Anyone owned/seen Cele Omni 120 XLT?

[kitsuna]

Hey, this is my first post on this forum.

for a little background;

I'm just now at the point where I can nurture my long term love of all things stellar. I've always had an interest in the stars and space in general, even from a very young age. Since I can't be an astronaut and GO there, I've settled for looking at it through a scope.The "Ah ha!" moment came on boxing day. typical; you spend months wondering what to ask for for Christmas, and then the day after it's done, you know what you really want.

To that end I've been reading the newbie literature (Nightwatch and Backyard Astronomer's guide by Dickinson), bought myself a pair of 8x56 tasco binocs (which i will soon get a tripod for, because I have weak girly arms) and intend to go to the local ASSA public viewing as soon as possible. (Hopefully tomorrow night, weather permitting).

Anyway; looking at how good the aussie dollar is against the greenback at the moment, I'm seriously considering getting a scope. The rub is I'm in a bit of a pickle as to what I want.

I've read up a bit, and I reckon that a Meade 8" LX90 ACF is the one to go for. From what I read, it's a good versatile all-rounder (but master of none).

pros as I see them:

allegedly good (but not necessarily great as focussed scope) for most things

-planetary
-star clusters
-nebulas

GOTO on a fork mount (which for a complete novice, should be easier than a manual EQ mount)

relatively portable in terms of size/weight

cons;

price tag, even with the au dollar soaring.

A fair enough pick in my estimation to allow me to get a good dabble at most of what's out in the big black. It should be all the scope I need for a good long while unless I decide to get heavily into planetary viewing/photograpy, faint fuzzy finding or serious astrophotography, at which point I may need to get a specialist scope (which will probably happen anyway)

and yet....

Something appeals to me about a refractor on an EQ mount. In particular, the Celestron Omni 120 XLT. Weird, considering that it's about as far away from the LX 90 as a scope can be. Anyway, the reason why a refractor appeals to me is;

I understand that in general terms, a refractor should require less maintenance and collimation than a reflector (although in the grand scheme of things, that isn't a big deal).

Something appeals to me about doing things 'the old fashioned way' to find objects in the sky, rather than pushing a keypad and having the telescope go do the hard work for me. I still remember the first time I found orion, and the thrill of elation in doing it for myself. That's a big part of the fun for me. Somehow, the ease of a Goto system might actually be a detriment to my enjoyment (and if I'm wrong, I can get a GOTO mount later and just keep the OTA if I really want).

The EQ mount doesn't scare me much since I've got a much better idea of how to set one up well enough for visual work anyway (thanks to the Iceinspace article on it and my own resources).

The price is much lower, especially if I get one online from the states (even with shipping/insurance costs), even with a set of different eyepieces and filters (which I think I would get more mileage out of than a GOTO system).

As a side note; I cannot believe how expensive even mid-range scopes are in Australia, even with the australian dollar at it's highest point ever. Explain to me why I can buy the celestron from the states, with a set of eyepieces and filters for $1400 (insured and priority shipping) and a retailer here wants $2000 just for the scope/mount. The meade is much more even in terms of price, but still...

anyway back to the main point:

Aesthetically, I like refractors on EQ mounts. :shrug:

I know enough to know that "in general" bigger aperture is a better way to go, but I also know that I'm not exactly going to be hunting for quasars or doing any astrophotography any time soon. Also, most of my viewing will inevitably be done in suburban adelaide, so I'm going to be looking at mostly the brightest objects in the sky; planets bright stars/star clusters and brighter nebulas which doesn't exactly require a 20" dob newt to find.

I intend to get out into some dark sky country as often as I can, but the reality is at least 60% of my viewing is going to be done from my back yard.

I also know that there is a trade off between a refractor and a CAT. I know that refractor doesn't have to worry about a big central obstruction ruining the view, but can get false colour unless you spend extra (and it seems like a lot extra) on a "true" APO. However, a CAT generally gets you more aperture per dollar, even with the central obstruction. I also know that a scope is only really as good as its optics (including quality eyepieces). I also know that asking the world to decide if Celestron is better than meade or vice versa is an invitation to start world war 3.

Anyway, to get to the point of this thread;

I've read quite a bit about the virtues and pitfalls of a CAT, and of the 8" CATs offered by Meade and Celestron in general. What I haven't been able to get information on is how the Celestron Omni 120 XLT does. what's it good at? what's it rubbish at? Does the coating fix or at least reduce the colour issues or is it just a nasty achro. How does it do for planets, stars, galaxies nebulas (the kind of things a newbie like me is most likely to look at. The showpiece items of star clusters, various Messier Objects, the SMC and the LMC, the planets, the brighter nebulas etc). the point is, from my relatively light polluted position, I'm going to be somewhat limited in what I can see. So what I can see, I want to be able to see well and in as much detail as I can.

I'm really asking if anyone has owned/used one reasonably thoroughly and owned other scopes (particularly a CAT) to give a meaningful comparison (keeping in mind that I'm aware that each type of scope has its strengths and weaknesses).

[kitsuna]

addnote:

just to make things even more complicated;

I'm liking the Skywatcher BD ED120. While more expensive, I suspect this is actually a "true" Apo, where the Celstron is an acro.

Again, anyone thoroughly road tested this model?

