View Full Version here: : Birds homebrew 13.1" newtonian (merged)
iceman
23-01-2006, 07:23 AM
Anthony,
I read in Matt's thread that it's raedy and finished!?
Tell us about it! Show us a pic!
Which scope are you bringing to Lostock?
davidpretorius
23-01-2006, 07:41 AM
yes, he has us hanging on with baited breath's......................
yes daves breath smells of prawns....
come on anthony, show us ur scope! :D
:-)
Well I got a phone call from Mark on Thursday saying that the mirror was polished and going to be coated on Friday, so I drove up to Sydney and collected it Friday evening. Because I didn't know what the exact focal length was going to be I hadn't yet built the top end of the scope or drilled holes for the focusser etc. I spent the weekend working on it and got it assembled enough to test last night.
I was worried about a few things - this scope is a real monster and I thought it might be too heavy for the mount. Well I need not have worried - it's actually *more* stable on the mount than my old 10"... the extra weight is having more damping effect.
Also didn't know if I had enough counterweights, but with the extra one I bought from Mick it works out nicely.
I have more things to sort out today, and a few more holes to drill. Whether or not it comes to Lostock now depends on *if* I can fit it in my car with all my other gear. That's going to be very interesting...
Bird
rumples riot
23-01-2006, 04:56 PM
Nice, just remember the 6 week hoodoo. Might not be advisable to take the new scope. I am sure you are veery pleased with the new scope and I for one look forward to seeing it's performance. Congrats Anthony.
Well, I spent all today working on the scope, finishing off the remaining items. Centre spotted the mirror, added the finderscope and top-end counterweights etc. Played with the collimation for an hour or so this afternoon to get a feel for it, it's nothing like any scope I've ever used before. It's a real "no tools" collimation, everything can be adjusted by hand, all the adjustment points (including secondary) are on the outside of the tube.
I've definitely got to get a set of shorter legs for the G-11, lifting this tube onto the current height is going to kill me. According to the bathroom scales the top tube section is 8kg and the bottom is 15kg, so it's 23kg assembled. I think I'll have to start lifting weights or I'll end up doing myself an injury :-)
Bird
Bird
Be a nice chap and post some pics?? Mmmmm? Mmmmm?
I'm dying to see this "no tools" collimation set up.:)
rumples riot
23-01-2006, 06:53 PM
Yes am intrigued by all this.
Ok, here be pics:
http://www.acquerra.com.au/astro/equipment/13/
Bird
davidpretorius
23-01-2006, 07:42 PM
mike, you must relax the swear rule for this post. that is ........awesome bird!!!
wow
wow
i will bring barricade tape to snake valley to keep the little kids (including myself) from wanting to touch it!!!!
have i said wow???
As some of you know I've been working on building a new scope for the last 6 months or so. The optics are high quality (i.e. not done by me) but all of the design and most of the metalwork is mine.
The design is quite different to anything you may have seen before, I wanted to solve a lot of usability issues in my old scope and so spent time thinking about how to solve these things in the design of the new one.
The things I wanted:
- no tools collimation, and *easy* adjustments on secondary
and primary.
- Integrated temperature controlled mirror mount.
- Lots of other small things.
I only finished the scope today, here's a page with some pictures:
http://www.acquerra.com.au/astro/equipment/13/
regards, Bird
anthony2302749
23-01-2006, 07:49 PM
One very impressive scope !!!!!!!:eyepop:
Oh man!!!:scared:
You have to lay your hands on a highly polished silver lady and attach it somewhere to that coz that is one out-of-control Rolls Royce of a scope:lol:
davidpretorius
23-01-2006, 08:01 PM
jdn adsafff
haviinf trouble tiping......still piking myself off the floor after doing a woohoo and tripping over the coffee table!
i need to buy some temp paste and i will have my mini bird cooler finished
Striker
23-01-2006, 08:05 PM
Wow...that looks awesome Anthony...you have to bring it to Lostock....if it doesn't fit in the car buy a bigger car.
stringscope
23-01-2006, 08:14 PM
Magnificent Anthony!!! Wow! ............ I mean WOW!!
Are you planning to show this off at a CAS DSN?
I suspect you wouldn't want to go all that much bigger on that G11.
Cheers,
Astroman
23-01-2006, 08:37 PM
WOW work of art alright thats just brilliant, love the design too. That mirror looks great
acropolite
23-01-2006, 08:41 PM
Split tube too, way to go..
Starkler
23-01-2006, 08:41 PM
Looks awesome Anthony !
I imagined that an advantage in choosing the conical mirror would be enabling direct thermal coupling between the cold plate and the main mass of the mirror. You mention it is attached with silicone sealant which would act as an insulator.
How are you cooling the mirror with the cold plate? Did I miss something?
netwolf
23-01-2006, 08:46 PM
Hi Bird,
Just one word "WoW" and i cant wait to see what you photograph with this beauty. Eat your heart out GSO..
How much does it weigh? and how stable is it on the G11?
Can you provide a cost for this project. Would any of the partys involved in its creation consider manufacturing more.
Regards
iceman
23-01-2006, 09:10 PM
Stunning!
Are you bring the 10" just incase the 13" doesn't work when you make it to Lostock? :)
rumples riot
23-01-2006, 09:17 PM
Great looking scope there Anthony, however. You do know that pulling your socks up is now no longer cool?
Seriously great scope
davidpretorius
23-01-2006, 09:23 PM
happy 2500 coming up rumples.
i was just about to post bird my sandals, but as they are constantly with my soscks then i ithought they better stay!
what do you mean it is out of fashion???
Starkler
23-01-2006, 09:40 PM
There were two separate threads about the same scope. These are now merged so we can all ooo and ahhh together :)
davidpretorius
23-01-2006, 09:43 PM
i believe that the cold plate produces cold air and then that gets blown around the mirror. this mirror allows for better cold air flow????
danielsun
23-01-2006, 10:05 PM
WOW!!!! Bird thats a monster!!! Well done and i cant wait to see it in the flesh at Snake Valley and the images this gem will produce!!!
You will bring it to Snake valley wont you?
The cooling is done indirectly - the cold plate cools the air and the three mini fans under the mirror circulate the cold air. That way I don't have to worry about different thermal expansion/contraction of material that's touching the mirror, the silicone is nice and rubbery and lets the cold plate contract without putting any stress on the mirror.
Tonight I'm testing the cooling, and it cools very very fast, much faster than my old mirror. The conical will help with that, but also the new cooler has 3 peltiers compared to 2 in the old one, so there's more horsepower available.
regards, Bird
Scope weight is 23kg, up from 15kg for my previous 10".
It seems very stable on the G-11, but I have to pay close attention to balancing it properly.
Regarding manufacture of these for other people, I had this in the back of my mind when I was designing the scope, I've spoken to both Mark and Gary speculatively about doing something, problem is that I'm fully committed workwise on another project.
Anyhow I'm going to see how it performs this season and then think about what might be possible. The cooling unit + mirror cell and conical mirror might be a good place to start :-)
Costwise, the 13.1" conical cost $2500, the tube was about $400, parts cost for the cooler and mirror cell about $100, Discovery 2.6" secondary about $150 (or whatever bintel charge, can't remember), and then there's probably another $200 in nuts, bolts, aluminium tube, aluminium bars etc etc.
Not to mention about 3 weekends of full time workshop time :-)
regards, Bird
If it fits in the car :-) I'm doing a test pack tomorrow afternoon. That's the last place where something really nasty can go wrong...
Bird
G'day Ian, fancy seeing you here... I've been so focussed on getting it ready for Lostock that I havn't thought past the end of this week... if there's some interest at CAS then I'm happy to arrange something.
regards, Bird
gaa_ian
23-01-2006, 10:49 PM
That is one cool (pardon the pun) scope Bird, I'm sure we can look forward to many wonderful images !
Thiink
24-01-2006, 10:36 AM
.... :scared2:
Keep your pets locked up, that thing looks hungry. Very impressing looks piece of equipment. I bet you are happy. Now to wait and see what it is capable of! ;)
janoskiss
24-01-2006, 11:37 AM
Congratulations, Bird! Can you please tell us more about the "no tools" collimation setup? How does it work? ... and what's the focal length of the mirror?
Steve, the focal length is 1810mm. When I said "no tools collimation" I guess I meant "no screwdrivers, spanners etc required", but you still need to have something to go in the focusser - a cheshire, barlowed laser and/or autocollimator eyepiece would be my pick, just as you might need for collimation on any other scope.
All aspects of the secondary can be adjusted by hand while standing looking into the focusser. The 3 vanes on the spider come through the tube and are attached to a metal ring that rotates around the outside of the tube. This ring can be rotated by hand, and each of the vanes can be moved up and down in a slot allowing for the secondary to be tilted.
If you have a look at the images (linked to above) then you might be able to imagine how this works. If you're coming to Lostock then you can see it first hand :-)
I tested the cooling last night, and I'm happy with the results. Here's a graph that shows how the mirror temperature (red line) changed over time with the cooling in various settings - OFF, 100%, 75% and 50%. It looks nice and predictable.
regards, Bird
Striker
24-01-2006, 06:53 PM
Why dont these guys get together and build the entire scope....I know for (1) I would defintely be intersted in say a 10" F4 but I would never attempt to build it myself...they say it's easy but when your spending thousands I dont have the knowledge or confidence to DIY.....maybe a basic $500 scope I may have a go at as a hobby but not thousands....too risky.
I would consider 1 if you could purchase as a whole unit.
I could only imagine this would increase sales 10 fold if they got together to supply this service....I know Mark doesn't build scope's just mirrors....but how about a bit of a partnership with a scope maker.
Great scope Anthony.
iceman
24-01-2006, 06:58 PM
Awesome Anthony.. I honestly cannot wait to see it working at Lostock, and I can't wait to see some images from it! The increased image scale will be awesome.
davidpretorius
24-01-2006, 07:13 PM
mickpinner has a guy for aluminium tube, i have talked to mark re mirrors, mick is looking at finders and focussers etc. I have made a peltier cooling system out of aluminium bought from bunnings etc. I believe that mick has the potential to put it all together if demand is there???
janoskiss
24-01-2006, 07:15 PM
Striker, the way I see it that you get to be one of the best at something by specialising. The best mirror makers don't make complete telescopes for the same reason that the best engine builders don't make cars.
davidpretorius
24-01-2006, 07:15 PM
great cooling rate, computer controlled and more time for imaging.
control those variables!!!
well done!
Striker
24-01-2006, 07:34 PM
Yes Steve but you can buy a car with the engine of your choice....not everyone is a mechanic.
All I am saying is wouldn't it be great if you could purchase a scope to your specs instead of purchasing different parts of multiple suppliers then try to fine someone to put it all together.
Like I said..if I could purchase one complete I would buy 1.....if I cant I wont....and I'm sure their are other members here feal the same way about attempting to build a $3000 DIY scope.
He doesn't have to go into buisness with anyone...even a contact who can do the whole job whilst using Mark's mirrors.......sounds too simple to me.
iceman
24-01-2006, 07:38 PM
It sounds like a workable plan Tony, it just means the cost will increase as the "middle man" (the person putting it together) does all the legwork, sets up the "business", sets up a website (?), gets the parts made, assembles it all and then ships it.
Would still be a very very nice custom built newt with high quality mirrors and high quality parts. For imaging, it looks great. For visual, you'd probably be better off getting a truss obsession or something.
I can see Bird's monster taking up a lot of space in the car.. no wonder his tube is in 2 parts.
Striker
24-01-2006, 07:56 PM
Thats fine....you expect to pay for the service..
Would love to see it in action at Lostock Anthony.
Come on bring it.
Orion
24-01-2006, 08:01 PM
Congratulations on a job well done, it must be very satisfying looking at the finished product.
I hope the telescope works better than you expected.
Well by some miracle it all fits in the car - albeit with a few tricks like packing stuff inside the empty tube, removing the floormat to gain extra height etc.
Will be leaving around 6.30am tomorrow morning, see you all at Lostock!!
Bird
re: building high quality scopes commercially, it's something that I'd love to look into, but I think I already know the answer - the small(ish) australian marketplace for these items would make it very hard to break even, let alone make it worthwhile financially.
But I've not given up on the idea, first things first - lets wait and see how this design goes in practice. Those of you coming to Lostock will be amused by me still building & tweaking the scope while it's in use. I've already thought of a few small changes I want to make and I'm bringing my toolbox :-)
Bird
i hope none of this has impacted on your coriander anthony.... still growing well?
cant get on to your site to see the scope pics :(
sounds great tho
I'm with you Tony.
It'd be great to be able to get something like this scope or even Bird's 10", complete with cooling system, all custom made and put together for you.
I'd grab one in a heartbeat. Be happy to wait 6 months or more for it to be made:)
ausastronomer
25-01-2006, 05:36 PM
Bird,
Beautiful piece of gear. Gotta be proud of that. With one of Mark's superb mirrors that should be an absolutely outstanding scope, photographically and visually.
Glad to hear it fits in the car and can't wait to see it (and through it) at Lostock.
CS-John B
PS: Do I need to train you to get the camera outta the focuser so I can get an eyepiece in it ? :)
BTW: What are the plans for the old 10" scope ?
There ought to be an opportunity for visual use, but I can't fit my stepladder in the car so you'll be balancing on a plastic milk crate :)
Bird
Satchmo
25-01-2006, 08:16 PM
Just a note there after talking to Anthony , that its quite certain the mirror figure will be quite distorted for visual use( more so than if there were a natural air/mirror differential) while in a strong peltier cooling phase, particularly as the mirror has a 65mm cooled plug up its middle . :cold: .... so don't be too eager :)
Mark
Depending on the ambient conditions, and how quickly this new mirror recovers after I switch off the cooling (both unknown quantities) it should be possible to arrange a period of a couple of hours where the scope can be used visually before saturn gets close to transit at midnight.
Then there's the long wait for Jupiter to get to the zenith just before dawn... again probably a window of opportunity to use the scope for a couple of hours before the cooling is switched back on and the scope goes back to a purely photographic instrument.
regards, Bird
Satchmo
25-01-2006, 09:36 PM
Sounds like a good plan. Wishing you some clear steady skies !
Mark
ausastronomer
25-01-2006, 11:56 PM
Mark/Anthony
I am a little confused here :help3: , If the mirror is distorted by the cooling effect, is not its "out of figure" state the same for visual and photographic purposes ? Or are there other factors involved here as well ?
CS-John B
Satchmo
26-01-2006, 08:21 AM
John
Yes, they are one and the same . I was simply warning that the visual views may be quite poor during the forced Peltier cooling phase ( more so than a natural cooldown). I new that Anthony would no doubt be busy imaging once the system was at optimal temperature, but looks like he anticipates a few windows of opportunity for visual observation.
Mark
When the cooling is operating the scope is not suitable for use - either visual or photographic. I try to make sure that the cooling is switched off and the mirror allowed to sit and equalise for about half an hour before I try to use it, that's normally enough time for the mirror figure to return to its normal shape.
Bird
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