Freedom of Speech

[TrevorW]

Obviously freedom of speech, adult debate etc are no longer tolerated on this site and after nearly 3 years as a member I'm going elsewhere

Goodbye to all those open minded souls on this site who have assisted me in that time, see you on the other side

:hi:

[jjjnettie]

Don't go forever Trevor.
Step back for a while, cool off and come back to to us.

[snowyskiesau]

Have a rethink Trevor.

There are numerous sites where you can argue about every subject know to man (or women ) but very few sites where you can find as many like minded, helpful astronomy folk as right here.

By all means, take a break, go and find a site that suits your politics or point of view and argue/dicuss life there.

I'm getting out of astronomy for a number of reason but I'll still keep this coming to this site regularly.

[iceman]

Nowhere does it say in the TOS that this site allows 'freedom of speech' or that it's a democracy. It never has and never will.

If you choose not to visit IIS because an inappropriate joke got removed, that's your loss, and certainly seems an immature response to me. What you may not find offensive, other people certainly did and certainly do.

That's why this site has rules.

Like Geoff said, there are plenty of other forums out there to post and read jokes (crude and offensive or not), and to debate about global warming, politics and any other inflammatory topics that have no place on IceInSpace.

IceInSpace is unique - always has been and always will be. It's our rules, and our tolerance, and our friendship and community, that set us apart.

Good luck in your future.

[DavidTrap]

Well put Mike - nothing wrong with having standards.

DT

[mental4astro]

As far as special interest forums go, I doubt anyone will find a more open and inclusive one as IIS.

The mistake I have made is "taking ownership" of it. I have on several occassions.

Alas it does take a cold shower to reawaken one to refocus on the purpose of this site. I've taken a few after also thinking "bugger this, I'm off...".

I don't agree with many things posted here. I've formed opinions about other members. Yet, I can still offer debate to them, whether they are open to it or not. If they do, great. If not, too bad. You can't please everyone, even though MY opinion IS the ONLY one that MATTERS, :rolleyes: !!!

I still enjoy it.

Thanks for it Mike et al.

[jjjnettie]

See Trevor, you're not alone.
We can relate to what you are feeling.

[multiweb]

Take it easy mate. It's been too hot in WA lately. Relax and looking forward to a lot of imaging for 2011. :thumbsup:

[TrevorW]

It's not the fact the joke was removed but the fact I wasn't given the courtesy as to why, then when I questioned and try to debate the issue this was also removed, I don't like that type of dictatorial approach and never will.

Lack maturity, I doubt it young man, and making such a comment about a fellow forum member in the open, which in itself is a breach of TOS, I find more offensive than you may have found my joke.

I've been on this earth a lot longer than you and have seen and done things that you probably never will, those that may have found it offensive would be IMO immature and in the minority.

All the best

[avandonk]

Every now and again I push the rules until they break. I will not go away after I have done this, just retreat 'til next time.

I do not feel at all personally aggrieved just disapointed that my 'extreme' views cannot be tolerated by the general community by rules we all agree to on joining.

If you feel that the rules are wrong then change them from within the organisation.

Until then I will still participate and if I transgress so be it.

Bert

[dugnsuz]

Deep breaths Trevor - your input is most welcome here (IMHO)
Take care whatever you decide to do.
Doug

[marki]

Okay Trev so we know the site has become PC central but with all the different opinions and values represented by the membership I imagine there is little choice. But hey there is always PM's if you think your post wont be kosher. There's a whole new world in PM's :P:D.

Mark

[leon]

I'm no prude by any stretch of the imagination, however I have lingered on some of the other Astro sites that are open to anyone, even joined one and left the next day.

I even use a few choice words from time to time, not here I might add, but privately.

Some of these sites should be closed down for the filth and language allowed openly, and they back all this by saying, "we are all adults and can say what we want" if you don't like it go away.

Trevor I prefer it here with some rules and regulations, and a truly family orientated forum, others may not, hang in there mate and cool down, I especially enjoyed your input from time to time. may not always agree, but that is life.

Leon

[RB]

I just like to add Mark that this site has always maintained it's core values and rules.
From the day that I joined I remember these basic rules and when Mike asked me to become moderator he ask me, and the other mods, to uphold his wishes to keep this site up to these standards.
And from the feedback we get on the forum and in private the majority of members like it that way too.

We don't always get it right, sometimes we may slip up and reverse our decisions and sometimes we also like to join in the fun.
We're only human.

But members need to understand that at the end of the day we are here to help Mike and Terry run this forum to the respectable level of their wishes and maintain an even handed approach towards all members as best we can.

I think this has partly helped make IceInSpace the success that it has become.

Regards
Andrew

[strongmanmike]

Are these offensive..? :question:

See Trevor, take a deep breath and put it in perspective, you love it here you know you do, tomorrow it will all seem like a silly cuffuffle :thumbsup:

[Octane]

I've had several posts removed without any warning, Trevor. It's no biggie.