[barx1963]

Hi Adam and welcome to IIS!!!:welcome::D

As I am fairly recently of Newbie status myself, I can give you a bit of help. The Celestron 120 XLT I believe is a refractor on a EQ mount with an aperture of 120mm which is fairly small. Generally small aperture scopes are most useful for bright objects, moon, planets brighter Open clusters etc. Also refractors tend to be more expensive than reflectors as they are harder to make.
My first scope was a 130mm Newtonion on an EQ mount which seemed like a great idea until I tried to use it! EQ mounts are hard to use and take some practice, and while it seems easy in daylight, the same operations when it is dark and cold are MUCH harder.
My next scope was a 12" GSO dobsonion which I picked up for around $1000 brand new. I picked this after having use of aclub loaner 8" dob for a few months and discovering the joy of Dobs!:D
I found more objects in one night with the 8" than I had found in 12 months with the EQ mount. Even getting the moon or planets was hard with the EQ, with a dob its just point and look.
You are correct in saying you don't need a 20" to find many of the objects you are interested in, but when you see the difference in view of Omega Cent or M42 in a 12" or even 8" scope compared to a 120mm refractor you will be blown away.
So based on my experience, and I have typed this same sentence on this forum many times now, GO GET AS BIG A DOB AS YOPU CAN AFFORD!!! you will not regret it.
If you are still not convinced, get yourself to a club observing night or star party and have a look at the scopes and through them. One thing you will notice, around 90% of the visual observers are using big dobs (by big I mean anything from 8" to 15" or bigger) with the remainder using GOTO cats. Small scopes on EQ mounts are rare among visual observers.

Malcolm

[barx1963]

Just to update, with regard to the SW BD 120, unless you are doing astrophotography, the difference between an achros and an apo is largely irrelevant. If you are interested in visual observing you would be hard pressed to see any difference in the image presented by the two types of scope.
Oh and re prices in Aust re prices from US. Odds are if you buy from US you are one your own if any warranty issues crop up. Also remember that the US retailers who ship here are huge operations each one selling more volume than the entire Aust astro market in some cases, and in business volume talks! Given that the Aust retailers we have in my experience give generally excellent service and back up their products.

[kitsuna]

thanks for the input barx. something to consider certainly. :)

[casstony]

Hi Adam, just a couple of points:

Celestron refractors are especially overpriced in Australia and you can usually get the same scope but Skywatcher branded for a lot less. Andrews Communications have the 120mm achromatic refractor you're considering on an EQ5 mount (heavier duty mount than the Omni package) for $1200. Buy local if you can, but only if the price is within reason.

Probably the best all rounder beginners scope is a 10" dob; it's fairly easy to handle, not too expensive and will gather enough light to show you a lot of deep space objects. It will also be satisfying enough that you won't feel the need to upgrade in a hurry.

LX90's are nice scopes too though the 10" is the one to strive for if you're observing from a suburban backyard.

[astroron]

Hi Adam, as an owner of three scopes 60mm,20cm,40cm, I would concur with the 10"(25cm) Dob as your first scope,it gives great views, is not too expensive and if in the future you want to start into astro imaging you have something to sell as a starter in a quite expensive part of the Astronomy hobbie,or of course as a second scope for the great enjoyment of visual observing :D
Aperture is nearly always the way to go and with a 10" scope is a great starter:thumbsup:
Cheers

[kitsuna]

That little tidbit is quite useful casstony. I've been looking at andrewscom as my source because from what I've seen, in almost all cases, they sell the same thing cheaper (sometimes massively so) than other sites I've checked.

Although I did know that Celestron and Skywatcher are both owned by Synta, I didn't know that the 120 celestron had a twin in the Skywatcher range (or that they had body doubles for many scopes)... veeerrry interesting.

I've also just checked, the one you're referring to is on the GOTO mount. They've got the same EQ5 mount without GOTO for $900 including shipping. hmm...

Thanks to Astroron for your input as well. I'm not surprised that so many are suggesting a dob. Only option is to get my eye over a few in person to see what can be seen, as ultimately, that's the acid test. Who knows? I might even change my mind and go for a dob.

It'd have to be pretty special to get my mind off the BD 120 APO or the lx90 though. ;)

[astroron]

Hi Adam, 5" is still only 5" :rolleyes: when you have looked at an object in a scope with over 4x the light gathering capacity of your 5" scope there is no comparison:thumbsup:
Cheers

[barx1963]

Just remember, telescopes are for looking through, the one that gives the best view is the best scope and the best view is ALWAYS provided by aperture, not by the mount, not by the brand, not by the price tag, only by aperture! And dollar for dollar, dobs give the most aperture per $! And if you are a town or city that applies even more so, you need that aperture to beat light pollution.
Also one of the sayings you come across in this caper is that "the best scope is the one you use the most". My EQ mounted reflector spent most of its time in the loungeroom because I just couldn't face all the fiddling in the dark to see a handful of objects. In the time it used to take me to have a rough polar alignement worked out and then navigated to an object I have setup up the dob, unpacked eyepices, setup the dew heaters, got out table and atlases and probably observed several objects.
This is not to say that the scopes you are looking at don't have their place, but I would bet that more newbies have left the observing caper after being convinced that a EQ mounted refractor is the way to go than for any other reason.

Malcolm

[barx1963]

Oh I realised I hadn't addressed the LX90 8". I will use Bintel prices that will not apply at others but are indicative. The 8" LX 90 is $2695. An 8" dob is $529 for a difference of $2166. Both scope have the same light grasp although the LX90 has a focal length of 2000mm against 1200mm for the dob. This increased focal length gives higher magnification BUT that is not always a good thing as higher power also dims the image. Most visual observers do the majority of the observing at fairly low powers <150x anyway.
$2166 is a lot of money to get good quality dew heaters, top notch eyepieces ( and again, many very good observers spend more on their EPs than their scope, I know I do as a really good EP will improve the image in any scope, while a poor EP only ever produces poor images), atlases and books (indispensable to a visual observer, even one using GOTO) and all the other bits and pieces needed.

Malcolm

[kitsuna]

all valid points. If it comes down to a matter of money, I may even cave and get a dob. :shrug: