Fermi observatory detects antimatter in Earth's thunderstorms

[gary]

Full story in LA Times here -
http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-thunderstorms-antimatter-20110112,0,7611573.story

[CraigS]

I'd love to figure out how to put some of the surplus anti-matter into a bottle and sell it to the highest bidder ..

I read somewhere that anti-matter is one of the most expensive things around !

Cheers

PS: Oh here it is in Wiki .. Cost of Antimatter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimatter#Cost) ..
"in 1999 NASA gave a figure of $62.5 trillion per gram of antihydrogen"….
… "according to CERN, it has cost a few hundred million Swiss Francs to produce about 1 billionth of a gram" !!!

[gary]

Hi Craig,

Dietrich Mateschitz, who was one of the founders of Red Bull, has become
wealthy enough to buy his own island off Fiji. A franchise on bottled antimatter
would undoubtedly net the owners a fortune that would outstrip that of an
energy drink entrepreneur many times over. :lol:

[renormalised]

Well...figure out a way to hold the antimatter in a stably configured magnetic bottle, gather however much is coming off the storms and become the owner of the planet because you have enough antimatter to buy up the entire world's economy several times over:D:P

[CraigS]

Hi Gary;

I'd call it …. "Anti-Bull" … and it would be only available to a select few.
:)




G'Day Carl;

I'd invent all my own theories .. and anyone who didn't agree with them would be electrocuted !!! .. then vapourised on the spot !!

:evil:

Cheers (???)

[renormalised]

And I know who to give it to....the "anti-bull":D:P



And that sounds like a group we know and don't love:D:P

[gary]

Graphic on NASA web site here -
http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/509357main_Trio_noshadow_300dpi.pdf

[xelasnave]

I am skeptical:D.

I am skeptical because I don't understand the concept of anti matter firstly;) but this aside I ask a question I suspect must have been asked before now....and it is this...

If there is anti matter (or if it has existed at any point in time) why is it that we now have so little (if any) and the predominance is of matter:shrug:.

Should the concept of anti matter be limited to Star Trek and other similar fictional approaches to our Universe?

It seems rather fanciful that given the difficulties of producing anti matter in the lab (I know they found it years ago so they say) we now find in nature it is produced somewhat as a matter of course "in the clouds".

Now if we have anti matter being produced as suggested what happens next? What matter does our lightning produced anti matter cancel out?

Does anti matter and matter cancel out? What is left?nothing?

Given the incidence of lightening and the suggestion of this most recent discovery could one not conclude the universe is being eroded a little each time we have "lightning"...what matter does this anti matter destroy? or is it gathered up to power extraterrestrial space craft?

If nothing else how can the hypothesis (I know it was found etc) of anti matter have any basis in reality? otherwise there must be a compelling argument to explain why matter rules in the absence of anti matter.

Must we content ourselves with an answer that the reason for its absence is a matter of economics??

Yes it is still raining here:D but really is it not time to throw out this extremely fanciful concept that leaves us with no explanation as to the now apparent absence of anti matter in our observable universe.

alex:):):)

[renormalised]

Alex, the whole reason why you're skeptical is because of your lack of understanding. However there's nothing arcane about what antimatter is.

You know how an electron has a negative polarity (charge). The anti-electron (positron) has a positive polarity (charge). That's basically all the difference is....the antimatter particle has the opposite characteristics of its matter counterpart.

The reason why matter predominates over antimatter is because there was a slight abundance of matter over antimatter at the time of the Big Bang. Even if there was only 1 particle in 1000000 overabundance of matter over antimatter at the time, that's all it took. What you now see is the dregs of what's left after the two annihilated one another. All that high energy gamma radiation that was produced at the time is now part of the very weak CMB which you see everywhere you look.

The fact that they've found rather large quantities of the stuff being produced by thunderstorms is not something I am surprised by. Simple fact of the matter is that thunderstorms generate enormous amounts of energy and whilst it may take a lot of effort for us to produce small quantities of the stuff, a large storm has far more power than your particle accelerator. Not only that, the form of antimatter being produced, positrons, isn't all that hard to create....if you have enough energy to do so. And enough target material to produce a decent quantity of the stuff. In any case, we still know very little about the physical processes that occur within thunderstorms and the energies involved, so it's not surprising that something like this should turn up.

They suspected for quite some time that the electrical discharges in thunderstorms were powerful enough to produce bursts of antimatter. They've detected gamma ray burst from thunderstorms, from space, since about 1998, but haven't been able to pin down the actual mechanisms until now.

[renormalised]

Here Alex, read this.......Positron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positron) :)

[sjastro]

Alex,

It has more practical uses. Since positrons are produced through Beta decay they can be put to good use. For example they can used to locate cancers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positron_emission_tomography

Regards

Steven

[Steffen]

i wonder how this affects the dynamic of thunderstorms, and our understanding of their inner workings.

If energy can be taken out of the thermodynamic spectacle, converted into matter and anti-matter, which then travels and later recombines somewhere else to release the energy again - then this could make for interesting effects, which may not be readily explainable through conventional weather physics.

Cheers
Steffen.

[CraigS]

Here's an informative NASA Astrophysics Video (http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-01-thunderstorms-hurling-antimatter-space-caught.html) on how the process works.

I found it very interesting.

The rebound effect at the end of the video (2:07) was what got me. For some reason (unexplained in the video), the positron particles seem to reverse direction along the magnetic field and pass through the spacecraft a 'fraction of a second later' … for a second time ! I wonder why ?

Fascinating. I recommend looking at the video as its a good explanation of how they think it works.

Cheers

[xelasnave]

Thank you Carl:thumbsup::thanx: and thank you Steven :thumbsup::thanx:for taking the time to throw light on this most interesting matter er anti matter..whatever:D.

I did feel my post would produce the gems you both did provide:thumbsup:.

Of course I knew most of the info:D :rolleyes: but I figured what would come from my post would be most helpful to those wondering about how anti matter figured in the scheme of things.:) as I could not recall any earlier discussion upon anti matter in this forum.

Very interesting and most informative links:thumbsup::thanx:.

Now all we have to do is get the Eu folk to fit this latest observation into their world ..er their universe:lol::lol::lol:

alex:):):)

[xelasnave]

And thank you Craig :thumbsup::thanx:I only now saw your excellent contribution and will definitely check out the movie.

It is wonderful the movies available on science (and many other subjects for that matter).

To think a mug like me can go to Stanford U and attend lectures by Leonard Suskin (for example) is fantastic:).

Once we had only a library where you could put your name on a list and wait for a book so I feel we live in a most wonderful time:):):).

Mind you there is some crap out there but even the crap gives one incite I feel... I have a new found appreciation that I am not that peculiar given some of the wild ideas folk make little movies about.

Anyways the (my) bridge is still under water apparently so I cant get home to a non existent drive way and a house full of frogs:eyepop:... maybe the snakes will clean them out before I get back;).

alex:):):)

[xelasnave]

Yes Steffen a very interesting observation. I do think the observation under discussion must lead us someplace. The question I asked re the apparent absence of anti matter I think has been asked before:rolleyes: so this new info must help folk engaged in many areas.

alex:):):)

[CraigS]

… or even 'insight' … as well !! :D



Hmmm … :question:
:lol::)

A belated 'Happy Birthday ! to you, too Alex. I hope you didn't celebrate by going out and throwing stones at passing vehicles !! (Did ya catch 'em?)

By the way, we've had quite a few discussions about anti-matter previously. My 'economic' comment is the first time this angle has been introduced. I thought it an interesting snippet of trivia, actually. Good for those 'pub' conversations of yours !

Cheers

[xelasnave]

In my case it is so often "incite" Craig :lol::lol::lol:.

You gotta love those "blue" words in Wiki they lead me to so many interesting places.

Thank you for the birthday wishes and no culprits arrested or even spoken to in relation to the stone throwing event.

I think I am making progress at least with the 2012 fears. When folk find out that I am into astronomy guess what they ask;) yes of course..what is going to happen in 2012. They are genuinely disappointed when I throw cold water on the prospect of a world ending however...why do folk want to believe crap in our enlightened times I just can not understand.
I saw a great cartoon yesterday on 2012...two Indians standing in front of the calendar stone one with a hammer and chisel saying to the other ..."well there was not enough stone to go any further" ....why dont folk grasp such simplicity ...sortta like the y2k bug I guess:lol::lol::lol:

What will they do when I tell them climate change will produce more anti matter and the horrors that will follow:lol::lol::lol:

alex:):):)

[renormalised]

Just had a thought....climate change....more intense thunderstorms more often etc etc. More antimatter.....might make for louder thunderclaps!!! :) :P

[Steffen]

Can somebody devise a way of modifying Franklin's kite please, so it can be used to harvest anti-matter? There seems to be a good market for the suff apparently…

Cheers
Steffen.