I get a bit hot under the collar sometimes, especially towards one individual, but, he was a negative curmudgeon and deserved it. :D

Cheer up, dude, and stick around! We're here to enjoy astronomy, when the clouds allow us.

Note the rules are there to keep the site running the way it has been all these years -- to a particular level. Just cop this one and move on -- there's no point getting worked up and inciting personal attacks over an indiscretion; yours, theres, or whoevers.

H

[marki]

Thats pretty much what I was implying Andrew but remember when the moderators sometimes join in it can cause a little confusion as to what is acceptable and what is not.

Cheers

Mark

[RB]

With all due respect Mark, I think you know exactly what is acceptable and what is not, and if it's something we join in on, it's usually not to the level of contravening the TOS.
If we ourselves find that we've overstepped the mark we moderate our own posts too, you may not see it, but we do.

If, on the other hand, you see one of our posts which you feel is offensive then all you need to do is report the post as well, simple.

[Barrykgerdes]

Oh dear I am terribly offended by that attrocious picture. I think it should be removed and the person who posted it should be banned from posting for the next 10 seconds.:lol::lol::lol:

Barry

[Barrykgerdes]

Hi

I too have had posts removed without warning. No big deal I just try to curb my enthusiasm for next time.

I think the moderators do a wonderful job of keeping this forum in order. I know what it is like as I am a moderator on the unwired forum where we have to endure all sorts of abuse from unhappy customers. These people do give us a hard time sometimes because they don't understand that we are not actually part of unwired although the forum is financed by them and are just users or former users trying to pass on knowledge that may help them.

We do remove the offensive material but keep a copy in our private section and try to write explanation of our actions to the posters by PM's

Barry

[mozzie]

or they should never be allowed to post that head again:lol::lol::lol:

[casstony]

I think it's important to remember that the moderators are not having a go at anyone when they remove a post - they see a mass of posts and remove a small number without regard to the author - thus we shouldn't feel personally offended if a post is removed.

I feel safe here making a post that may be pushing the TOS, knowing that the post will be removed rather than my membership being revoked.

[miki63au]

Hm, a dangerous subject. Half of my life was under a communist regime,
so I very sensitive of censorship. Even to escape from the dictatorship was illegal. My political view is formed accordingly. Anything red is a no-no in my book. And yes I'm a (A)GW "sceptic" . (the 'A' in the AGW!!)
I follow reason, and not dogma/faith. If I see fraud, I name it. Back in the coms. they would bash my had for that. I stand by my principals.

However, nobody ask me to join in. It was MY choice.
It is a private enterprise of Mike, and he set the rules. I have a choice.
I accept.
(Except when I pissed and political/AGW issues come up..... sorry).

Off course I do take the political/AGW debate to elsewhere.

Mick.

ps: sorry for a less than perfect English, the spell check not picking up my accent :)

[snowyskiesau]

Like Barry, I'm a moderator on another forum and have found that no matter what action you take, or fail to take, you can't win. It all comes down to following the guidelines/rules as laid down by the forum owner both as a user and as a moderator.

I must say, I've never come across a offensive posting on IIS, I have on the other hand, come across a lot of posts that I didn't undestand :)

I'd like to see a message go to the poster advising them of the reason for the deletion, even if it's just a standard TOS type message. Is there an option is vBulletin to do this?

[el_draco]

Yep, and the majority of us appreciate the moderation. As in many situations, there are conflicting points of view and they can, and should, involve open discussion but there are also people who like to stir the pot for the so called "fun" they get out of it.

Moderators are the umpires in this group and the basic reality is that we either abide by their decision, No argument (in public at least...), or leave. :thumbsup:

Rom

[PeterM]

Bravo Bert, very well put. I think many relate to this and plead guilty I do. What is important is the chill pill and that this site remains well moderated to
keep us all here for the reasons IIS was established.

PeterM.

[marki]

Yep especially when it comes to people pushing the smelly old AGW barrow ;):P:D. Mods need to apply the TOS to that one everytime it comes up, usually very quickly.

Mark

[marki]

Andrew I am pretty sure most people who post and know they may have taken it a little too far self moderate. I know I certainly do and will go back and change or delete my post and I have seen many others do the same when I have been on here late at night. Just for the record I have no problem with the moderation on this site and in general think you guys do it very well. As many have suggested a simple notification of removal and reason for such action to the poster affected would be very helpful and in general would diffuse situations such as these. If I stuff up both accidently or purposely I would like to know why so I could avoid repeating it in the future.

Cheers

Mark

[RB]

Thank you everyone for understanding our position and for your replies.
I think discussions like this are helpful now and then to clarify things and create a better understanding all around.

As moderators we do send PMs in cases where we feel we really do need to explain our actions.
Sometimes it involves a lot of our personal time and we sometimes feel we may not need to send a PM on simple matters.
Please forgive us if that is the case, but we do try to inform when it's important.

Anyway we hope people don't take things too personally because as Casstony said we see and read a mass of posts each day and it's not like we go after certain individuals on purpose.

Thanks again everyone and may we all have a Happy New Year and clear skies.

Best Regards
Andrew

[TrevorW]

In conclusion I have no qualms about a post being deleted if I feel I truly had breached site TOS, a joke is a joke, it was more witty than crude.

As a member of 4 years not 3 as prev stated with over 4000 posts I felt it would have been IMO polite to advise me why the offending post was deleted via a PM.

However in this case I did not receive that courtesy and when asking why albiet in another post that was quickly squashed without fair hearing.

I felt offended that I was not treated in a manner a long standing contributing forum member should have been, a courtesy I would give to another in a similar situation

I no doubt will return to this site when my I come back down off my high horse, it jsut may take a little while, as I truly enjoy the banter we as a community share.

PS: I am also a moderator, image judge, and newsletter editor on a couple of other sites.

[Octane]

Trevor,

A private message to any moderator online at the time would have sorted the situation out, methinks!

H

[TrevorW]

H, remember I'm not the one that deleted the post, I'm the victim not the other way around, common courtesy goes a long way to ensure we stay within the rules

[jenchris]

- that was my beef too.
I still read the posts, but I no longer want to join in

[Octane]

But, if you're constantly spamming, is a moderator required to explain each and every removed post? What a time consuming job.

H

[Ephemeral]

[QUOTE=Octane;673976]But, if you're constantly spamming, is a moderator required to explain each and every removed post? What a time consuming job.

I read Trevor's comments personally I couldn't see anything that implied he was spamming or had been so how did you come to this conclusion or where you referring to someone else???

[Octane]

John,

The latter.

H

[iceman]

There has certainly been occurrences where myself or other moderators have neglected to PM the poster when deleting a thread or post. Sometimes it's been because it was obvious, or maybe we just forgot, or were in a hurry and didn't have time.

In any case, I agree that it's a common courtesy that we should get back in the habit of ensuring we do on a regular basis. I've asked the moderators to remember to PM the poster when they delete a thread or post. And I'll do the same.

I apologise for when this hasn't happened.

Also remember, starting new threads that ask "Why was my thread/post deleted" *always* get deleted. If you have any questions about why action by a moderator was taken, PM a moderator or PM me.

[asimov]

Well, I left here a few years ago because I had it figured there was no 'freedom of speech' as such.

As it turns out, there IS freedom of speech, it's just how you word things that count. Hindsight is 100% correct.

It's all a learning experience.

As an ex mod from another forum, I can safely say it is a very tough job. You can't please everyone 100% of the time, so don't bother trying. Your going to ruffle a few feathers no matter how hard you try to please.

One has to abide by every forums TOS.

I have no idea if Trevors thread/post broke the TOS here or not, I never saw it & I'm not even going to speculate on it.

Good luck to ya Trevor, if you decide to call it quits - OR stay, the choice is yours entirely:thumbsup:

[GrahamL]

Message boards have lots of gaps in the communication process
in which a lot of meaning can get lost or missunderstood or not acknowlaged imo

Yes , I see your point Trev , a little courtesy would likely
help understand whats wrong , without having to ask .

It would also be most helpfull for those of us with mid life dementia
in that we know to keep looking for that insightfull and witty post thats somehow become lost on the board somewhere;)

[multiweb]

I only post on IIS becaused I feel it's sheltered from all the cybercrap. I like the community, the photos, advices and all astro related stuff and the tight moderation here. Personally I think it's just right. There needs to be a set of rules and boundaries. They won't suit everybody but it's up to us to adapt. I don't find them restrictive at all. They're in place for a reason. Stop escalation. Moderation here is pretty swift and accurate. No complaints about it. I've been posting on both sides: breaking the rules or winging about something I didn't like and they always took action in a fair way. Occasionaly people get peed and leave then come back and it's all back to normal. So I reckon if they come back IIS is not such a bad place to be. :thumbsup:

[Alchemy]

A site needs some rules otherwise chaos ensues, one of the most difficult things I have found is the "tone"of a comment, something said face to face is indicated by expression, looks body language etc, a typed message doesn't have that confirmation of indication, and sometimes people can take offense when none was intended.

I am reasonably critical with images an give an honest opinion, but without malice, I have found in life you will improve more if pushed along, and the quality of images here on IIS is outstanding.... Perhaps as a result of continually trying to do better as each new image sets a new standard.

Most of us have strong opinions in some areas and others the opposite opinion, moderation keeps things on a reasonably civil tone.

Jokes...... Some like em some don't. Can't please everyone so don't get too upset about it.

[AdrianF]

I read the original post referred to in this thread. Was the post deleted because of the c word?

Adrian

[RB]

Time to move on guys, Mike and I have explained the situation and the reasons for the action.

Cheers.