Cloudy Night Classified

[OICURMT]

Looks like CN are having problems with scammers... :mad2:

A real shame... :sadeyes:

[mozzie]

yep a shame!!!!astro gear,aussie floods there always seem to be scammers...
something the mod's will have to keep an eye on..

[vindictive666]

they were up again today

22-01-2011 05.40am -+

regards john

[TrevorW]

Makes you wonder about the valiity of posts like this

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=69320

1st post no response to peoples requests for photo's etc

may be a good idea if webmaster sets up some rules before a member can post in "For Sale" eg: member for 3 months with a least 100 or so posts spread over that time and all items posted for sale need to have images attached.

[iceman]

This has been discussed many times, most recently here:
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=59545

[TrevorW]

Mike why do you duck shove my valid point by referrring me to a previous thread on the subject where there was no outcome.

Scammers are rife in todays society and IMO you have a "duty of care" to ensure members are not taken for a ride by placing a few safeguards in place to lessen the likelyhood of it happening.

Have you sort a legal opinion on this??? (under your classsiefied terms of service)



The administrators and moderators expressly have no liability for the transactions which may occur between members of the forum, whether through the medium of the IceTrade Classifieds, or otherwise.
Each forum member who purchases an item from another forum member, does so at their own risk and they expressly waive any entitlement to bring any claim against an administrator or moderator with respect to any such transaction.

Also do you also scan Ebay to ensure an item hasn't been posted there already.

One sale in a thousand gone wrong because of a scammer is still a bad sale.

Whether those safe guards work or not doesn't matter at least you have done your best for your members and IMO I don't think it's a big ask to at least post pictures of the sale item.

PS: your own terms of service in the classifieds state

The post should ideally contain:
- A Description of the item
- A picture of the item
- Cost you are willing to sell it for
- Postage costs or pickup location
- Preferred contact method (forum private message, email, phone, etc)
- Preferred payment methods

[OICURMT]

Wasn't there a thread discussing some way to issue warnings or complaints about "deals gone wrong"?

What ever happened to the concept?

[bluemeanie]

to cloudy to do anything =| (Mandurah, WA)
:shrug:

[stephenb]

Personally, I interpret that the TOS clearly state that all responsibility is on the individual member and IIS (Mike Salway or anyone else involved in the site) are only acting as a conduit for the buyer and seller. That's my take on it.

Yes, the TOS also state that the item is not to be advertised on eBay and IIS simultaneously, but in the end, so what if one or two slip through? Is that such a big deal? I would not expect the owners of IIS to be spending all day scouring eBay for this type of breach.

Finally the TOS state:

The post "should" contain.... to me this is not a directive like "must contain" or "will contain".


My opinions only....

[AstroFlyer]

+1
That's my take on TOS as well.
Last year I was ripped of by an IIS member.
He acted like a total scum.
I had no problem whatsoever with IIS - this forum provide great source of second hand gear at very attractive prices.
I bought my current scope here & am very grateful for the opportunity.
I knew the risks (same as any other transaction really) & was unlucky to deal with a scum. Such is life.
the only thing I would like to see (if at all possible) to have a sticky where people affected by scams can post a warning ( after mods OK it) to other IIS members, so no one else get ripped off.
Cheers
Arek

[TrevorW]

A dsiclaimer doesn't IMO negate the necessity to ensure that certain safeguards are in place to lessen the likehood of this happening.

You read instances all the time where signs are posted saying don't do this or that but people still do and then sue councils etc for negligence when something goes wrong

Also wouldn't it be a simple matter to ideally change the TOS from "ideally contain" to "contain the following".

"ideally contained" is like saying put anything you like I don't really care.

Any lawyers out there want to clarify this.

[GrahamL]

I can't see a problem with the way things run now ?
Like all the safeguards and measures you put in place are undone in an instant if the sellar dosn't have any personal integrity .

[wavelandscott]

I suspect that the answer will be to do away with classifieds completely...keeps everyone safe too. I believe that is the path that Cloudy Nights has recently taken. Alternatively, the Astromart (pay to join) model can serve as another option.

Otherwise about the best that can be done in a free site is "Caveat Emptor"...

[marki]

I have bought and sold a lot of stuff on the ice trades and have never had a problem. There are a few simple rules to follow and you are pretty safe. Make sure you know the person (have they been around for a while? have you exchanged conversation?) get phone numbers, contact address and bank account details and work through direct transfer. Never send the item as a seller until the money is deposited and shows on your account and so on. As a seller do not accept hard luck stories, you either have the cash to buy or you don't. As a seller take off the rosey glasses and be honest in your appraisal of the gear you are selling, do not try to rip people off. In the case of items costing a lot of money you are best getting on a plane and going there to sight the item and pay in person. I would hate to see ice trades stopped over concerns that a few wombats were taking people for a ride. It offers us the chance to buy quality items from people we trust at fair prices. If it all gets too hard I would not blame Mike from pulling the board though as he shouldn't have to take responsibility when things go wrong. In a nutshell just be careful and do your homework.

Mark

[DavidTrap]

Are you having an each way bet Trevor? Complaining about political correctness in one thread and then claiming the forum has a "duty of care" in another.

What about taking responsibility for yourself? Buyers and sellers beware.

DT

[iceman]

Yes - the IceTrade TOS were put together with the help of a very good lawyer.


No, I don't need to. You're misinterpreting the rule about ebay. It doesn't state that it can't be for sale on ebay or any other for-sale site. It says that you can't simply link to a thread/posting on any other classifieds site. You have to list the item in entirety on IceTrade.
Extra clarification, if needed: http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=40194


And who is going to moderate all of the thousands of threads each year to make sure they all comply to the letter? What a nightmare that would be.

Like Scott says, it'd be better to pull the whole thing than to have an unwieldy system of rules in place to try and protect people from the 0.01% chance that a sale might go bad.

Use common sense, ask questions, ring the person, ask for a phone number.. we've discussed these things before. It's not that hard.

[TrevorW]

David I think you need to get your facts right

a) I don't give a hoot about PC, in fact I think it's bombastic, arrogant and a waste of time, IMO "duty of care" and "PC" are not interchangeable

Political correctness (adjectivally, politically correct; both forms commonly abbreviated to PC) is a term which denotes language (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/wiki/Language), ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, religious belief, disability, and age-related contexts.

A politically incorrect statement may offend some one but not harm.

In tort law (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/wiki/Tort), a duty of care (or delict in Scots law (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/wiki/Scots_law)) is a legal (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/wiki/Law) obligation (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/wiki/Obligation) imposed on an individual requiring that they adhere to a standard (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/wiki/Standard_of_care) of reasonable (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/wiki/Reasonable_person) care while performing any acts that could foreseeably harm others.

One would imply offense ie: his feeling may be hurt the other harm, either physically or financially

b) I was making a point that if someone gets caught in a scam on this site how well could MS hide behind a disclaimer. I was also making a point that on numerous occassions I've seen items posted for sale with no "photos" photos IMO aid in detemining the validity of the item for sale and it's general condition.

I rarely advertise for sale or buy used items and if I do take all necessary precautions to ensure a happy ending as those who I've brought from and sold too can contest

One thing I've noticed about this site is someone says anything remotely against sites rules etc there is a little bunch that come togethor in defence and lambaste anyone that may have an opposing view.

I was not making this a personal issue in fact I was trying to ensure MS had necessary safeguards in place but it seems other's wish too breach the forum TOS once again

[gbeal]

Crikey, I haven't read all of this, and don't intend to, but to shovel the responsibility onto someone else (in this case Mik/IIS) makes no sense to me at all.
Two answers: use it with the gotchas that we all know about, or don't use it.
Me? I have bought and sold as much as most, more perhaps. Do your due diligence and don't buy or sell if you are not happy.
PC I don't do either, but pushing the blame elsewhere is something that grates me a tad too. And no, this isn't a rush to Mikes or IIS's defense, far from it. It is self-preservation, I enjoy this forum, and the CN's one too, and to lose them through a comment or suggestion like yours Trevor would be annoying, to me.
I've said my bit, and that's all from me.
Gary

[taxman]

Maybe this needs to be made a little clearer - I had a 'for sale' thread pulled by one of the mods because I said it was also for sale on ebay after a couple of days. Didn't include a link, just said it was for sale there.

But that was one small onion after quite a few easy trades - overall the classifieds service has been excellent for someone with more money than sense like me.

Besides, I am beginning to suspect I have lost interest - better be nice in case I want offload everything :lol:

[stephenb]

As one of my final posts here on IIS, I would like to say I have bought and sold many items over the 4 years as a member. Many times I have allowed IIS members to attend my home address by appointment to collect items and most have been no problems at all. I have sold all manner of items - scopes, eyepieces, a scope pier, books, scope parts etc. Unfortunately I have had two cases where, after the buyer had left my home and in the days following the transaction, I was left feeling uneasy about the security of my home and my property. One case I found the member sitting in his car in my street when I arrived home unexpectantly several days later. I was provided with an unconvincing story as to why he was sitting off my house. The matter was dealt with at a local policing level. Trusting and allowing another person into my home for the purposes of a IIS or and eBay transaction is my responsibility - a decision I made based on the information I had obtained from the prospective buyer and at the time I was satisfied with that.

I don't "sweat the small stuff" anymore. Some people here need to learn that.

Thank you to all the polite and trusting IIS members I have both spoken to and met in person, and thanks for all the cordial and sometimes robust conversations.

Stephen

[asimov]

Boy, has this thread gone off topic. Anyway, nothing to do with me, I'm not a mod..

I will say though, it comes down to using the noggin' when buying stuff off members of this here forum..Don't trust 'em for some reason? Fine, don't buy it.

[DavidTrap]

Thank you Trevor for your dissertation on PC & duty of care.

Perhaps I should have said your criticism of the TOS for being too restrictive then criticism for them being too lax.

I was also referring to a general shift in society where people refuse to take any responsibility for their own actions.

If I was scammed on IIS, the idea of holding Mike responsible for my loss would never enter my mind. I have been bought up to be responsible for my actions. There are situations where "duty of care" does apply, but I don't think an internet forum is one of those situations.

I made a purchase recently on IIS where something didn't feel right initially. I made lots of enquiries of the seller and eventually paid for the purchase COD through AustPost - this involved a third party in the transaction and offered protection for both buyer and seller. I am happy to report the transaction went through without a hitch.

Regards,
DT

[iceman]

I'm not sure when this happened, but if it happened a while ago (before it was clarified) that could be one reason. It was confusing for them too.

I'm pretty sure the mods now know the rules regarding other for-sale sites but I'll clarify with them just to be sure.

[Barrykgerdes]

When I placed an add some years ago. I understood that an IIS member had to establish himself as a bona fidi person by posting at least 10 times to the forums. This I did as a matter of course and I have been very happy to have joined the site.

I have only looked at one shonky add and that was a first post so I wonder if the old rule still applies. I like to read the for sales and picked up some very useful pieces of equipment from them. I always make enquiries about items to the sellers and try to establish their validity. After this I would expect any problems to be of my own doing, not IIS.

I did once get some questionable replies to an add with a ridiculous offer. I was pestered for some time by the person but politely informed him I was not interested. I did get the impression he was a reseller of some type and expected to sell it on to someone else. Incidently I eventually gave the item to someone I knew who had a legitimate need for it.

I suppose I am lucky in some respect in that I don't need to get anything for items I advertise. They have always been depreciated to zero before I offer them. So a good story is all one needs to get the item gratis.

Barry

[iceman]

That used to be the case, in the early days. You had to make 5 posts and be a member for a month. Those restrictions were removed because it was a barrier of entry for legitimate people who wanted to sell some gear.


There'll always be people like this. There have been complaints about those type of people in the past.
Really though, the best bet is just to ignore those people. You can even put them on your 'ignore' list and you'll never see any of their posts or PM's.

If someone really does keep annoying you to the point of harassment, let a moderator know and we can take action.


Interestingly regarding the original topic, it's only the "Cloudy Nights Classifieds" (the CNC) that they have shutdown. They still run their "Shop and Swap" forums, which are similar to IceTrade, and from what I can tell, are going just fine.

I never really understood why they had both.