin's you could have bought a very nice dob !

[Suzy]

Aye! Aye! Aye! :prey2:

I was just about to post and see Stu and I basically telling you the same thing.

Georgio you could have bought a brand spanking new 6 inch Dob - yes 150cm worth of aperture for around $350 (if that) and you can pick up second hand 8 inch Dobs. around that same amount, often here on the forum in the classifieds section.. I owned a 6" and was awestruck with what it showed me. You could even make out the separation between the rings on Saturn.
If I'd seen your post much earlier, I would have strongly advised you to wait just a little bit longer to get the extra money together. It would have been worth it.

If you change your mind, are you able to back out of the order?:question:

Oh almost forgot, in all the panic..
:welcome: Georgio, very glad to have you on board.

[Giorgio]

Damn it...:help:

I considered to get the dob, but I'm very attracted by the easy to use aspects of binoculars.
My thinking as been, that they, as other suggested, are a good starting point, which doesn't exclude later on a more powerful scope. Maybe a 10" or 12" dob (of course, if I will survive next week) next year.

Thanks for your welcome and all advices are very welcomed.
:thanx:

[EddieDog]

Georgio, Hi from another beginner. If looking to buy from abroad, with our good dollar at the mo. Go to B&H http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/Binoculars/ci/1010/N/4294541827
They tend to be one of the cheapest suppliers I know. I recently bought a Celestron 6SE when in New York. Total cost including shipping was under $1000!. They have a huge range of binoculars. Take a look, and at their scopes.

Eddie

[llm726]

Hi

A word of advice from a noob who has owned a pair of celestron 15x70s.

The plastic tripod adapter is very wobbly. When in use, any bump of the binoculars results in rapid movements, or tremors, that can last up to 15 seconds. I've used araldite to fill the cavities and that has made a dramatic improvement to the stability of the adaptor

[Giorgio]

Hi

I thank you for the last few buying advices, but I actually bought the Zhumell 25x100 binos 5 days ago, as reported here the same day. I received them yesterday and of course I very pleased they were delivered so fast, considering they have been shipped from US.
By luck, yesterday I received a Manfrotto tripod I bought 2nd hand four days ago on eBay, from a Brisbane guy, so not that far from Toowoomba. This tripod was exactly as described, that is mint as a new one.

So, last night I finally used them for my very first star gazing, with something way more powerful than my old Tasco 10x50 binos.

Here my impressions from this first experience with them.
I used them in my backyard which is exposed to some light pollution, even if Toowoomba (QLD), where I live, is way smaller, than all other Australian cities. Moreover, it is located at ~800 mt above sea level.

Last week I searched, for a suitable dark sky location, in a few Km range around Toowoomba and I think I individuated a few. However, I have yet been there at night time to test them.

As far as I can tell, the binos collimation is fine, the exit pupil distance makes it comfortable using them and everything is in focus from edge to edge. If there is color aberration, or other lens defects, I didn't see any. However maybe because I'm color blind and my lack of optics technical knowledge may not allowed me from recognizing any, in case they were there. The only problems I found are: it is not straightforward to focus targets (both terrestrial and astronomic uses) and the mount adapter even when strongly screwed in, doesn't completely block the binos to the tripod mount and even left right inclination on its own central support (that is the aluminum bar that run in the middle between eye pieces and lens.

I firstly pointed the binos to the Orion Nebulae and sadly felt some disappointment. :( I was expecting to see the nebuale more close than what I was observing. The binos could resolve the 3 main stars inside it and displayed some cloudish, but not dramatically more than I was already observing with my 10x50binos.
Of course this has nothing to do with the binos quality, but my inexperience with anything bigger than my old binos. So I'm not winging about it. :shrug: I know, several of you, unfortunately after I ordered the binos, highlighted that with the same amount I may have bought a decent second hand dobs for sale here in the IceSpace marketplace. But I don't regret my decision. I'm attracted by the lack of maintenance and easy to grab and use giant binos own. Moreover I have 2 teenager girls, who aren't attracted from too technical equipment in general.
I looked around in Orion for other nebulae, as I understand there several and one in particular (can't remind its name right now), featuring a horsehead like shape, not that far South East from the Orion one, but couldn't find it. Not sure if this has to do to with this binos magnification up limit and or my inexperience or whatever else.

Then I pointed it to the Crux and here I was amazed from the density of stars around there. Although currently I have no idea what exactly I was admiring, I can tell having observed several star clusters (at least I believe they were star clusters based on the pictures I saw from many sources). Happy again, from there I start to randomly navigate around the Milky way and I believe I also saw a few Nebulae, although again I have no idea what they could be. Moreover, I liked the feeling of being up there this binos have given me.

At this point however, I sadly started to realize this tripod was not suitable at all for astronomical use. It is surely perfect for terrestrial observation, but definitely it is not suited for observing targets above say 30 or more degrees above the horizon. Above this threshold, it becomes very uncomfortable and shaky. It is rated to support up to 5 Kg (the head actually 4), which clearly is not enough for the binos 4.7 Kg.
Moreover trying to use it while seating makes it even more difficult to enjoy the show. At least this is true for me and I believe I will find the same problems with any tripods. They just aren't intrinsically tailored for being used by a comfortable seating. I decided my only alternative is going on with the projected ergonomic revolutionary seat design... :lol: :question: :screwy:

In conclusion, I learned that even a 25x100 binos is not not that powerful as one may expect, based on the many reviews available online and not limited to this specific binos brand.
However, I'm happy with my Zhumell giant binos, because once I realized what to actually expect from it, it delivers.
Moreover, I was quite worried about problems, that could arise due the risk of receiving a binos affected by manufacturing defects and or to the shipping from US to Australia. However, maybe I have been just lucky, but it doesn't show any problems at all (so far :D) .
As far as I can tell, the lens quality is very good and considering they cost me 320 AUDs including shipping (they are 229 USDs without it), I'm satisfied with this buying.

I Hope this report may be helpful to other beginners as my self. If I will find others facts about it, I will updated this thread in the future. I was wandering if I should have post this report in the Equipment reviews, but it due to my lack of optics technical knowledge, this not be the case.

Finally, English is not my first language (I'm Italian) and I hope my writing is clear enough for you.

Cheers,
Giorgio

[Stu Ward]

Nice report giorgio. Unfortunately you will not be able to see great nebula detail with bino's. More magnification is required. You are currently magnifying by x25. You will require around x50 to see any great detail, and unfortunately the horsehead nebula is well out of your reach and requires much more light gathering to even image it.


Good luck with the binos I'm sure that if you just recline in an easy chair they will give you many hours of enjoyment.

Oh and your English is great !
Certainly better than my Italian !!!!

[Brian W]

Giorgio, sounds like you had fun. Part of my enjoyment is finding out how to make the most out of what I have. Maybe a reclining chair such as one would find at the beach would help out?
Brian

[Suzy]

Hi Georgio,

Let's see If can help you a bit more on your journey of fabulous discovery - our gorgeous southern night sky.

To get you started, I recommend this book "Heaven's Above" and a planesphere - Bintel sell both. I find a planesphere invaluable in learning the constellations (as the night progresses and the constellations take on some strange shapes sometimes, it really does help in identifying them).
Here is the link for Bintel: http://www.bintelshop.com.au/welcome.htm
For the book, look under "books" on the menu on the left hand side of the screen, and for the planesphere, look under "Planespheres" (same again, on the left).
Many of us (myself included) buy from Bintel, they offer great service and quick too.

To get an idea of what objects are out there and what you can see, have a read of a couple of threads I did covering binocular observing.

"A Night With Binoculars" ....
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=69321

"Binocular & Telescope Observations Feb. 2011" ...
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=71992

Also another link here with a nice little list to get you started on:
http://www.lightandmatter.com/binosky/binosky.html
Download the software "Stellarium" - it's free and will be a great source of help to you. There is also a star chart inside each issue of Australian Sky & Telescope magazine (available at newsagents). In particular, Les D. has a monthly column dedicated to binocular observing, giving a showpieces to look at every month.

Importantly, make sure your eyes are dark adapted (15min is good, 30 mins is better). You can put this to the test simply by just sitting out there under the stars while you study where the brightest stars are and their names. Have a look around (especially in the Carina/Crux area) before hand, then take a look in 30 mins - you'll see a difference as they're will be more for you to look at. The very dim stars will now appear brighter, The Carina nebula now gets your attention (in particular, averted vision will make it jump out at you). All this, just with your naked eye. Then carry on with your observing session.

One very easy target to find is the Jewell Box (NGC 4755) which sits in the constellation Crux (or Southern Cross). Just under Beta Crucix (the star at the bottom on the left hand side of the cross) sits a very beautiful star cluster.
And, you haven't lived until you've seen Omega Centauri (NGC 5139) Globular Cluster (the largest and brightest of them all- we are honoured to have it to ourselves in our southern skies). It's sits in the constellation of Centaurus.

Here is a map for Centaurus and Crux.
http://www.stargazing.net/david/constel/constel/centaurus.html

An easy way (the way I use anyway) to find Omega Centauri is this...
Line up Beta Crucis with Epsillon Centauri, jump to the star next to it (Zeta Centauri). From Zeta go straight up 4 degrees (about the width of three fingers held out at arms length with one eye shut), and voila! Enjoy. Don't faint!

Regarding the Horse Head Nebula in Orion- if you find it in your binos I will give you $100, a kiss on the cheek and send you a cake everyweek for the rest of my life.

I invite you to come and join us in the observing forum and post some reports using your binoculars. I would love to have a fellow binocular observer post some reports in there. Nothing to even stop you using your last post here as your report. Just time & date it and list your equipment at the top of the page.
The Observation Forum is a great place to learn, get encouragement and support. The small group of people we have there will welcome you with open arms i'm very sure as they are truly wonderful people. To learn and get better is to be amongst the same people trying to achieve the same thing, so please, do join us.

Congratulations and all the best with your new binoculars, Georgio.

[dannat]

The manfrotto with pan tilt would not have been my choice, a fluid head is much easier to use, bhphoto in NY has the Davis & Sanford for 100 which can carry about 6kg, it's rated for 8.
For objects goto sky maps.com & download the sth chartvfor this month. They have a list of naked eye & small telescope objects suitable for bins.

[kitsuna]

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl ::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Literally in stiches.

edit:

by the way, I've found a CN article which indicates that it's possible. 15x70 binocs might actually be able to do it...

http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=2594

[Giorgio]

I'm overwhelmed by so many advices! One doesn't know from where to start :lol:

This evening I implemented version 0.0.0.0.1 of my star gazing armchair and I'm very proud of the result. After considering many ideas, I think I was able to do it applying the KISS principle.

While looking on eBay for a both directions cheap winch, I came across with a tool called Spring Balancer. It is used where workers have to use heavy tools and it remove the weight out of them by a smart use of springs.
What you need to do, is set one of them above you and hang the binoculars to it. It works kinda of smart elastic, at least those I bought from "TotalTools" (a sort of slightly more specialized Bunnings for hardware tools). Spring Balancers benefit over elastics, is that you can modify the spring tension, while with elastics you can't, unless you replace them with another set. I spent $78, as I'm a bit impulsive I guess, but on ebay I saw similar ones for around $20. I bought 2 of them because they have had only the 1.5 to 3 KGs model and at the end of the day with 2, if one of them fails, you have some redundancy safety measure in place.
Now I can comfortably sit and pointing the binos in many directions, with minimum need to move the head, because now it is the binocular moving toward the direction I pick, instead that the other way around. There is some shaking, but way less than that I have experienced with my tripod (which although being a Manfrotto and nominally supporting 5 KGs, it clearly is not adequate for astronomic use with a 4.7 Kg binos).
Next steps are, to make it portable by creating some sort of aluminum structure to provide the hanging point above my camping armchair (well the armchair will not be set exactly below this hanging point. Just a bit forward so to allow me be able pointing the binos also to the zenith).
After that, I'm going to replace the spring balancer with an electric winch (depending on your ebay buyer skills you can get one for even less than $40 featuring also remote controls. If you wandering why I didn't go straight for it, please don't ask... ).

I will post pictures of my progresses asap, in case you may be interested in this solution.

Cheers
Giorgio

PS
Does it count if I will stick a picture of the Horse Head Nebula to a tree say 30mt far and I will observe it with my binos?
;)

[Sylvain]

It certainly sounds like an interesting journey, keep us posted :)

[Suzy]

:lol::lol::lol:

Nope! :poke:

Would love to see the pics of what you have made Georgio! :D

[Giorgio]

It took me a while to post pics of my mount solution for my heavy Zhumell binos. Didn't I? :D

Here they are finally!

As you can see, even my kids can use this big binoculars. While an office chair doesn't offer a good support for the back when you target objects at the zenith and surrounding, it allows to rotate keeping the binos in front of you.

Pity I now decided to sale the binos for financing an at least 10" dob. It took me a while to understand what equipment I really need and once more I want to thank all IIS members who helped me along this learning path. :thanx:

Giorgio

[Suzy]

Oh my gosh Giorgio, they are huge binos!!! :eyepop::lol:
I like how you've hooked them up and your kids seems to be having so much fun with them. :)

I know we tried to convince you to go the dob before you bought the binos, but at the end of the day, you seemed to be having a lot of fun with them all the same. Think of it as a learning curve.. it's often hard to get things right the first time around. We have to start somewhere to know where we want to go. I consider that an important journey of learning. What your binos have taught you is there is more for you out there that you want to explore and you are more confident now of what it is you want. Aye, that's a good thing. ;) And has brought you much joy as well.;)

I started out with a 6" scope and never dreamed when I got them I'd be upgrading within 6 months. Astronomy had me well and truly hooked in. But I too had to start somewhere.

Thank you for taking the time to take the photos and updating us, much appreciated. :)

So... when is this 10" dob purchase planned??? :D

[Giorgio]

Thanks for your kind words Suzy. I would add them that the journey is at least half of the fun. At least this one has been so for me :).

The kids have been enthusiastic of observing Saturn from our backyard! The only problem now is that they are using it as a new excuse for trying stay up till late...:sadeyes:

Ha! The 10" or maybe a 12" dob will have to wait a bit, but surely will come (with the kids support ;)).