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John Hothersall
26-01-2011, 08:30 PM
SPX350 F30.6, Flea3, Astrodon filters.

At last seeing was lovely with Cassini div visible all the way round and fine banding with a hint of Encke div in the r rgb - this compensated from lack of storm. Felt I should have used a longer fl then seeing deteriorated before improving again. Cloud kept intervening moving in 2 directions and one direction seemed to produced the bad seeing which improved quickly. Seem to be getting a run of clear nights with good seeing. Also tried a gif animation of red channel, should really try an rgb animation but don't have time with deep space imaging first part of the night.

Thanks, John

Heath
26-01-2011, 08:56 PM
Great pics John,

Particularly like the third. Moon transit looks amazing

Quark
26-01-2011, 09:24 PM
Superb images John, seeing is king and your certainly had very good seeing. So much detail, within the rings themselves and also with the storm clouds which now encircle the planet.

Very nice job with your processing also although data this good really does require very little. Congratulations on a top all round result.

Regards
Trevor

Paul Haese
26-01-2011, 10:29 PM
Man in the animation you have spokes on the left hand part of the rings. I don't think any amateur has ever picked that up before. You can see the spokes moving in the animation.

Beautiful images.

ngcles
26-01-2011, 10:59 PM
Hi All,



Agree Paul -- I am almost certain they are too. Excellent!


Best,

Les D

kinetic
26-01-2011, 11:16 PM
Amazing results John.

Steve

astroron
26-01-2011, 11:37 PM
Great capture John
Well done :thumbsup:
Cheers

John Hothersall
27-01-2011, 12:19 AM
Thanks guys, may get another chance tonight?

The gif animation was way too fast but I have managed to slow it down now and have posted it along with the other for a better view.

Images were from 1707-1850hrs UT every 25-30mins as cloud was sometimes in the way.

Thanks, John.

iceman
27-01-2011, 07:54 AM
Incredibly sharp, excellent colours. Well done John!

SkyViking
27-01-2011, 07:55 AM
Amazing shots, and as others said you most likely captured some of the famous 'spokes' on the rings themselves (left side). They are clearly visible in the animation!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rings_of_Saturn#Spokes

As far as I know this phenomenon has only ever been photographed from the Voyager and Cassini probes:eyepop:

Shiraz
27-01-2011, 08:20 AM
Top shelf John. Agree with others - Encke plus spokes as well - that's really impressive.

iceman
27-01-2011, 08:26 AM
I'd be interested to hear what Anthony thinks about the 'spokes'. To be honest, I doubt very very much whether it would be even remotely possible to capture them from Earth, especially at that focal length.

I see the 'marks' on the rings in the animation too, but it could be dust motes, or something else. Even Damian Peach's or Anthony's best images never show a hint of the spokes captured by space craft which are a hell of a lot closer to the planet than we are.

The encke division is certainly possible, but it's also easy to 'simulate' the encke gap by over-sharpening.

Not taking anything away from John's beautiful image.

Shiraz
27-01-2011, 09:04 AM
Hi Mike. I'm no expert, but John's animation looks remarkably like this one http://pds-rings.seti.org/saturn/animations/saturn_spoke.mov

It looks like the spokes can extend across much of the B ring with fairly high contrast under the right conditions, so they could possibly be visible from earth - it's quite stunning if John did image them. Be good if others could try to image the same effect.

Paul Haese
27-01-2011, 09:46 AM
Yes Ray, this was the footage that I was thinking of when I made the statement. No offence to Anthony or Damian but just because they have never picked them up before does not mean the spokes cannot be captured. We (planetary imagers) already work well beyond many defined limits of physics capturing detail.

Enke capture is real and most often not now simulated Mike. When people were using toucam's this could well have been the case but all the new equipment has allowed great definition. This image from John is very sharp and one can see the planet through the rings. I have only seen this once when imaging Saturn and the seeing was exceptional. I would suggest this is real.

Paul Haese
27-01-2011, 09:50 AM
BTW these spots are visible on Chris Go's image of 14 January 2011.

iceman
27-01-2011, 09:53 AM
That footage linked by Ray was captured from Voyager, a space-craft orbiting, or at least on the way to Saturn. That's a big difference to capturing it from a billion kilometres away, at 10metres focal length.

I agree the Encke gap can and has been captured from Earth - not saying it's not real in this image, but it is not often captured when the rings are still at a reasonably shallow tilt. It's easiest to capture those divisions/gaps when the rings are closer to maximum tilt.

iceman
27-01-2011, 09:54 AM
You mean this one at the top?
http://saturn.cstoneind.com/

I can't really see them, and Chris hasn't mentioned it in his commentary.

Paul Haese
27-01-2011, 10:03 AM
Yes the top one but that does not mean Chris would have noticed them. It is entirely possible that I am the first person to notice this from other peoples images. Of course that does not mean I am right but it also does not mean I am wrong!

I also have just noted that one of Trevors images from the 24th in his animation just vaguely shows some of these spots in a simlar position on the opposite side of the rings.

iceman
27-01-2011, 10:05 AM
I hope i'm wrong too - just trying to play devil's advocate :)

Paul Haese
27-01-2011, 10:07 AM
I have posted a message and a link to John's image on the HST imaging group and asked for comments. It may well be nothing but it could be an interesting discovery for all to attempt to image.

suma126
27-01-2011, 10:22 AM
nice and sharp john.:thumbsup:

Paul Haese
27-01-2011, 10:27 AM
Brian Combs has also imaged this. See link below

http://www.bcastropics.com/img/gallery/3/animation1_full.gif

Certainly not dust motes.

SkyViking
27-01-2011, 10:42 AM
I'm convinced the spokes are real. They are usually very large features and easily visible in the space probe images, so no real reason why they can't be spotted from Earth? Stephen O'Meara claimed to have seen them visually in the 70's, before the Voyager images.
However, they are also very transient so in order to actually see them it is probably essential to be lucky enough to capture at the right time and to also make an animation.
I too recall noticing something similar in Trevor's images, but I think there were fewer frames so I didn't think more of it. Seeing John's animation now absolutely convinces me however.

Since there is still much debate over what causes the spokes (electrical fields etc) I can't help to think that they may be associated with the large storm currently raging on Saturn...?

Frewi808
27-01-2011, 12:26 PM
Soooooooooooo Beautifull John !!!!!!!
Just an amazing video !
Freddy

asimov
27-01-2011, 02:06 PM
Certainly better seeing than what I received on the same night. Well done John!

Spokes? I thought that was old news. There has been numerous discussions on this topic in CN a month ago.

strongmanmike
27-01-2011, 03:01 PM
Wow great results Johnny

The spokes certainly look real to me and do appear to be moving around the ring and not across it at least.

Look forward to hearing about the investigation :thumbsup:

Great stuff

Re Enkes division, the gap seems to be very wide and like a stretched triangle, is it the far outer edge of the stretched triangle that is being considered the Enkes division? In other images I have seen that show it well it is a distinct single thin line...?

Mike

mswhin63
27-01-2011, 03:17 PM
Top detail, such great vision of the ring details including the lumpy bits.

Quark
27-01-2011, 07:32 PM
Hi John, some more info for your interest regarding spokes within Saturns rings.

As Asimov has already mentioned this was a topic that recieved a fair bit of coverage on CN over the last couple of months.

I have been checking back through the CN forum and have put together a bit of a chronology of this matter. If you check the posts on CN that I will list below you will find animations that show what may be spokes within the ring system that are rotating with it.

Dec 23rd 2010, Freddy Willem posted a set of Saturn RGB images that Emil Kraaikamp put into an animation and posted within Freddy's thread, several people commented that they could see spoke structure in the animation.

Dec 26th 2010 I posted an animation on CN, my avatar is Kecktastic, Freddy commented that he could see spoke structure within the animation.

Dec 31 2010 Wayne Jaeschke posted a very hi res animation on CN that clearly showed spoke structure in the rings.

Jan 3rd 2011 Emil Kraaikamp avatar MvZ posted a hi res animation showing spoke structure within the rings on CN.

Jan 15th 2011 Brian Coombes posted a hi res animation showing spoke structure on CN

Jan 15 2011 Freddy Willem posted an animation showing the same spoke structure that appeared in Brian Coombes animation on the same date, Reckon that really does support the case that these are real and are spokes.

Jan 24th 2011 Brian Coombes posted an animation showing spoke structure within the rings.

Jan 24th I (Kecktastic) also posted an animation on CN that others thought showed spoke structure within the rings.


Some of the animations listed above are very hi res and definitly show structure within the rings. I must add that initially back in December I doubted that it was spoke structure but I have become a believer.

Some very pertinent facts to consider here relate to the fundamental cause of the spokes. As I understand it there is no broad consensus on this, however, if it is caused by electro magnet forces then it is most pertinent that at the time these "spokes" have been detected in amateur animations has coincided with the biggest, brightest, most intense electrical storm ever recorded on Saturn.

Thought this may have been of interest
Regards
Trevor

John Hothersall
27-01-2011, 07:44 PM
Thank guys for your opinions on the ring patches, they cannot be dust motes as the Flea3 has a glass window about 5mm above sensor surface making small motes impossible, I did think it may be noise from processing but they are on one side only. Avi with 20min separation would have been clearer with movement so will do next time.

Enke could also be a processing result rather than actual feature picked up, I need to restack but not had the time as its the fifth clear night in a row so cannot complain, seeing last night was a let down but will give it a go tonight.

I made a gif from night before with good seeing showing hint of spoke shadows.

http://stargazerslounge.com/attachments/imaging-planetary/49663d1295947196-saturn-25th-animation-gif.gif

Thanks again guys. John.

asimov
27-01-2011, 07:51 PM
Looks good for the Brisbane area. I won't be bothering however. Good luck!

iceman
28-01-2011, 05:52 AM
Well I'm pleased to know that I'm wrong! It's obviously been a while since I've looked in detail at Saturn images.. Trevor's list above shows many examples of it in the last couple of months.

Fantastic! I never thought they would be high contrast enough to be picked up from Earth!

Excellent work John!

Lester
28-01-2011, 08:11 AM
Amazing detail John, thanks for the views. All the best for more.

Screwdriverone
28-01-2011, 08:59 AM
Hi All,

In the Wiki article is the following line : "although it has been suggested that the electrical disturbances might be caused by either lightning bolts in Saturn's atmosphere"

From the orientation and placement of the Spokes, it appears that they are in synchronisation with the storms that are rotating with the Planet....?

Perhaps Saturn's Magnetosphere is being disrupted by the storms and is causing toroidal disturbances in the ring systems to cause these spokes similar to the tidal spots on Jupiter that form with the interaction with Io?

I may have some of the theory wrong.

These are sensational images John and something of which to be to be very proud.

Well done.

Cheers

Chris

bird
28-01-2011, 09:22 AM
Excellent images John! and I like the idea that they are related to lightning as well...

cheers, Bird

icytailmark
28-01-2011, 11:57 AM
it certainly does look like chunks of ice in the ring on the left hand side look in each frame the specks are moving along the ring.

renormalised
29-01-2011, 12:56 AM
Great shots John :):)

Guys...there's a problem with the dust mote theory. Watch the second, slower animation. If they were dust motes, no matter what you tried to do, they wouldn't move as you took a series of shots, they would stay roughly in the same place as you ran the animation.

Watch the darkest of the "patches" in the animation. You can see aspect changes in the shape of the spot which are indicative of something rotating into and out of view. It would've been made easier if John had've taken more subs to smooth the rotation of the spot out more, but it is pretty clear that whatever was imaged there is not a dust mote but is rotating fairly synchronously with the body of the planet. Since the spokes and other phenomena of the rings has possibly to do with the influence of the magnetic field of the planet on the particles, as well as the presence of shepherding objects within the rings themselves, it seems most likely that the phenomena we see here is local to the rings, and due to those influences.

Paul Haese
29-01-2011, 07:48 AM
It's been confirmed by Dr John Rogers of JUPOS that these are indeed spokes. He suggests that the storms are something altogether different. The spokes are most likely a magnetic resonance feature. Strangely only seen around the time of the equinox.

John I would suggest you submit this to space weather too for a feature on the front page. Not many images have been produced with this sort of clarity.

renormalised
29-01-2011, 12:15 PM
You know what would be really interesting to find out, and that's how often the spokes have been imaged from Earth without people realising that they had taken piccies of them...and how far back in the past they have been imaged.

What a pity amateurs don't have ready access to sites of very clear and steady skies so that they can image and study these things more often.

mswhin63
29-01-2011, 01:37 PM
Definitely submit it even to APOD. I am watching lectures from one of the co-ordinator's. A lot of the images are used in scientific studies and watched very closely. :thumbsup:

samilag
31-01-2011, 04:08 AM
John congratulation thanks for these pictures, astro-imagers are able to give also scientific supports with these kind of spectacular details.

Giuseppe

iceman
31-01-2011, 05:57 AM
This is now IOTW (http://www.iceinspace.com.au).

Quark
31-01-2011, 10:21 AM
Congratulations on IOTW John, truly a stunning image.

Cheers
Trevor

Shiraz
31-01-2011, 10:28 AM
Very well deserved IOTW - congratulations John. Regards

John Hothersall
31-01-2011, 07:36 PM
Thanks Mike for IOTW I am really flattered and it certainly spurs me on although the vgood seeing seems to have gone for now but Saturn will remain for a couple of months with more opportunities especially with IR filter is quite exciting and that storm is unprecedented.

I have learned so much from this forum since contributing last Winter, the imaging standard here at IIS seems much higher than other forums and have received great advice from Bird and Trevor with my new Flea3.

Thanks again for comments, John.

SkyViking
31-01-2011, 08:13 PM
Congratulations on the IOTW John, well deserved indeed, that image is just stunning :)

KenGee
31-01-2011, 09:36 PM
Well done John great image.

paulF
31-01-2011, 10:51 PM
Wow Wow and Woooooow
Mad shots and a beautiful thread !Was really interesting reading all the educated opinions of the big guns on the forum :)

Cheers

Ric
31-01-2011, 11:36 PM
Congrats John

they are awesome images and animation.

Cheers

Emil
01-02-2011, 01:37 AM
This is just unbelievably good, awesome results!

Quark (Trevor)
In 2010 I also made several animations that show dark spots in the B-rings that I believed were spokes. It's difficult to say with absolute certainty, but for what it's worth (which might very well be nothing hehe) I'm about 99.9% convinced that the effects in those 2010 animations are real and not artefacts. I know how I processed those images, and animations do show a lot more than just still frames. If it was only a single image with a dark spot, then I would agree it is probably an artefact. But when you see the dark feature move around in subsequent stacks, then it is most likely something real.

You do need a steady seeing to show these kinds of features, and you have to process each of the stacks in exactly the same way. And you have to build animations to be (much more) sure, but then I think a lot more people can capture the spokes (when they are there!).

http://www.astrokraai.nl/getimage.php?id=310
http://www.astrokraai.nl/dump/20100409_2215-2341_Saturn_RGB.gif

As you can see the effects are MUCH dimmer than in these images, but I haven't found a better explanation of what the dark spots are in the rings other than spokes.

John Hothersall
01-02-2011, 02:47 AM
Yes Emil I took a look at you CN animation rocking back and forth, dust spokes on the right B ring clearly seen and Brian Combs animation shows spokes too. I think between us its confirmed, don't know if this is unusually high contrast dust not normally seen we are just lucky to get. As rings open up over next few years this sight may be common for amatures to image with newer cameras coming online.

John.

Emil
01-02-2011, 02:56 AM
By the way, if the spokes are somehow related to the large storms on Saturn, there also was one large year when I made those recordings. It wasn't as huge as the one currently messing with Saturn though.

But you can't really do statistics on such a small sample size of course ;)

skies2clear
01-02-2011, 11:52 AM
Truly incredible images.

I noticed in the animations, the motion reverses half way through. Excuse this question coming from a complete amateur, but is there a reason why this is done? At least that is the way it looks to me anyway.

Clear skies

erick
01-02-2011, 04:20 PM
Congratulations, John! Great work!! :thumbsup:

John Hothersall
02-02-2011, 02:09 AM
Thanks again everyone.



I created an animation that goes forward and then back to beginning making for a smooth movement rocking back and forth without jumping when it repeats so detail can be seen better.

John.

skies2clear
02-02-2011, 02:59 PM
Thanks John, it certainly has that advantage.

seeker372011
02-02-2011, 10:04 PM
stunning work..hope it makes APOD

bkm2304
03-02-2011, 09:50 PM
Timothy Ferris wrote "Seeing In The Dark" in 2002. He talks about the visual observer, American, Stephen O'Meara who reported spoke structures in Saturn in the 1970's. He also discusses Eugene Antoniadi who reported similar structures in the 19th century. O'Meara was poo poohed and his observations were rejected for publication. He was justified in 1979 by the Voager images. See Ferris' Book published by Simon Schuster ISBN 0 - 684 - 86580 - 7.

Richard